Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[draugril]

And since we have now Botani (and Saberon) in Kalimdor... you can totally do it. I could see them even make one or both of them into an allied race.

A world revamp could definitely run with this.

[Raetary]

Well duh.
The Shadowlands are where souls end up in, so naturally (heh) the Lifelands/Gardens would be where souls would be made, before they are sent out into the great dark to continue the cycle.

As for the mortal realm, they are already starting to establish it to be some sort of grand cosmic Nexus.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Exp..._A37J_-_Part_4

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And since we have now Botani (and Saberon) in Kalimdor... you can totally do it. I could see them even make one or both of them into an allied race.

I would sacrifice a kidney if that meant i could play a Botani.

Absolutely love their design and i've always had a thing for plant people.

[Kiivar86]

If it makes you feel better then SL is a perfect case study of why an entire expansion set on Argue would get tedious after a while. Sure you would learn more about it, but you would also be stuck there narratively for 2 years of wow.

Much better to set the expansion on Azeroth with thr cosmic stuff as the spice on top, then go full blown on that theme for the last patch to cap it off.

Eh, I think it could work. One way or another we're "stuck" somewhere. People used that exact same argument against Pandaria back in the day (before opinion turned in its favor).

I'm not opposed to going to other worlds or realms. I mean, hell, the very first expansion was precisely that (and so was WoD, though less said about it, the better).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'm going to just go a different route and wonder what 9.2 is going to be. Not that I don't think 9.3 is dead but...it might make it easier to see where the future is going.

[Zyrinx]

Well duh.
The Shadowlands are where souls end up in, so naturally (heh) the Lifelands/Gardens would be where souls would be made, before they are sent out into the great dark to continue the cycle.

As for the mortal realm, they are already starting to establish it to be some sort of grand cosmic Nexus.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Exp..._A37J_-_Part_4

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I would sacrifice a kidney if that meant i could play a Botani.

Absolutely love their design and i've always had a thing for plant people.

+1 million for playable Botani, that would be great. I guess Saberon could be cool too.

[Hellspawn]

I think Botani would make an interesting ally for Night Elfs... One is close to nature... the other is nature fanatic like... the nature version of dark iron dwarf.

[Raetary]

They wouldn't really be fanatic tho.
The Botani are as dangerous and unpredictable as they are due to Draenor having a ton of Spirit on the planet.
Causing Life to grow out of control, whereas the elements are rather calm.

On Azeroth its the opposite, the world soul consumed most of the Spirit on the planet, causing the elements to go haywire but Life to be stable.

Unless Blizzard throws that out of the window or just forgot about it, i could see a recruitment questline where we have to help out a groupt of Botani that struggle to adapt and are relatively peaceful.

[Lady Atia]

I really cannot imagine them going from Shadowlands - Pantheon of Death to Lifelands (aka Realms of Life) - Pantheon of Life in the next expansion. This would be hilariously bad planning in every aspect, especially when we considered how poor the reception to Shadowlands is. I don't expect Blizzard to be this ignorant and tone deaf, so at best we might get a patch or two out of it, where the main setting is entirely different.

The problem with setting is, what do we have left on Azeroth? Right now when we're talking about that it's a) Revamp or b) Dragon Isles, both options are rather limited (the one clearly being a 1% chance and the other just being so... basic?). Floating Dragon Isles where flying is mandatory from the start sounds awesome, but if it's neither a) nor b), what could Azeroth offer besides that? Undermine sounds so irrelevant that I don't expect anything from it, so... another secret continent like Pandaria? How likely is that after all these years and after all that's happened?

Well, you talk about the same defs who thought it would be great to switch the theme of WoD from Orcs to Fel right before an Expansion about the Legion. Or wait, they actually did the same with MoP > WoD with SoO lol.

[TomatoBisque]

Eh, I think it could work. One way or another we're "stuck" somewhere. People used that exact same argument against Pandaria back in the day (before opinion turned in its favor).

I'm not opposed to going to other worlds or realms. I mean, hell, the very first expansion was precisely that (and so was WoD, though less said about it, the better).

The problem with a location like Argus as an entire expansion vs. somewhere like Pandaria or the Shadowlands is there's no variety on Argus. The entire planet is controlled by the Legion with a small pocket of resistance. You wouldn't be able to have small sidestories meeting and helping out locals like you do in every other expansion because there are no friendly locals, it's just a completely hostile area.

In Pandaria, the Pandaren had a big civilization and we went and helped them out in every zone, while also meeting other friendly races like the Hozen/Jinyu or the grummles, and allies of convenience like the Klaxxi. On Argus it'd just be... the army of the light, no variety in culture. And then on Pandaria, we also had a variety in enemies. The Sha, the Mantid, the Mogu, minor threats like the Yaungol and saurok. In an Argus expansion you'd just have the legion (and maybe some of ethereals) because you can't realistically have other enemies there.

like, people complain about orc fatigue from WoD but an Argus expansion would be 1000x worse

[Makorus]

I'm going to just go a different route and wonder what 9.2 is going to be. Not that I don't think 9.3 is dead but...it might make it easier to see where the future is going.

9.2 is obviously going to be Zereth Mortis, which will, judging by what we have seen so far, have something akin to Isu Architecture from Assassins Creed. Depending on whether it is the last patch or not, the last boss will either be Anduin or the Jailer, and depending on if its the last patch or not, the Jailer will either try to invade Azeroth and succeed, or we stop him.

If he is the last boss, Gorribal will be used somehow by an Avatar of Azeroth.

[Hellspawn]

They wouldn't really be fanatic tho.
The Botani are as dangerous and unpredictable as they are due to Draenor having a ton of Spirit on the planet.
Causing Life to grow out of control, whereas the elements are rather calm.

On Azeroth its the opposite, the world's soul consumed most of the Spirit on the planet, causing the elements to go haywire but Life to be stable.

Unless Blizzard throws that out of the window or just forgot about it, i could see a recruitment questline where we have to help out a groupt of Botani that struggle to adapt and are relatively peaceful.

I imagine in the case of Azeroths death at the end of SL this could free the spirits, or the life lands itself provide too many spirits (for some reason).
But I think Botani would still have some of their characteristics regardless of that fact just not less extremely/evil.
If the expansion starts in Kalimdor there has to be something wrong there... maybe after Sargeras sword gets removed all the spirits escape to Kalimdor and hyper charges life on that continent... (maybe a giant version of the well of eternity would re-emerge)

[Nyel]

Well, you talk about the same defs who thought it would be great to switch the theme of WoD from Orcs to Fel right before an Expansion about the Legion. Or wait, they actually did the same with MoP > WoD with SoO lol.

I mean it worked as the last patch was the introduction to the upcoming expansion. This wasn’t the case in BfA (shame). In Legion it was rather pathetic how Sargeras stabbing Azeroth lead to BfA, but whatever… I think if the last patch sets the tone for the next expansion, it’s not hurting the game overall. It’s just the overload of specific stuff that makes it too much and players get sick of it. This is happening in Shadowlands right now, where 9.1 was just more of 9.0 which people already didn’t like that much. Now imagine this for 9.2 again. And then possibly for the entirety of 10.x just in a different color.

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Ooh, now that's an interesting idea I didn't think of! Maybe it will show how souls are made.

I think it would be a neat twist in an infinite cycle of life - living - death. But what role do the other four cosmic powers play then? And what is Elune then, the counterpart to the Eternal Ones or above them? If she’s above, who’s the counterpart for Zovaal, Primus & Co.? It’s too much new lore and I think it would cause the same problems as Shadowlands in that regard. Although the idea sounds nice.

[Sondrelk]

The way a lifelands would likely work in regards to the mortal world would likely be that the mortal world is just a byproduct of the transmigration of souls. We are told in the new lore book that the cosmic powers were created, whereas the lesser stuff like the mortal world just started appearing as a byproduct.

The issue would likely be that the Shadowlands is overexplained, which leaves further questions for a lifelands. Ideally a system like this would be that the dead eventually moved to reincarnation some form, but that would require a retcon in this case.

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Eh, I think it could work. One way or another we're "stuck" somewhere. People used that exact same argument against Pandaria back in the day (before opinion turned in its favor).

I'm not opposed to going to other worlds or realms. I mean, hell, the very first expansion was precisely that (and so was WoD, though less said about it, the better).

I would argue the issue is that we need something that grounds us to the core story we like. Some might not care at all, and for those a pure Argus expansion might work, but for others the removal of Azeroth from the main story would present a layer of removal from the story that would not be noticeable immediately, but which would slowly build to eventually become annoying to deal with.

In this case there is also the simple issue of all zones looking extremely distinct, which looks good at a glance, but which becomes tiring to look at when you are stuck there for a while.

[Kiivar86]

The problem with a location like Argus as an entire expansion vs. somewhere like Pandaria or the Shadowlands is there's no variety on Argus. The entire planet is controlled by the Legion with a small pocket of resistance. You wouldn't be able to have small sidestories meeting and helping out locals like you do in every other expansion because there are no friendly locals, it's just a completely hostile area.

In Pandaria, the Pandaren had a big civilization and we went and helped them out in every zone, while also meeting other friendly races like the Hozen/Jinyu or the grummles, and allies of convenience like the Klaxxi. On Argus it'd just be... the army of the light, no variety in culture. And then on Pandaria, we also had a variety in enemies. The Sha, the Mantid, the Mogu, minor threats like the Yaungol and saurok. In an Argus expansion you'd just have the legion (and maybe some of ethereals) because you can't realistically have other enemies there.

like, people complain about orc fatigue from WoD but an Argus expansion would be 1000x worse

See, I don't agree, I think there's plenty of possibility of variety. Though I do get your point.

I still think Argus could have done for a full expansion pretty easily.

I would argue the issue is that we need something that grounds us to the core story we like. Some might not care at all, and for those a pure Argus expansion might work, but for others the removal of Azeroth from the main story would present a layer of removal from the story that would not be noticeable immediately, but which would slowly build to eventually become annoying to deal with.

In this case there is also the simple issue of all zones looking extremely distinct, which looks good at a glance, but which becomes tiring to look at when you are stuck there for a while.

There has to come a point where we simply can't adventure anywhere else on Azeroth, though. They can only hide so many landmasses before it gets absurd (and it has long passed absurd).

And I don't get that issue you use, either. Distinct looking zones somehow become tiring? As opposed to several zones all looking alike? I feel I'm missing something here, so my apologies.

[Hitei]

I think it would be a neat twist in an infinite cycle of life - living - death. But what role do the other four cosmic powers play then? And what is Elune then, the counterpart to the Eternal Ones or above them? If she’s above, who’s the counterpart for Zovaal, Primus & Co.? It’s too much new lore and I think it would cause the same problems as Shadowlands in that regard. Although the idea sounds nice.

Death's ruling structure was 5 Eternal Ones. Order's ruling structure was 7 Titans. Chaos... I guess true to its nature doesn't even appear to have an intended ruling heirarchy. It's greatest force was the Legion and the Legion was lead by Eredar, who were regular (im)mortals, empowered by Sargeras, who is actually part of Order's pantheon acting on information from the Nathrezim, who are actually a secondary creation of Death's pantheon, so seemingly none of its structure was planned out by the First Ones.

Which makes trying to find comparisons rather difficult. Elune could be the sole ruler, she could be one of many and the one who just happens to be well known on the mortal plane.

Also you're trying to think of the Life and Death cycle as the fundamental part (since it's the one that involves us the most) but it's possible that cycle is just coincidental and not particularly important. We know from the Void side of things and how Naaru work that a similar cycle exists between the Light and Void. Sargeras' existence would also suggest that there might be something similar between Order and Chaos.

Rather than there being one system where everything has a role, it's possible the forces were simply created and shaped with the intent for there to be a balancing act, with no greater purpose than holding each other in check and doing what they do. Perhaps the entire thing was just a literal, rather than metaphorical machine, where the cosmic forces are like a complex reaction being kept stable to power something the First Ones had need of--so there was never a "this is the cycle of life and death and how the other forces support it", instead the individual lives and their cycles were arbitrary products of setting up the balance for the cosmic forces.

[Sondrelk]

See, I don't agree, I think there's plenty of possibility of variety. Though I do get your point.

I still think Argus could have done for a full expansion pretty easily.



There has to come a point where we simply can't adventure anywhere else on Azeroth, though. They can only hide so many landmasses before it gets absurd (and it has long passed absurd).

And I don't get that issue you use, either. Distinct looking zones somehow become tiring? As opposed to several zones all looking alike? I feel I'm missing something here, so my apologies.

All the zones look very distinct and thematic. This means however that I t starts to look increasingly artificial the more you look at it. Humans are after all not living in a blue forest, or gothic castles.
With more grounded zones it's easier to get immersed. You look at the forest and think that this is a forest like the ones you have likely seen already. With zones like Bastion you have to first mentally accept the zone as "reality" before you can get immersed. It's an additional layer of fake you have to accept. You have to get past that it is a game, that it is stylized, and how you control the game in addition to accepting theh zone itself. With more grounded zones you just have to accept the first layers.

From a story perspective you also have to mentally make the connection how this all ties back to Azeroth, which makes it difficult to accept how this is World of Warcraft.


Zones looking less distinct is a definite con for zone variety when it is on Azeroth, but it also makes it easier to go from one zone to the next without having to mentally readjust to the new visuals.


When wow runs out of landmasses the can just revamp. They already recycled outland once into Draenor, so it isn't nearly as impossible a feat as one might think on a smaller scale.

[Hitei]

All the zones look very distinct and thematic. This means however that I t starts to look increasingly artificial the more you look at it. Humans are after all not living in a blue forest, or gothic castles.
With more grounded zones it's easier to get immersed. You look at the forest and think that this is a forest like the ones you have likely seen already. With zones like Bastion you have to first mentally accept the zone as "reality" before you can get immersed. It's an additional layer of fake you have to accept. You have to get past that it is a game, that it is stylized, and how you control the game in addition to accepting theh zone itself. With more grounded zones you just have to accept the first layers.

From a story perspective you also have to mentally make the connection how this all ties back to Azeroth, which makes it difficult to accept how this is World of Warcraft.


Zones looking less distinct is a definite con for zone variety when it is on Azeroth, but it also makes it easier to go from one zone to the next without having to mentally readjust to the new visuals.


When wow runs out of landmasses the can just revamp. They already recycled outland once into Draenor, so it isn't nearly as impossible a feat as one might think on a smaller scale.

It sounds to me like what you're saying is we need a way to keep things grounded and realistic but also varied and fantastic, and I think the answer you're looking for is cave expansion.

More seriously though I think a floating Dragon Isles would handle that balance nicely.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

cave expansion.

Cave expansion? Sign me up.

[Black Rider]

Well duh.
The Shadowlands are where souls end up in, so naturally (heh) the Lifelands/Gardens would be where souls would be made, before they are sent out into the great dark to continue the cycle.

As for the mortal realm, they are already starting to establish it to be some sort of grand cosmic Nexus.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Exp..._A37J_-_Part_4

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I would sacrifice a kidney if that meant i could play a Botani.

Absolutely love their design and i've always had a thing for plant people.

I love this kind of Stuff (Expedition Report A37J - Part 4)

[Sondrelk]

It sounds to me like what you're saying is we need a way to keep things grounded and realistic but also varied and fantastic, and I think the answer you're looking for is cave expansion.

More seriously though I think a floating Dragon Isles would handle that balance nicely.

I would say it's more that we shouldn't have an expansion that doesn't have a direct link to Azeroth, looks alien in subtle (or not do subtle) ways, and whose story feels like it came out of the blue with only the vaguest sense that the characters present are involved.

SL failed on all these fronts. It doesn't look familiar enough to make me feel like this takes place in the same world as wow, it is in fact disconnected from Azeroth, with only the shattered sky over Torghast and a smattering of known characters in Oribos to remind us of where we came from, and the story feels like a spin-off more than the next chapter in the ongoing saga.

Dragon isles would at least unquestionably be on Azeroth, with characters we know that are integral to the ongoing struggle. So the dissonance between that expansion and wow as a whole would be far less egregious.