1. #7501
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    yes, propaganda should be combated.
    endus is correct in saying that these people saw the facism and were like "don't care", or "yes please."
    now where do you go? you can call it facism till you're blue in the face and it doesn't change anything. meanwhile they're still out there voting for facists.
    Frankly, you can look at past fascist regimes for the only workable answers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements

    Italy/Germany/Japan in WWII; Ousted through military force.
    There's a bunch of Axis-related fascist regimes I'm going to skip over, since it all boils down to the above.

    Portugal from '33-'74; military coup overthrew the government, leading to the installation of the current governmental model once things had been quieted down

    Spain from '36-'75 under Franco; Slow decline of control over decades of brutality, followed by Franco restoring the monarchy as he died; Spain's fascist regime only ended because its dictator died of natural causes and did not wish to maintain his regime.

    So, of the fascist regimes the world has seen, there's really one example where it was reformed over time with the explicit cooperation of its dictator, Franco. The rest? There was one solution. And that solution was, frankly, liberal use of violence.

    That's what happens if fascists seize power. If they don't? Well, look at all the countries that have seen fascist movements which went nowhere. Those were opposed largely through condemnation or ridicule. Seems pretty functional to me. The best way to fight fascism is to make sure it never gains power.


  2. #7502
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    He's trying to garner enough votes to pass a bill.

    That's not even remotely what a "bipartisan" approach to legislation looks like, where you'd be getting majority support for bills by both parties.

    If Biden had strong enough support in the House and a majority in the Senate, he wouldn't need to even consider pulling in Republican votes.
    yea he wouldn't have to worry if he had a strong enough majority. but thats not the case, and he may well lose that majority in the near future. hes gambling that his current strongarm will pay off enough that he will get that majority or at least remain the same.
    a post pandemic boom in the meantime could lead to a surge of support. maybe. seems less and less likely that it will be completely over soon.

    now what happens if the dems lose the midterm, in your opinion?

  3. #7503
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The problem with Republicans is that they are no longer the GOP.
    This is exactly why I use such labels as "Party of Trump" and "rank-and-file Republicans". Not all those who sexually identify as "Republican" are members of the rabid fanbase. Did you see what Cindy McCain said about her own state's recount?

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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    it would be one thing if these farmers were actual mom and pop operations but those barely even exist anymore as is.
    And what @Fugus meant, if I may be so bold, is that the biggest recipients of welfare/universal health care would be the companies that can continue to pay poverty wages, and not offer benefits. Although, if everyone had Medicare (or something) on taxpayer money, it can and probably would fold into corporate taxes, and a discount would be given to those that insured employees. Wal-Mart is likely terrified of this.

  4. #7504
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Frankly, you can look at past fascist regimes for the only workable answers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements

    Italy/Germany/Japan in WWII; Ousted through military force.
    There's a bunch of Axis-related fascist regimes I'm going to skip over, since it all boils down to the above.

    Portugal from '33-'74; military coup overthrew the government, leading to the installation of the current governmental model once things had been quieted down

    Spain from '36-'75 under Franco; Slow decline of control over decades of brutality, followed by Franco restoring the monarchy as he died; Spain's fascist regime only ended because its dictator died of natural causes and did not wish to maintain his regime.

    So, of the fascist regimes the world has seen, there's really one example where it was reformed over time with the explicit cooperation of its dictator, Franco. The rest? There was one solution. And that solution was, frankly, liberal use of violence.

    That's what happens if fascists seize power. If they don't? Well, look at all the countries that have seen fascist movements which went nowhere. Those were opposed largely through condemnation or ridicule. Seems pretty functional to me. The best way to fight fascism is to make sure it never gains power.
    hard to compare a military takeover with our current situation.

    we have already had a facist movement gain power, though, with facist politicians and their supporters still out and about. only the explicitly criminal ones have been thrown in jail.

    if trumps supporters had been more numerous or prepared in storming the Capitol they would have pulled it off completely.
    our systems remained barely intact enough to stop it, but its by no means certain for the next time.
    support for said facists has only diminished a bit in these past years of people calling them out at every opportunity.

  5. #7505
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Earlier today, North Korea declared that Biden's policy was hostile and accuses Biden of "building itself up for an all-out showdown with North Korea".

    "And of course, Biden responded with an all-caps tweet, threatening fire and fury like they've never seen before?"

    ...no. That's just stupid. Why would he do that?

    "Oh, then surely he immediately professed his love for North Korea and visited their fast food hamburger restaurant?"

    No, if anything, that's even dumber. A spokesperon handwaved it with a statement while Biden kept his focus on things that actually matter.

  6. #7506
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    you know perfectly well that there are certain hot button issues that make people not vote democrat even if they like some dem policies.
    Yes, and those hot button issues happen to revolve around the Republican party openly endorsing bigotry.

    idk, whats considered an acceptable source on deradicalization studies for you?
    Somewhere that isn't a literal conservative think tank, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  7. #7507
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    now what happens if the dems lose the midterm, in your opinion?
    Then legislative lockdown happens.

    And if the Republicans win in 2024, fascism expands.

    Neither of these are surprising. But there's no way to prevent it other than by opposing those pushing for it.

    It's entirely possible that the USA slides into fascism and there's little anyone can do about it. That doesn't mean greasing the slide is a legitimate stance to take.


  8. #7508
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    But there's no way to prevent it other than by opposing those pushing for it.
    Indeed. Kind of suspicious when people claiming to be independents claim that Democrats should allow fascism to expand by giving the fascists another chance. The word I would use is "fascist" since there is no middle ground, but everyone here can pick their own.

  9. #7509
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yes, and those hot button issues happen to revolve around the Republican party openly endorsing bigotry.

    Somewhere that isn't a literal conservative think tank, lol.
    have you done much research on combating bigotry? the go-to method isn't "you're an asshole, blocked."

    Research into similar groups tells us that, if QAnon followers are to leave the world of conspiracy theories, they need a dignity-preserving path forward. Extremist groups are already working to fill the Q-shaped void by recruiting QAnon believers to their own causes, making it urgent that better alternatives step up. That requires understanding the needs and motives of QAnon followers and providing a viable “off-ramp” from the QAnon world view.

    ...

    We already see white supremacy groups intentionally working to recruit disillusioned QAnon followers in their online spaces, offering a humiliation-free path of acceptance and radicalization. Some followers are also shifting to the belief system of groups like the Sovereign Citizens Movement, whose ideas had crept into the QAnon mythology. There is now a great risk for QAnon followers to become more extreme by devoting their energies and time to these more extreme groups.

    ...

    But there is also an opportunity to bring them onto a path leading back to facts and reality. Research shows that merely insulting or humiliating cult members is unlikely to lead to defection. Leading followers from QAnon requires an off-ramp from QAnon, and Trump, that preserves their dignity and offers purpose that will fulfill some of the emotional and psychological needs that the QAnon community was formerly satisfying.

    Because distrust of liberals and the media was fundamental to Trump and Q, it falls to conservatives to engage the QAnon followers. Conservatives can have some credibility and an opportunity, especially if they look for real issues that connect to the underlying concerns of the QAnon base. If they can also offer online communities with online activities that make the followers feel valuable and smart—a major attraction of the QAnon world—they could successfully give followers an out that leads them back to a space of truth. Unfortunately, there are no conservative groups obviously stepping up on Q-based social media to make this offer yet.
    https://www.wired.com/story/opinion-...ivot-point/amp

    For all the psy-ops used to suck people into a cultic group, experts say it takes just as much savvy and precision to help them out. Pat Ryan, another former cult member-turned-deprogrammer or exit counselor, says when a family hires him to meet with a loved one, his first step is to do a kind of intervention on the family. He implores them to change their tone, to be less adversarial or less mocking. It's not only because that's counterproductive, Ryan says, but also, if he gets the family to back off a bit, he scores instant points with the loved one he's ultimately trying to reach.
    https://www.npr.org/2021/03/02/97297...iracy-theories

    so while it sucks to have to "play nice", the alternative is losing more people to further radicalization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Indeed. Kind of suspicious when people claiming to be independents claim that Democrats should allow fascism to expand by giving the fascists another chance. The word I would use is "fascist" since there is no middle ground, but everyone here can pick their own.
    ah yes, "we should make efforts to deradicalize people who get caught in facist ideologies & politics" is the real facist endgame lol.

  10. #7510
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    How do you plan on “deradicalizing” the cult leaders?
    I don't know which is funnier:
    1) him responding to me, when I told him I was done responding, or
    2) me saying "some people are fascist sympathizers" and he said "that's me!"

  11. #7511
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I don't know which is funnier:
    1) him responding to me, when I told him I was done responding, or
    2) me saying "some people are fascist sympathizers" and he said "that's me!"
    i've been called that multiple times already in this thread. or are you just being passive aggressive?

  12. #7512
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    have you done much research on combating bigotry? the go-to method isn't "you're an asshole, blocked."


    https://www.wired.com/story/opinion-...ivot-point/amp


    https://www.npr.org/2021/03/02/97297...iracy-theories

    so while it sucks to have to "play nice", the alternative is losing more people to further radicalization.

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    ah yes, "we should make efforts to deradicalize people who get caught in facist ideologies & politics" is the real facist endgame lol.
    The big difference appears to be that you want to de-radicalize the extremists, whereas I and a lot of others are satisfied enough to just outvote them.

    Also, the process of deradicalization does not, in any way whatsoever, oblige us to accept a drift towards fascism at the political level in some misbegotten pursuit of "bipartisanship". These are two separate things.

    Maybe you want the fascists to come back to their senses. I'm fine just holding them accountable for their choices and actions. I'm not going to oppose you in your efforts, but it's an entirely separate issue to bipartisanship.


  13. #7513
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    How do you plan on “deradicalizing” the cult leaders? The members of congress weren’t swept up, they created the policies.
    you deradicalize the people who voted them in, and don't use fashy tactics in governing because "well it worked for them."

    also, i thought dems were about listening to the experts on things.

  14. #7514
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    you deradicalize the people who voted them in, and don't use fashy tactics in governing because "well it worked for them."
    And there's the colossally ridiculous "both sides" horseshit at the core of your argument.

    There's nothing "fashy" about the Democrats.


  15. #7515
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The big difference appears to be that you want to de-radicalize the extremists, whereas I and a lot of others are satisfied enough to just outvote them.

    Also, the process of deradicalization does not, in any way whatsoever, oblige us to accept a drift towards fascism at the political level in some misbegotten pursuit of "bipartisanship". These are two separate things.

    Maybe you want the fascists to come back to their senses. I'm fine just holding them accountable for their choices and actions. I'm not going to oppose you in your efforts, but it's an entirely separate issue to bipartisanship.
    we've already seen the trail of how abandoning bipartisanship led to the current situation. how suddenly everyone in the opposing party is "the enemy" no matter if they are just dabblers or full on believers.

    i mean, i have never supported a republican in my life and people are calling me a facist sympathizer for saying "i like bidens plan and i don't think all repubs are evil."

    "in theory, we support bipartisanship!"
    l o l.

    imagine the reaction of someone who was maybe a little conservative and has heard all these stories about how "liberals label literally everything facist so much that they are like the boy who cried wolf."

    you ever wonder why theres so few active posters here anymore?

  16. #7516
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    we've already seen the trail of how abandoning bipartisanship led to the current situation.
    Flat no. That's nonsense.

    Democrats have only recently started to reject bipartisan governance as an ideal, and pretty much entirely because of the extremism demonstrated by Trump and his party. It did not exist prior to Trump in any appreciable sense, so there's no way you can try and put that cart before the fascist horse.

    how suddenly everyone in the opposing party is "the enemy" no matter if they are just dabblers or full on believers.
    Who said that?

    You keep making shit up, man.

    i mean, i have never supported a republican in my life and people are calling me a facist sympathizer for saying "i like bidens plan and i don't think all repubs are evil."
    It isn't about how you've voted, which we have no way to verify in any case.

    It's about the fascists you keep asking us to sympathize and work together with.

    imagine the reaction of someone who was maybe a little conservative and has heard all these stories about how "liberals label literally everything facist so much that they are like the boy who cried wolf."
    Someone who's "maybe a little conservative" would be, by way of example, Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton.

    And yes; propaganda that lies to people who refuse to educate themselves to the facts will radicalize those people. Those people aren't "maybe a little conservative", they're far-right enough to be rejecting mainstream centrist news sources to deliberately and exclusively seek out propaganda that confirms their prejudices.

    you ever wonder why theres so few active posters here anymore?
    Because World of Warcraft is a declining game and there's been a slow bleed of users for literally years?


  17. #7517
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Flat no. That's nonsense.

    Democrats have only recently started to reject bipartisan governance as an ideal, and pretty much entirely because of the extremism demonstrated by Trump and his party. It did not exist prior to Trump in any appreciable sense, so there's no way you can try and put that cart before the fascist horse.
    correct. which is why i'm only recently concerned about it. and thats after seeing old newts words literally echoed on this forum many times by "leftists."

    Who said that?

    You keep making shit up, man.
    oh right, bullshit insinuations don't count.
    It isn't about how you've voted, which we have no way to verify in any case.

    It's about the fascists you keep asking us to sympathize and work together with.
    don't listen to me, listen to the people who are actually experts on such matters.
    Someone who's "maybe a little conservative" would be, by way of example, Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton.
    maybe objectively? in american politics they're considered middling. joe bidens platform is one of the most progressive this country has ever seen. and hes a conservative to you. let that sink in.
    And yes; propaganda that lies to people who refuse to educate themselves to the facts will radicalize those people. Those people aren't "maybe a little conservative", they're far-right enough to be rejecting mainstream centrist news sources to deliberately and exclusively seek out propaganda that confirms their prejudices.
    you want to outvote the facists... how many times have i seen "independents don't exist or matter" here. any who claim to be are sus! you're either completely onboard with everything the dems do or you're a facist.
    do you not hear yourselves?
    anyone with marginally independent leanings is apparently a facist sympathizer. or you can just say "commie sympathizer, try out how that sounds.
    who exactly are you you supposed to be winning over by preaching to the choir?
    Because World of Warcraft is a declining game and there's been a slow bleed of users for literally years?
    yea im sure thats it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Biden’s plan to redefine bipartisanship from including obstructionists in Congress to the will of the people? To pass infrastructure in spite of the GOP standing in the way?
    i think i've explained ad nauseum how this is a low stakes effort to let repubs try and move on from trump, by going after things both bases heavily support.

  18. #7518
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    yea its been hard to keep track of several different stuff going at once.
    heres the thing; i know many people who voted for trump and generally vote conservative. its true some (especially that we see in the news stories etc) are unreachable, but many are not. they are simply rather amoral "chaotic or lawful neutral" people at heart and have a hard time empathizing outside their experience and don't like to think too hard. they vote for trump because "he will increase military spending and lower taxes". thats it.

    what biden is doing with his plan is a very good maneuver to financially incentivize these types of people to support him.

    this means there will be pressure on the GoP to act in a more bipartisan manner, as well as the threat of "if we pass it without you anyways and people love it you are going to take the hit".

    well and good, but some things are better handled this way than others.
    I think you are fooling yourself here, I am of the cynical opinion that if you voted for Trump twice there's no universe where you would vote democrat. Trump has been very open about what he is so that means there is just one issue that determines your vote and nothing else matters. Everyone is selfish but this is a choice these are the same type of people who would vote for the devil if he had a R next to his name.

    I judge people more on what they do not what they say and voting for him twice tells you everything there is to know about these people politically. Trump didn't create the divisions we have he is the product of decades of right wing media misinformation and the GOP trying to keep their grasp on power by appealing to their worse nature. It's foolish to think you can reverse decades of programming that easily, it also doesn't help that we have so many problems in this country like income inequality which is the source of it. However in order to address anything that maybe just maybe might reach those lost souls you have to arm strong the senate to pass legislation.

    It's a catch 22 Biden's plan might be the only way to heal the country and get rid of the divisions we have however there's zero chance the GOP is going to let it pass because it means their political death. There can't be any bipartisanship that's why divisions are getting worse, the GOP understands they can only hold power by making things worse that is their brand. If you have any ideas on how to get around this problem I am all ears because it sounds you just think this will magically work itself out in the future. While it might because the GOP base is old it might be too late by then because the road we are heading on is fascism and that's not hyperbole. It's already been shown the right wing has no issues overthrowing democracy if it means they are in charge so democrats need to stop being so soft because whatever it takes is their motto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i think i've explained ad nauseum how this is a low stakes effort to let repubs try and move on from trump, by going after things both bases heavily support.
    You mean like the stimulus bill that zero republican voted for even with 80%+ approval rating for their base?

  19. #7519
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    you want to outvote the facists... how many times have i seen "independents don't exist or matter" here. any who claim to be are sus! you're either completely onboard with everything the dems do or you're a facist.
    do you not hear yourselves?
    anyone with marginally independent leanings is apparently a facist sympathizer. or you can just say "commie sympathizer, try out how that sounds.
    who exactly are you you supposed to be winning over by preaching to the choir?
    yea im sure thats it.
    It's pretty clear to me that you're completely oblivious to just how far off the deep end the Republicans have gone over the last twenty or so years. Our center is not the center in any traditional sense. The center (where most independents fall on the political compass) in America is deeply conservative and that includes some of the Democratic party. If you seriously think the act of pointing out the radicalization of the American right is the problem, then maybe you're just feeling a little cognitive dissonance of your own beliefs. Nobody here is saying all American conservatives are fascists, but for all the bullshit they peddle about the "radical left" they have no interest in policing their own ideological brethren. In other words, they're cowards and hypocrites.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  20. #7520
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    imagine the reaction of someone who was maybe a little conservative and has heard all these stories about how "liberals label literally everything facist so much that they are like the boy who cried wolf."
    Well, we don't need to image the reaction of Republican voters after the attempted insurrection; Tens of thousands of voters drop Republican affiliation after Capitol riot
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    you ever wonder why theres so few active posters here anymore?
    The Trump supporters insisted they'd win, and when that didn't happen went all sour grapes. We do see the occasional alt-account spamming his whine and shakes fist crying about a Trump comeback.
    Frankly, I prefer to believe that most of them were at the Capitol on a particular day and were arrested.

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