Winter queen origins & relatives

[tommyhil622]

Yes, you disagree with it. But you're not giving any reasoning for your disagreement.

You keep saying that but I've said it multiple times already not sure how else to rephrase. You're making up headcanon to make the lore not contradict. That's what i disagree with. Not sure how many ways i have to say it. Which is why i said agree to disagree since we are going in circles.

[huth]

You keep saying that but I've said it multiple times already not sure how else to rephrase. You're making up headcanon to make the lore not contradict. That's what i disagree with. Not sure how many ways i have to say it. Which is why i said agree to disagree since we are going in circles.

Even if we just go by the lore as laid out by Blizzard, there is no contradiction. Val'kyr could still be assigned to Bastion by the Arbiter and become Kyrians as per the normal path of ascension.

You have to lay out why that cannot happen for your claim to have any weight instead of just accusing others of making things up.

[tommyhil622]

Even if we just go by the lore as laid out by Blizzard, there is no contradiction. Val'kyr could still be assigned to Bastion by the Arbiter and become Kyrians as per the normal path of ascension.

You have to lay out why that cannot happen for your claim to have any weight instead of just accusing others of making things up.

Please provide a reference when a Valkyr became a Kyrian. Going in circles here. The burden of proof lies with you.

[huth]

Please provide a reference when a Valkyr became a Kyrian. Going in circles here. The burden of proof lies with you.

No, i don't, because you're the one making the extraordinary claim that it cannot happen. I'm just suggesting them going through the normal procedure of going to Oribos and getting assigned to Bastion by the Arbiter, as does every other soul.

You're the one making the extraordinary claim that Val'kyr cannot possibly get sent to Bastion, so you need to provide prove this is the case.

[draugril]

Freya was more likely to arrange the Emerald Dream than to create it entirely. This is a titan's dream and it was before Freya.
The Titans gave the Aspects their power through the Keepers as intermediaries.
Freya did not create Wild Gods, they appeared in her enclaves due to the energy of the Well of Eternity.

The first are the creatures who created the Shadowlands and they are associated with the Pantheon of Death and the Pantheon of the Titans. These are not the Titans themselves, as the Titans know almost nothing about the Shadowlands.

We've been overtly told, however, that the Eternal Ones are more powerful than Titans. So while it remains a workable analogy in terms of internal relationships, this begins to break down when you try to infer any kind of relation between the two groups.

[tommyhil622]

No, i don't, because you're the one making the extraordinary claim that it cannot happen. I'm just suggesting them going through the normal procedure of going to Oribos and getting assigned to Bastion by the Arbiter, as does every other soul.

You're the one making the extraordinary claim that Val'kyr cannot possibly get sent to Bastion, so you need to provide prove this is the case.

I'm actually not making any claim. I'm still waiting for you to reconcile the opposing pieces of lore. With additional lore, which doesn't exist. You made the claim that there's no discrepancy, therefore you have the burden of proving said claim. Again agree to disagree or continue this endless circle. Actually i'll end it because it's derailing the thread, i'll respond to the original theme of this thread because this tangent isn't going anywhere.

- - - Updated - - -

If anything I would say the Winter Queen and Freya have the most in common. Freya was the one to create the Emerald Dream, Freya who empowered the Dragon Aspects, and Freya that created the Wild Gods too. It was all power given by Eonar but that doesn't get the credit.

The Keepers and the Eternal Ones are capable of very similar feats. Both are able to create stable afterlife dimensions (Emerald Dream, Halls of Valor, Helheim). Both can essentially manufacture intelligent life within their realms. Denathrius makes Stoneborn like Loken made Iron Vrykul. The Keepers are basically directly responsible for all native life on Azeroth. Both are powered by an energy source called Anima. Denathrius vs. Thorim is a better power level comparison based on how strong he is in-game.

First Ones ordered the Shadowlands and then created the Eternal Ones to run the place.
The Titans ordered Azeroth and then created the Titan Keepers to run the place.

So the Winter Queen regarding Freya as one of her sisters, and Ysera her pet, makes a lot of sense.

It could make actual literal sense if the First Ones = The Titans in which case Eonar would have been responsible for both Freya and the Winter Queen. That would be a boring twist to the secret of who the First Ones are though.

While I agree that Freya has more in common, I think the issue is whether or not what the Winter Queen said was literal or not. If it's literal, then Freya and/or Eonar are immediately disqualified since the Winter Queen is not a Titan. However, since we don't know the true nature of Elune so she's still can be a candidate of being the WQ's sister. At this point in time we just don't have enough information to vet any of the parties. I still think Elune has the greater claim if the "sister" was meant in the literal sense. If it was symbolic in nature, then it opens the door for Freya and Eonar with Freya having a stronger claim. We'll see how it goes.

[huth]

I'm actually not making any claim. I'm still waiting for you to reconcile the opposing pieces of lore. With additional lore, which doesn't exist. You made the claim that there's no discrepancy, therefore you have the burden of proving said claim. Again agree to disagree or continue this endless circle. Actually i'll end it because it's derailing the thread.

You just repeated your claim that there is a discrepancy, which is only the case if Val'kyr can't somehow join the Kyrians. Since failing everything else, there's still the possibility of simply going through the normal process of being a dead mortal and getting sent to Bastion, which we already know is possible, i don't see how that could possibly be the case, so you're making an extraordinary claim here.

And the burden of proof lies with those making extraordinary claims, aka "things work differently than observation and prior knowledge suggests". Nobody would ask you to prove that an apple falls down when you drop it. They'd expect proof when you claim it doesn't.

[tommyhil622]

You just repeated your claim that there is a discrepancy, which is only the case if Val'kyr can't somehow join the Kyrians. Since failing everything else, there's still the possibility of simply going through the normal process of being a dead mortal and getting sent to Bastion, which we already know is possible, i don't see how that could possibly be the case, so you're making an extraordinary claim here.

And the burden of proof lies with those making extraordinary claims, aka "things work differently than observation and prior knowledge suggests". Nobody would ask you to prove that an apple falls down when you drop it. They'd expect proof when you claim it doesn't.

Again facts are not claims lol. Chronicles says that Valkyr became spirit healers. That is now false because the Kyrians are spirit healers, Fact. That's not a claim that's a fact. You went on to claim that you can easily explain the connection. Now you're trying this quasi logic to turn on its head to make it seem i made a great claim lol. Perhaps make a new thread and we can discuss further.

[darkoms]

We've been overtly told, however, that the Eternal Ones are more powerful than Titans. So while it remains a workable analogy in terms of internal relationships, this begins to break down when you try to infer any kind of relation between the two groups.

Who say that?

[huth]

Again facts are not claims lol. Chronicles says that Valkyr became spirit healers. That is now false because the Kyrians are spirit healers, Fact. That's not a claim that's a fact.

Except that you then need to claim that Val'kyr cannot become Kyrians and thus spirit healers for it to contradict the Chronicles. So by positing that there is a contradiction, you implicitly make a claim that Val'kyr cannot become Kyrians. Since we already know that all or at least most Kyrians are former mortals, we have no reason to assume they can't.

So yes, you do make a claim, and your fact doesn't actually cause a contradiction.

[tommyhil622]

Except that you then need to claim that Val'kyr cannot become Kyrians and thus spirit healers for it to contradict the Chronicles. So by positing that there is a contradiction, you implicitly make a claim that Val'kyr cannot become Kyrians. Since we already know that all or at least most Kyrians are former mortals, we have no reason to assume they can't.

So yes, you do make a claim, and your fact doesn't actually cause a contradiction.

This is getting old and extremely repetitive, we're talking passed each other. You keep making stuff up which isn't a good way to debate.

[[Apok]]

This is getting old and extremely repetitive, we're talking passed each other. You keep making stuff up which isn't a good way to debate. .

What exactly has huth made up, apart from you just stating that they have made stuff up because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Chronicle is written from the titan perspective, they may not know the exact workings of the shadowlands, simply have some idea of the connections and through observations of their own experiences.

You need to provide a concrete source that Val'kyr can never become kyrians.

[tommyhil622]

What exactly has huth made up, apart from you just stating that they have made stuff up because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Chronicle is written from the titan perspective, they may not know the exact workings of the shadowlands, simply have some idea of the connections and through observations of their own experiences.

You need to provide a concrete source that Val'kyr can never become kyrians.

Please quote me saying that Val'kyr can never become Kyrians. Let me know when you find it.

[huth]

Please quote me saying that Val'kyr can never become Kyrians. Let me know when you find it.

Maybe actually read my post? It states exactly why your claim requires it.

If Val'kyr can become Kyrians, then Val'kyr can become spirit healers and there is no contradiction.

[draugril]

Who say that?

I think it was Ion? Something during the interviews referred to the Jailer as "Titan Plus Plus."

[Feanoro]

I think it was Ion? Something during the interviews referred to the Jailer as "Titan Plus Plus."

I can't help but wonder how he meant that term. In certain programming languages, there's an operator ++, pronounced plus plus. Attached to a variable, it simply means "take the variable and add 1 to it". So the question I ask when I see that is did he just use a term he picked up from his programmer colleagues without considering most people wouldn't understand it? When I see the term, it's just "one level up from Titan", but I assume for non-programmers, it sounds a bit more impressive.

As an example (deliberately incomplete, for any fellow coders):

// This line creates a piece of storage in memory for integer values.
int example = 0;

// Print out the value of "example", namely 0.
Console.Writeline(example);

// Add 1 to example.
example++;

// Print out the value of "example", which is now 1.
Console.Writeline(example);

[tommyhil622]

I can't help but wonder how he meant that term. In certain programming languages, there's an operator ++, pronounced plus plus. Attached to a variable, it simply means "take the variable and add 1 to it". So the question I ask when I see that is did he just use a term he picked up from his programmer colleagues without considering most people wouldn't understand it? When I see the term, it's just "one level up from Titan", but I assume for non-programmers, it sounds a bit more impressive.

As an example (deliberately incomplete, for any fellow coders):

// This line creates a piece of storage in memory for integer values.
int example = 0;

// Print out the value of "example", namely 0.
Console.Writeline(example);

// Add 1 to example.
example++;

// Print out the value of "example", which is now 1.
Console.Writeline(example);

I'm not sure if that's what he meant via the coding aspect like i++ -> i=i+1 but i think the sentiment is the same. That he's stronger than your average Titan is probably what he tried to convey. But it's possible that it's what he had in mind when he said ++.

[DemonHunter18]

I can't help but wonder how he meant that term. In certain programming languages, there's an operator ++, pronounced plus plus. Attached to a variable, it simply means "take the variable and add 1 to it". So the question I ask when I see that is did he just use a term he picked up from his programmer colleagues without considering most people wouldn't understand it? When I see the term, it's just "one level up from Titan", but I assume for non-programmers, it sounds a bit more impressive.

As an example (deliberately incomplete, for any fellow coders):

// This line creates a piece of storage in memory for integer values.
int example = 0;

// Print out the value of "example", namely 0.
Console.Writeline(example);

// Add 1 to example.
example++;

// Print out the value of "example", which is now 1.
Console.Writeline(example);

Eternal Ones were described to be more like Titan Keepers and based on how weak Archon is, it's pretty clear they aren't Titan level.

Jailer was beaten by the combined might of all Eternal Ones so he isn't Titan level.

also, that statement comes from Betanuser.

I trust him as much as I trust my mother making shit up about WoW and she doesn't even know what that is.

so even if he meant Titan level as in strength then it's factually incorrect.

[huth]

Eternal Ones were described to be more like Titan Keepers and based on how weak Archon is, it's pretty clear they aren't Titan level.

Maybe weakened Titans after Antorus, but even then i'd be skeptical. If she was Titan level, the final fight in spires would probably have been about getting Devos far enough away that the Archon can do anything about her without accidentally trashing the place.

[darkoms]

I think it was Ion? Something during the interviews referred to the Jailer as "Titan Plus Plus."

He say Jailer it's titan level threat