Rescue Jaina from Torghast??

[Ragnarohk]

What about us saving Baine? Or Thrall? Makes 0 sense either as Alliance players.
It's just cause of gameplay.

When we saved the Horde from the Horde in an asian inspired expansion hmmm

[agentsi]

What about us saving Baine? Or Thrall? Makes 0 sense either as Alliance players.
It's just cause of gameplay.

You're right, we shouldn't be saving ANY OF THEM.

Why the bad guys and almost EVERY fucking villain in every game or movie doesn't just kill folks that are possible saboteurs of their plans right away when they have the chance, blows my mind. That type of writing is so beyond awful and it pisses me off every time.

[Super Dickmann]

Absolutely shit deal. Deal i would rather shove up the dealer’s ass then take. If Tyrande died and Delaryn led the night elves because Malf was in some “healing coma” i would have rejoiced. Characters are nothing, but “racial/factional narrative” is everything there is and will be. Being broken and shat on for drama and pathos is the worst thing that can happen to a race. Being later cucked out of meaningful retribution/revenge (because Tyrande’s angery “rampage” will end up in her death or defanging again) is even worse. Its not just humiliating its degrading. I stopped playing WoW in 8.1 because of that and no longer play any Blizz games for the same reason. It poisoned whole franchise for me.

Characters are the faces of the race and how they're cast casts the race itself. But even disregarding that, the Burning is nowhere near the worst the Night Elves got, especially given the way the fight itself is cast. That'd still be joining the Alliance in a vassal relationship in the first place. The overall racial narrative is only improved by reverting to the traits that made it marketable and interesting in the first place and that have been moved away from. You can understand this when it comes to the Horde - which is why you dismiss the losses of territory, but ignore this when it comes to the Alliance in equivalent cases, which is why we rarely get anywhere in these talks. Especially when the worst end point when it comes to Tyrande is reverting to what she already was for fifteen years now followin the race's collective vasectomy in Vanilla.

[Lolites]

2) No desire to make up for that or to at least take down the “bad banshee who made us do it”. I would have tossed Jaina’s head at Lor’Themar back then. No questions asked. Horde cant even bring themselve to admit that sylvanas was wrong and evil and done fucked. They relish in what she did.

it literaly lead to rebelion and sylvanas downfall...
while jainas ethnic purge led to mild scolding from varian...

and sure ve have to compare, what sylva did was way worse, and deserve worse punishment, doesnt mean Jaina should not be punished at all... or Genn for stormheim, or dwarves for wiping tauren tribe in barrens...
see the pattern? punishment for horde leaders doing shit is weak, but punishment for aliance doing shit is NONEXISTENT

[VladlTutushkin]

it literaly lead to rebelion and sylvanas downfall...
while jainas ethnic purge led to mild scolding from varian...

and sure ve have to compare, what sylva did was way worse, and deserve worse punishment, doesnt mean Jaina should not be punished at all... or Genn for stormheim, or dwarves for wiping tauren tribe in barrens...
see the pattern? punishment for horde leaders doing shit is weak, but punishment for aliance doing shit is NONEXISTENT

Genn was punished "in advance" by his Kingdom being a blighted ruin, people homeless refugees and his son dead. He only became a thing because of what horde did to him. Those dwarves are all dead, since Cata. Jaina was sent to Hell by her mother and only survives because Alliance Hero rescued her. For a dozen elfs who resisted arrest? Fitting enough.

[TickTickTick]

Lore-wise only Alliance players get Jaina out right?

I mean we Horde players Orcs, Trolls and Blood Elves saving her from that place is pretty wierd.
Zandalari players that serve Talanji makes really 0 sense. And for Blood Elves you can also question them getting her out after her Dalaran bloodbath.
Forsaken lost their home and city large part was her doing, and Orcs trusted her with Theramore being neutral and they attacked again in Cata.

Maybe it is just me but as a Horde player if one Alliance character deserves hell its Jaina.

Maybe you didn't notice, but we just travelled to the afterlife in which no mortal soul should ever appear. We just saw one of the big bad guys of the universe and we saw his domain. We also know that Sylvanas, the Horde's last warchief, didn't care about Horde when working with the Jailer.

Maybe the circumstances are bad enough that you'd have to be delusional to apply your petty mortal quarells in such place? Notice how there's not a single smallest questline revolving around AvH in Shadowlands. If you can't aknowledge it and work with the opposing faction against something that intends to destroy not only our lives, but also afterlives, then you should be a peon collecting lumber, not a champions and representative of the mortals.

[VladlTutushkin]

Characters are the faces of the race and how they're cast casts the race itself. But even disregarding that, the Burning is nowhere near the worst the Night Elves got, especially given the way the fight itself is cast. That'd still be joining the Alliance in a vassal relationship in the first place. The overall racial narrative is only improved by reverting to the traits that made it marketable and interesting in the first place and that have been moved away from. You can understand this when it comes to the Horde - which is why you dismiss the losses of territory, but ignore this when it comes to the Alliance in equivalent cases, which is why we rarely get anywhere in these talks. Especially when the worst end point when it comes to Tyrande is reverting to what she already was for fifteen years now followin the race's collective vasectomy in Vanilla.

Because we dont even know what there is happening in Hillsbrad - there were always a few Alliance forces/small bases , it is not some staggering change. We dont even know if they restored Southshore or just rebuilt a dwarven camp horde kept trampling over. While we had a bombastic devastation of Ashenvale in a most drool-inducing horde powerfantasy to ever exist. Horde players often fantasied about crushing through Ashenvale and burning the "shitty tree hippies" and their "dumb tree" to the ground and they GOT THAT. As long as War of Thorns is not measured by an equal pile of mangled, broken and desecrated horde corpses with horde women wheeping around it and cheap pathos dripping onto the soil there will be no measure of "equality" between the horde and Alliance. And it dosent even have to be a horde content, it can be a purely Alliance quest chain. It dosent matter, the fact that it NEEDS to happen matters.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Book that few people will read and that can be called non-canon or retconned at the whim of a developer and thats harder then to retcon game scenes itself because it simply easier to “burn the book” then work with video, gameplay and files and whatever they do.
And if i could i would have traded a “Teldrassil level event” for hundreds of pointless pages that are not even considered canon by devs depending on the mood. Hell we learned that Darkshore was a victory ONLY BECAUSE some dude was lucky enough to have a chance to ask Blizz that directly. If that dude was instead buying a hotdog or picking his nose we would have never had that “victory”.

The ingame events aren’t any harder to retcon or make non canon then a book they have been doing it nonstop since wrath and likely before.

Books are just as canon as any thing we see in game until they say they aren’t not before.

[Trollokdamus]

Thing is, you don't get to decide anything. Outside of a few exceptions, you follow your faction's leadership. And the Horde leadership wants you to save Jaina because she's an ally (at this point in the story) and a valuable asset to be used in battles to come. Not to mention saving her is beneficial for maintaining peace which is in the Horde's best interest right now.

[VladlTutushkin]

You're right, we shouldn't be saving ANY OF THEM.

Why the bad guys and almost EVERY fucking villain in every game or movie doesn't just kill folks that are possible saboteurs of their plans right away when they have the chance, blows my mind. That type of writing is so beyond awful and it pisses me off every time.

Well in case of Jailer it actually explained by the fact that he wants to mind-break them and turn them into slaves or weapons for his army.

[Verdugo]

Maybe you didn't notice, but we just travelled to the afterlife in which no mortal soul should ever appear. We just saw one of the big bad guys of the universe and we saw his domain. We also know that Sylvanas, the Horde's last warchief, didn't care about Horde when working with the Jailer.

Maybe the circumstances are bad enough that you'd have to be delusional to apply your petty mortal quarells in such place? Notice how there's not a single smallest questline revolving around AvH in Shadowlands. If you can't aknowledge it and work with the opposing faction against something that intends to destroy not only our lives, but also afterlives, then you should be a peon collecting lumber, not a champions and representative of the mortals.

Who cares about this "threat", just another fodder for 30 mouthbreathers in LFR.

[Tharivor]

I am speaking how saving Jaina is far leas jarring then that. Again considering how she was amongst main peacemongers that ended BfA and “saw how wrong she was”.

This is never communicated to Horde characters though. Jaina never apologises, makes amends, or even comments on any of her actions during her Horde-hating phase.
Constantly saving her as a Blood Elf player when she literally launched a pogrom against your people and hasn't even mentioned it since is far worse than saving Thrall as Alliance: if the worst you can say about him is what he threatened to do while in a mad rage as opposed to what he has actually done, you got off easy.

[VladlTutushkin]

Who cares about this "threat", just another fodder for 30 mouthbreathers in LFR.

Gameplay =/= plot.

[CalamityHeart]

I don't think about it as rescuing a major Alliance/Horde leader. I think about it as taking a potential weapon or tool away from the Jailer. Because that's all we're doing, really.

Fuck the faction war and everything involving it. After BFA, if we never get a faction war expansion again, it'll be too damn soon. I don't care that Baine and Thrall are Horde, I care that the Jailer sees them as valuable for some reason, and as such, it's in everyone's best interest that whatever value their souls(?) have, the Jailer fails to benefit from it. That's what this expansion has so far come down to, at its core.

Same goes for Jaina and Anduin. "Why would I bother saving Alliance leaders from an eternity of torture when I'm Horde?" Because if you don't, there's a good chance that we're all fucked, Alliance, Horde, and Azeroth entirely, and given the fact that you, the player character, are one of the rare few Maw Walkers available to Bolvar and the forces of Azeroth, there's no real choice but to set aside factional difference and act for the good of everything. BFA is behind me. I'm perfectly content to leave it there.

[Verdugo]

Gameplay =/= plot.

Of course, its Gameplay > plot. Duh.

[VladlTutushkin]

This is never communicated to Horde characters though. Jaina never apologises, makes amends, or even comments on any of her actions during her Horde-hating phase.
Constantly saving her as a Blood Elf player when she literally launched a pogrom against you and hasn't even mentioned it since is far worse than saving Thrall as Alliance: if the worst you can say about him is what he threatened to do while in a mad rage as opposed to what he has actually done, you got off easy.

And Saurfang was one of the head orcs who piled human corpses in Stormwind and burned prisoners alive. He also was a mastermind and then core factor of War of Thorns, if not for him horde and sylvanas would have never reached Teldrassil. And Bwonsamdi was one of the main opponents of Alliance on Zandalar. And yet we help them and forced to hail Saurfang as great hero and honorable orc while also letting entire horde off the hook with all that "war of extermination" thing. Have to let go i guess, titans and gods know Alliance can close their eyes on genocide horde can tolerate a pogrom.
Plus Jaina's actions were among the chief contributing factors why Fourth War even ended in peace.

[Unholyground]

Factions are fucking stupid OP and Blizzard knows it, the overall worst expansion in WoW's history (BfA) was a literally a pointless faction war, it is proven to be garbage with how far the story has taken us now. I really wish they would just fucking pull the trigger an allow cross faction play already it makes zero sense holding half the player base from playing with each other.

[Tharivor]

And Saurfang was one of the head orcs who piled human corpses in Stormwind and burned prisoners alive. He also was a mastermind and then core factor of War of Thorns, if not for him horde and sylvanas would have never reached Teldrassil. And Bwonsamdi was one of the main opponents of Alliance on Zandalar. And yet we help them and forced to hail Saurfang as great hero and honorable orc while also letting entire horde off the hook with all that "war of extermination" thing. Have to let go i guess, titans and gods know Alliance can close their eyes on genocide horde can tolerate a pogrom.
Plus Jaina's actions were among the chief contributing factors why Fourth War even ended in peace.

No arguments against the stupidity of Saurfang and his "honour" from me. Although he does spend half the expansion moaning about how evil the Horde is and how terrible those actions were, which is more than can be said for Jaina. I don't think she ever acknowledges she may have done something wrong at Dalaran, though I haven't played the Alliance side of the war campaign so maybe she does there.

[VladlTutushkin]

No arguments against the stupidity of Saurfang and his "honour" from me. Although he does spend half the expansion moaning about how evil the Horde is and how terrible those actions were, which is more than can be said for Jaina. I don't think she ever acknowledges she may have done something wrong at Dalaran, though I haven't played the Alliance side of the war campaign so maybe she does there.

She literally came to conclusion that her Dad was wrong and basically killed himself by "bigotry" and spat on all her previous motivation. She went through "mindfuck hell" and saw her entire life as one huge line of mistakes. Thats about as much as Saurfang did.

[StillMcfuu]

What about us saving Baine? Or Thrall? Makes 0 sense either as Alliance players.
It's just cause of gameplay.

Makes zero sense for horde to be saving them too, but here we are.