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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    For.... what? Browsing the web, watching videos, etc? My 250$ Chromebook here does all those things just as fast as my PC or MBP. Because those dont require real horsepower.
    For compiling (and it doesn't even support java properly yet), video editing and basically everything that requires raw cpu power. It's outperforming basically every high-end cpu there is, without the software even having been properly optimized yet.

    But hey, don't take my word on it, you meme:









    And the other 100 video's of jaw-dropped people.

    Fact of the matter is that this chip is amazing and pretty much a revolutionary step. I predict it's the first one away from the horribly inefficient cisk toward risk and it's about fucking time.

    I'm sure Intel's kicking itself even harder than when they refused to collaborate on the iPhone.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2021-01-10 at 01:54 PM.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by bergmann620 View Post
    Spent a ton of money on? The Mini is less than the cost of a enthusiast gpu and power supply.

    I'm not in the guy's mind, so I don't know about what settings he really cares about, but I know lots of people who turn specific effects off to get an edge.

    And, it is amazing, just not in the way you're thinking. It's amazing that you can get a solid WoW experience out of a box smaller than a brownie tin, and at that price point. It's not amazing compared to a $1,200 gaming tower, but it's competitive with a lot of stuff in its' price range, and I can't find anything close in that form factor.
    For the same cost you get better performance. The cost of a "enthusiast gpu" isn't the objective, why are you even trying to do that stupid comparison? And about the settings, the guy is doing a benchmark, what settings he likes to turn down or not, no one cares, he can do that for himself, not while he's trying to showoff his computer benchmarking a game. Everything else you said just reads like you didn't even read my comment so go read it first instead of skipping after the first phrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Is the Mac Mini amazing as a gaming machine? Of course not. Nobody in their right mind should be thinking "hey, the best $700 I can spend for a gaming machine is a Mac Mini!"

    But all accounts seem to indicate that the M1 Macs are amazing machines "at what they are built for". There is more to computing than just gaming. When it comes to things like productivity. coding and content creation, these machines seem to be a phenomenal choice. People are finding that you absolutely can game on them, but that certainly doesn't mean that they are an ideal choice for gaming. Anyone who is saying so is either twisting the narrative to suit their needs or flat out lying.
    Read my entire post, not sure what part of it is contradicting with it being good for something that isn't gaming, the last part is pretty clear about that.

    You two couldn't stop yourselves from showing that you're clearly apple fanboys, you raged at the very sight of a fact attacking your favorite brand and didn't even realize that I never said what you're trying to attack me with, in fact, i clearly stated that the comment was about gaming since the video was about benchmarking a game. Whether the machine is good for anything else is completely irrelevant, no one is talking about "something else". The entire thread and the video i commented on is about wow performance on these machines. End of discussion.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by m4xc4v413r4 View Post
    Read my entire post, not sure wh part of it is contradicting with it being good for something that isn't gaming, the last part is pretty clear about that.

    You two couldn't stop yourselves from showing that you're clearly apple fanboys, you raged at the very sight of a fact attacking your favorite brand and didn't even realize that I never said what you're trying to attack me with, in fact, i clearly stated that the comment was about gaming since the video was about benchmarking a game. Whether the machine is good for anything else is completely irrelevant, no one is talking about "something else". The entire thread and the video i commented on is about wow performance on these machines. End of discussion.
    Dude... I am very much not an Apple fanboy. I mean... I have an iPad, does that make me an Apple fanboy? My main PC dual boots Windows 10 and Debian, so I didn't think I was some sort of Apple fanboy.

    If you want to rail on a product because you don't like it, cool, go nuts. But my point was that the majority of people here aren't saying that "this is amazing gaming machine!!!" It's just not a point people are making. People are saying that "sure, you can game on it. Here's are the sacrifices you make". Nobody is buying this as a primary gaming machine thinking it's going to be a top notch rig giving them the best detail and fps. Nobody. So railing against a narrative that doesn't actually exist is just silly.

  4. #84
    it is, in fact, a textbook Strawman

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ryjkur View Post
    I got my M1 today and it feels on par with i9-10900K + RTX 3070 combo and for 15W thats amazing. 120+ fps on WoW.
    " feels" are not benchmarks, and you're not getting 120fps at anything resembling high settings or in crowded areas

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by m4xc4v413r4 View Post
    For the same cost you get better performance. The cost of a "enthusiast gpu" isn't the objective, why are you even trying to do that stupid comparison? And about the settings, the guy is doing a benchmark, what settings he likes to turn down or not, no one cares, he can do that for himself, not while he's trying to showoff his computer benchmarking a game. Everything else you said just reads like you didn't even read my comment so go read it first instead of skipping after the first phrase.



    Read my entire post, not sure what part of it is contradicting with it being good for something that isn't gaming, the last part is pretty clear about that.

    You two couldn't stop yourselves from showing that you're clearly apple fanboys, you raged at the very sight of a fact attacking your favorite brand and didn't even realize that I never said what you're trying to attack me with, in fact, i clearly stated that the comment was about gaming since the video was about benchmarking a game. Whether the machine is good for anything else is completely irrelevant, no one is talking about "something else". The entire thread and the video i commented on is about wow performance on these machines. End of discussion.
    For the same cost you’d get worse CPU performance which you’re forgetting on purpose. And with the M1 laptops you’re also paying for amazing battery life, super high resolution screen, low weight, etc. To say the $900 M1 MacBook is a bad deal shows your anti-Apple fanboyism

  6. #86
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryjkur View Post
    I got my M1 today and it feels on par with i9-10900K + RTX 3070 combo and for 15W thats amazing. 120+ fps on WoW.
    Buying an Apple M1 makes me feel like a PC gamer without actually playing games. The Apple experience is so good that you don't even need to spend money on games guys.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Buying an Apple M1 makes me feel like a PC gamer without actually playing games. The Apple experience is so good that you don't even need to spend money on games guys.
    Careful, dont pull a muscle. You're really stretching there.
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  8. #88
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Since we're at it, I need to know why Mac users think they can game? I'm having a hell of a time setting up games on this Macbook Air. I regret not putting Linux on this thing because nothing works in Mac OS X. Minecraft is noticeably slower than it should be and if you have more than one user on the device trying to use the app then it doesn't work. To fix it I need to Get Info and give permissions but I need to open the contents first and then do it do all files and folders. Same problem for RetroArch except that the only noticeable difference is that I can't update Core Info Files. Same fix for stupid problem. The Mac RetroArch doesn't have a working N64 core since 1.9, because I guess nobody plays games on a Mac to care enough to fix it. Citra doesn't work, and that always works on Linux and Windows. Installing Wine on Mac is no different than on Linux, including needing to use Terminal. Shockingly, Terminal on Mac is just like on Linux. Winetricks doesn't work, as it lets me install stuff that doesn't stay installed. Parallels works but it eats a huge chunk of the 256GB SSD and it's slow.

    Mac OS X is just not for gaming, no matter what you guys wanna believe. Office and Photoshop works well but not games. There is clearly a lack of community interest to get games working on Mac. I'm seriously considering Elementary OS, but Roblox is the only thing stopping me from installing it. I imagine getting an M1 Mac is going to be a far worse experience for gaming. It's one thing to say you can game on a Mac, but it's another thing to do. It's a Miracle that Shadowlands was actually ported to M1 Mac, because otherwise good luck.

  9. #89
    dont get your problem.

    - got a m1 air and a m1 mini
    - installed wow on it
    - play wow on it
    - fantastic

    dont get it.

    have to add (thats a personal subjective thing): i never had so much fun playing wow like on my mac mini. the reason is that the tv stands in front of my bed. mac mini too. i lie in my bed and play wow. great.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-01-11 at 05:49 AM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Since we're at it, I need to know why Mac users think they can game? I'm having a hell of a time setting up games on this Macbook Air. I regret not putting Linux on this thing because nothing works in Mac OS X. Minecraft is noticeably slower than it should be and if you have more than one user on the device trying to use the app then it doesn't work. To fix it I need to Get Info and give permissions but I need to open the contents first and then do it do all files and folders. Same problem for RetroArch except that the only noticeable difference is that I can't update Core Info Files. Same fix for stupid problem. The Mac RetroArch doesn't have a working N64 core since 1.9, because I guess nobody plays games on a Mac to care enough to fix it. Citra doesn't work, and that always works on Linux and Windows. Installing Wine on Mac is no different than on Linux, including needing to use Terminal. Shockingly, Terminal on Mac is just like on Linux. Winetricks doesn't work, as it lets me install stuff that doesn't stay installed. Parallels works but it eats a huge chunk of the 256GB SSD and it's slow.

    Mac OS X is just not for gaming, no matter what you guys wanna believe. Office and Photoshop works well but not games. There is clearly a lack of community interest to get games working on Mac. I'm seriously considering Elementary OS, but Roblox is the only thing stopping me from installing it. I imagine getting an M1 Mac is going to be a far worse experience for gaming. It's one thing to say you can game on a Mac, but it's another thing to do. It's a Miracle that Shadowlands was actually ported to M1 Mac, because otherwise good luck.
    Ultimately, a Mac works for gaming if your end goal is to run Mac Games on it. If you stick to native games, you're fine (obviously within the realm of what a Macbook Air can handle, which for the Intel version is generally not a ton).

    Trying to get Windows games to run on a Mac will take a metric ton of effort, and the results will never be as good as if you were running on the native platform. It's not worth it. Install games from the Mac store or Mac games from Steam or WoW and you'll have a fine experience. But you can't expect to leave that lane.

    It's like picking on a AAA multiplatform title on the Switch. I frickin' love the Switch, but it's not to play the latest AAA title that exists on Playstation or Xbox. The experience will be flat out inferior. Mac gaming relies on sticking to the much more limited slew of titles available for the platform. If you want to have all the options available when it comes to computer gaming, don't go Mac (or Linux for that matter). The effort just isn't worth the results.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    For compiling (and it doesn't even support java properly yet), video editing and basically everything that requires raw cpu power. It's outperforming basically every high-end cpu there is, without the software even having been properly optimized yet.
    Do you mean high end laptops? Not cpus. It's pretty equal to new Ryzen laptop performance. Similar to the 300$ desktop cpus. The 600$ desktop cpus absolutely demolish it.
    It is really good for laptops, but it's not outperforming every high-end cpu. It is good but it's not magic. Efficiency is really it's biggest bonus, not the performance itself.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    For compiling (and it doesn't even support java properly yet), video editing and basically everything that requires raw cpu power. It's outperforming basically every high-end cpu there is, without the software even having been properly optimized yet.
    Video Editing is not solely reliant on CPU power anymore. Unless they add a solid GPU it will always be bottlenecked by its GPU not being powerful enough. Lets see what they will do with future MAC PROs and iMacs for professionals.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryjkur View Post
    I got my M1 today and it feels on par with i9-10900K + RTX 3070 combo and for 15W thats amazing. 120+ fps on WoW.
    Yeah no.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by kukkamies View Post
    Do you mean high end laptops? Not cpus. It's pretty equal to new Ryzen laptop performance. Similar to the 300$ desktop cpus. The 600$ desktop cpus absolutely demolish it.
    It is really good for laptops, but it's not outperforming every high-end cpu. It is good but it's not magic. Efficiency is really it's biggest bonus, not the performance itself.
    I was comparing it to high-end laptops that cost more than double. That said, just watch the videos, those explain the leap far better than my anecdotal experience does.


    First gen M1 outperforming the i9.

    And of course it doesn't outperform an 5600X on all fronts; the M1 is a first gen, low-end cpu. But the fact that it comes so close to a €400, high-end cpu is pretty damn impressive, Especially when you consider that the high-end M1 variants are yet to be released.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2021-01-11 at 12:14 PM.
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I was comparing it to high-end laptops that cost more than double. That said, just watch the videos, those explain the leap far better than my anecdotal experience does.


    First gen M1 outperforming the i9.

    And of course it doesn't outperform an 5600X on all fronts; the M1 is a first gen, low-end cpu. But the fact that it comes so close to a €400, high-end cpu is pretty damn impressive, Especially when you consider that the high-end M1 variants are yet to be released.
    M1 is really similar performance to Ryzen 4800H which can be had for cheaper. Of course it's hotter and less efficient in the end but still cheaper.
    5600X is also 300e, at least on most markets, it's the low-end cpu the way M1 is low-end, cheapest of it's generation.
    It is a big improvement for Apple's 1000e+ machines, but outside it AMD laptops are already really good.

    I would be happier with M1 if it came with at least 512gb ssd. Currently the 8gb ram and 256gb ssd feel so dated and paying 220e for that small upgrade is just awful. At least here the M1 Air costs 1160e base, 1600e with 512gb ssd and 16gb ram upgrades.
    Huawei Matebook with Ryzen 4800H, bigger screen and those upgrades is 1100e. It's a lot cheaper and I value 512gb ssd much more than more efficient cpu.
    Still too expensive for me since desktops are where the true value is *dab*. One day we'll get laptops we can customize again to make it cheaper.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Ultimately, a Mac works for gaming if your end goal is to run Mac Games on it. If you stick to native games, you're fine (obviously within the realm of what a Macbook Air can handle, which for the Intel version is generally not a ton).
    This is extremely limiting in terms of gaming. I imagine I can't run certain apps because I'm using an old Intel GPU, but this would work on Linux and even Windows.
    Trying to get Windows games to run on a Mac will take a metric ton of effort, and the results will never be as good as if you were running on the native platform. It's not worth it. Install games from the Mac store or Mac games from Steam or WoW and you'll have a fine experience. But you can't expect to leave that lane.
    This is why Linux gaming sucks right now because the amount of native apps is low, and Mac is no different. Wine and Steams Proton helps a lot on Linux, but these aren't really good options for Mac. As much as Apple wants to believe they could ever get anywhere near what Windows gaming is like, you do need a decent amount of Windows compatibility and performance to play games. Linux realized this and that's why there's Proton.


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    And of course it doesn't outperform an 5600X on all fronts; the M1 is a first gen, low-end cpu. But the fact that it comes so close to a €400, high-end cpu is pretty damn impressive, Especially when you consider that the high-end M1 variants are yet to be released.
    There's a pretty pissed off ex-intel engineer who thinks the benchmarks are done incorrectly. I don't agree with the guy because in the end if it's faster then it's faster. I also have no idea what he's talking about.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    There's a pretty pissed off ex-intel engineer who thinks the benchmarks are done incorrectly. I don't agree with the guy because in the end if it's faster then it's faster. I also have no idea what he's talking about.
    Yeah, I saw that one too. Funny thing is that it really doesn't matter what's on paper; Apple never cared, nor should anyone intelligent care about specs on paper. It's all about what it feels like in practice. The M1 - low-end, first gen, without proper application support, is indeed outperforming cpu's that shouldn't even be mentioned in the same category.

    Indeed, the M1 isn't the fastest CPU on the market, but I don't think anyone made that claim, thusfar. It is, however, coming too close for comfort to those CPUs and sometimes it even surpasses them in performance, again, without proper support. How can anyone not be enthusiastic about this?

    I'm quite sure that both Intel as AMD are shitting themselves right now.
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I'm quite sure that both Intel as AMD are shitting themselves right now.
    Intel has been for a while but not AMD. AMD had to redirect their production to consoles because the demand is too high. Intel is thinking of working with TSMC for making some of their chips since they're stuck at 14nm or 10nm. Their new chip is said to have an 18% IPC increase but Intel says lots of things. Intel certainly has the money and engineers to make it happen but it can't take 2 years for it to happen.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    This is extremely limiting in terms of gaming. I imagine I can't run certain apps because I'm using an old Intel GPU, but this would work on Linux and even Windows.
    Yup. This is a prime reason why a Mac isn't a viable gaming machine unless you use bootcamp and install Windows. So, obviously not an M1 Mac for your average user. It's why you can do some gaming on a Mac, but shouldn't consider a Mac a gaming machine. You have to buy in with the understanding that your selection is limited. Trying to work around those limitations requires a lot of effort and the results are not spectacular.

    This is why Linux gaming sucks right now because the amount of native apps is low, and Mac is no different. Wine and Steams Proton helps a lot on Linux, but these aren't really good options for Mac. As much as Apple wants to believe they could ever get anywhere near what Windows gaming is like, you do need a decent amount of Windows compatibility and performance to play games. Linux realized this and that's why there's Proton.
    To be fair, saying that Linux realized this is a bit of a misnomer. Linux, being as modular as it is, had users identify a flaw and try and find some solutions. I agree that Linux absolutely does this better than a Mac (though still not well) but the solutions are somewhat entangled and stepping over one another.

    Apple's approach so far seems to have been to not worry about compatibility and trying to run Windows games, and more on trying to get game developers to port their games over. The results haven't been stellar so far, but I think a good chunk of that is that Apple doesn't actually sell a goof gaming machine and anywhere near a good cost/performance ratio. People don't buy a Mac for gaming because Apple doesn't sell one. Devs therefore don't get on board because there is little RoI.

    Now, things might change as we see the successors to the M1 come out, with beefier graphics options. But again, price to performance will be important, and I don't see Apple doing anything there that would make publishers inclined to seriously look at the platform. I would love to be wrong though.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Apple's approach so far seems to have been to not worry about compatibility and trying to run Windows games, and more on trying to get game developers to port their games over. The results haven't been stellar so far, but I think a good chunk of that is that Apple doesn't actually sell a goof gaming machine and anywhere near a good cost/performance ratio. People don't buy a Mac for gaming because Apple doesn't sell one. Devs therefore don't get on board because there is little RoI.
    The problem is that Apple doesn't update their OpenGL and doesn't use Vulkan. They're not making developers lives easier by introducing another standard that wasn't needed. Mac is also not as profitable as Windows. Microsoft does have Xbox and that does influence developers to work on Windows as well. We do live in a Windows world.
    Now, things might change as we see the successors to the M1 come out, with beefier graphics options. But again, price to performance will be important, and I don't see Apple doing anything there that would make publishers inclined to seriously look at the platform. I would love to be wrong though.
    We're about to enter the APU wars that I've predicted for some time. Intel and AMD will make better APU's and it seems that Apple will have to play catch up. Graphics technology is expensive and requires a lot of patents, so it'll be interesting to see how Apple will fair. If Apple took gaming seriously then they should make a Mac Mini like console with powerful graphics in mind. This was almost a thing with the Apple Bandai Pippin and of all things it ran a PowerPC. Who would have thought that Apple had the right idea with PowerPC when the Xbox 360, PS3, and GameCube/Wii were all using PowerPC?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    This is extremely limiting in terms of gaming. I imagine I can't run certain apps because I'm using an old Intel GPU, but this would work on Linux and even Windows.

    This is why Linux gaming sucks right now because the amount of native apps is low, and Mac is no different. Wine and Steams Proton helps a lot on Linux, but these aren't really good options for Mac. As much as Apple wants to believe they could ever get anywhere near what Windows gaming is like, you do need a decent amount of Windows compatibility and performance to play games. Linux realized this and that's why there's Proton.



    There's a pretty pissed off ex-intel engineer who thinks the benchmarks are done incorrectly. I don't agree with the guy because in the end if it's faster then it's faster. I also have no idea what he's talking about.
    The video is valid in terms of the underlying subsystem which actually has larger "pipelines".
    Besides the larger L1-L3 caches compared to what is available for even HEDT chips, the memory unit aka the Unified Memory of the M1 is essentially an L4 cache and M1 basically uses its nvme disks more like a RAM. Added to this are the tons of additional custom accelerators on that SoC to perhaps deem the chip operating with a CISC type of ISA as opposed as opposed to the MIPS RISC. So it is really Apples to Oranges comparison at this point between the M1 and Intel/AMD offerings.
    This type of implementation/design is only really feasible for Apple as they are delivering a system where they don't have to be really concerned with different OEM/ODM builds. Furthermore, this type of implementation does raise concerns for vertical scalability that both the Intel and AMD has to deliver to (especially for the small/medium/large businesses that has varying system needs).

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