"Pay to win"

[Trbn]

imagine paying to NOT play the game

KEKW retards

[Farora]

Who are you to say what an mmorpg should and should not be? The overwhelming majority of mmorpgs have no sub, why didnt you mention that? The overwhelming majority of mmorpgs have some form of "convenience" purchases that allow you to level much, much faster, why didnt you mention that? The overwhelming majority of mmorpgs have mounts that can be purchased with real money, why didnt you mention that?

I think people need to realise that Blizzard payment model and systems are now the exception, not the rule, and have been for a long, long time.

The most succesful MMORPG of -all time-, didn't have it, which was Wow from Vanilla to Wrath.

[arkanon]

The most succesful MMORPG of -all time-, didn't have it, which was Wow from Vanilla to Wrath.

Most successful in what way? Because if you are going to say "it had the most subs" - thats because many mmos did and do NOT have subs. Most successful in earnings? Because I would suggest many of the p2w f2p Asian mmos have made profits that would make your eyes water.

You also seem to neglect to mention that the TCG mounts absolutely existed during this time, which sold for astronomical value in game, and where purchased with real money.

You ALSO neglect to mention Recruit a Friend - a system that almost entirely bypassed the leveling process for countless people, and offered a free mount for those willing to spend the money on it. From memory, this was introduced all the way back in TBC? I could be wrong but im pretty sure thats right. Why didnt you talk about recruit a friend, its HUGE xp boost, free levels, and mount, all at a cost?

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imagine paying to NOT play the game

KEKW retards

How is boosting to lvl 58 paying NOT to play TBC, which starts at lvl 58? Are you suggesting someone who wants to play the latest Fifa game should first play every title from 1993 - present?

[starstationprofm]

"Pay to win'ers" are almost like a religious cult these days. Any kind of in-game purchase for them, no matter how insignificant is "pay to win" for these people.

There should be NO ingame purchases.

Shiny new mount? Make it available for everyone so players can work for it ingame.

Shiny new mog? Put it behind a challenging encounter.

There is no excuse for microtransactions in a sub based MMO.

[sam86]

Most successful in what way? Because if you are going to say "it had the most subs" - thats because many mmos did and do NOT have subs. Most successful in earnings? Because I would suggest many of the p2w f2p Asian mmos have made profits that would make your eyes water.

no they didn't, wow wrath era holds that record, it was even published in newspaper in my shithole of country that a single game earns more than this fucked up shithole wrongfully called country government official economy
It is only game so far to ever achieve that, there are games that makes more profit nowadays but in 2008 that was unheard of

How is boosting to lvl 58 paying NOT to play TBC, which starts at lvl 58? Are you suggesting someone who wants to play the latest Fifa game should first play every title from 1993 - present?

since fifa every year is copy-paste of same basic since years just updated clubs rosters, u don't even need to
btw that is official info published on ea website itself

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There should be NO ingame purchases.

Shiny new mount? Make it available for everyone so players can work for it ingame.

Shiny new mog? Put it behind a challenging encounter.

There is no excuse for microtransactions in a sub based MMO.

how else will they make profit? by actually making the game and ppl play it? blasphemy
I mean ur sub is money payed so artists can work on mounts and transmog so u buy them, what, u thought u pay money to actually play and get updates? how very naive
now go pay sub so artists have cash to create more mounts and transmogs and mini pets to sell

[InflaterMouse]

Not having to level a character for 2 months? Seems pretty damn winning to me. Like seriously consider that. The boost saves average player probably 150 hours normally leveling and questing. Assume they play 2 hours a day. That would actually be like 2.5 months. That doent even take into account people don't play every day, they might play retail as well and don't play classic every day, etc etc.

Just because you aren't looting Ilidans warplaives and getting gladiator doesn't mean you aren't winning.

2 months? 150hrs? Seriously that is what you think is an average for a player leveling? You literally have to have something to win other than time in order for it to be CALLED WINNING. Regardless of what your thoughts on boosting are, pay to win it isn't. If you boosted, were given gear or the promise of gear, items only a boosted player got, a stronger character than one non-boosted or something along those lines it would be pay to win. Boosting isn't new to wow, its been around for years now and there isn't really an argument that brings facts vs feelings. The only thing that impacts the accessibility of boosting is $.

Simply put, there is nothing a person who boosts gets that a person who doesn't boost can't get. If it takes you more time to get it, you pay for that monthly with your subscription so you are still paying for it. The only thing relevant regarding boosting is time. I am working on my shaman now for TBC and started it Sunday casually leveling, not paying to have boosters boost it logged out last night at lvl 31. I work full time 60+hrs per week and have a family. Boosters have impacted my game play in a negative way exactly zero. Boosters however, keep the LFG channel absolutely full for 5 mans....not sure what else to say.

[GreenJesus]

2 months? 150hrs? Seriously that is what you think is an average for a player leveling? You literally have to have something to win other than time in order for it to be CALLED WINNING. Regardless of what your thoughts on boosting are, pay to win it isn't. If you boosted, were given gear or the promise of gear, items only a boosted player got, a stronger character than one non-boosted or something along those lines it would be pay to win. Boosting isn't new to wow, its been around for years now and there isn't really an argument that brings facts vs feelings. The only thing that impacts the accessibility of boosting is $.

Simply put, there is nothing a person who boosts gets that a person who doesn't boost can't get. If it takes you more time to get it, you pay for that monthly with your subscription so you are still paying for it. The only thing relevant regarding boosting is time. I am working on my shaman now for TBC and started it Sunday casually leveling, not paying to have boosters boost it logged out last night at lvl 31. I work full time 60+hrs per week and have a family. Boosters have impacted my game play in a negative way exactly zero. Boosters however, keep the LFG channel absolutely full for 5 mans....not sure what else to say.

Leveling faster means you start the end game grind faster. With a weekly lockout system that is everything. Pay to win for gear.

[InflaterMouse]

Leveling faster means you start the end game grind faster. With a weekly lockout system that is everything. Pay to win for gear.

If you are in a position to immediately get into that tier of content then was it pay to win or were you already at that tier of content? Faster is relative in a conversation with the only thing that is of any importance being time. That isn't the case in this game. So if you level from a fresh level 1 character and have a raid that is able and willing to drag you through content vs. having to level from 58 and do the same thing it serves the same function. And either way you earn it, it's not given to you. You get zero promises of gear, raids or anything else by having a boosted 58. Next?

[deenman]

There is no such a thing as pay to win in any wow version, simple as that. Not even gdkp, when money is obviously coming from bots. That is just another topic so I will not touch it.

Back on topic, the issue is that people get frustrated when someone else can do or figures something that they do not, getting some sort of advantage out of it. However, you have to admit that the game is integrally perfectly designed so that, realistically, everyone has the same chance to do the same things.

It is a trend. Because now you have more shop stuff, people call it "pay to win", but it is not, and you have to be a bit of a dummy or plain close minded not to realize that such thing, does not exist.

Even people buying boosts for mages to boost others for gold... how is that "pay to win", what do they won? a bit of gold? how is that a "win"? Did it also give the ma full Naxx clear?
Even people who buy gold to do gdkp don´t win anything. Unless they buy their way through a massive boost to have gear good enough to get into a Naxx gdkp... And you can´t even call it p2w then, because the gold was not obtained through the game design.

the bfa boe fiasco is the actual definition of p2w,blizzard puts extreme boe's in the game to make you buy and sell tokens,its basicaly like selling items in the shop just with an extra step

and whats worse is that its also some of the most bis items,items that all the top raiding guilds invested bilions upon bilions of gold in,all that gold didnt grow on trees,it was gold sold with tokens that others got with cash for this express reason

[InflaterMouse]

the bfa boe fiasco is the actual definition of p2w,blizzard puts extreme boe's in the game to make you buy and sell tokens,its basicaly like selling items in the shop just with an extra step

and whats worse is that its also some of the most bis items,items that all the top raiding guilds invested bilions upon bilions of gold in,all that gold didnt grow on trees,it was gold sold with tokens that others got with cash for this express reason

This is a form of pay to win yes. Because real money could be converted to in-game currency and used to by gear upgrades that benefited and made you character stronger than people who couldn't afford to the same. I would agree with you on this. I'm not sure it brought about the negative impact the pay-to-win crowd would make it seem though and mostly only effected the start of the expansion and outside of the economy impacted the top guilds with respect to each other more than the rest of the people playing the game.

[WowIsDead64]

Getting a single character to level 58 is not "winning" WoW.

That is all.

My opinion - P2W is wider term, than it's considered to be by some players. And that allows devs to constantly offset red line of what is considered to be P2W towards real P2W. Some players say, that it's P2W only when you get character power and become stronger, than other players, without putting effort into game. Sorry, but this is way too narrow vision. Because it affects competitive aspect of game only. But there are many other aspects. For example cosmetics. It's ok to buy cosmetics in, let's say, FPS games. Because it's nothing more, than customization there. But in MMORPGs collecting cosmetic items - IS PART OF GAME for some players. Saying "This game is about raids and M+, who cares about collectors?" is completely wrong. So, for such players selling better cosmetics in shop, than obtainable in game - is PURE P2W.

So, selling character boost = thinking, that leveling doesn't matter. It brings another question. Do leveling matter? At the end it's still RPG game.

And may be tomorrow Blizzard will say, that raiding doesn't matter, so there is nothing bad in selling raid gear in shop?

Conclusion: P2W or not P2W boils down to another question - does that content matter or not? In most cases answer is subjective. And I don't think, that it's right, that it's devs, who decide it on behalf of players. Because devs are prejudiced.

[deenman]

This is a form of pay to win yes. Because real money could be converted to in-game currency and used to by gear upgrades that benefited and made you character stronger than people who couldn't afford to the same. I would agree with you on this. I'm not sure it brought about the negative impact the pay-to-win crowd would make it seem though and mostly only effected the start of the expansion and outside of the economy impacted the top guilds with respect to each other more than the rest of the people playing the game.

it creates a very demoralizing bad taste in people,because of the way the game worked in legion and bfa,you had very extreme levels of rng to gear 70+ ilvls in legion,and in bfa the corruption system

the ods of you getting a bis item was in the ballpark of 0.01%,but ofc the ah was filled with those items,that someone could just buy with $$$$

meanwile,players who play normaly,will NEVER get a full set of those bis items by just playing

they literaly sold items for $$$ that you could never get yourself,its THE worst form of p2w a game can ever have

atleast if gear worked like it does in sl or tbc,it wouldnt be as bad,as the only rng factor is does it drop?and do you win the roll/council/dkp etc,its not roll the dice 25 times for every slot

[InflaterMouse]

My opinion - P2W is wider term, than it's considered to be by some players. And that allows devs to constantly offset red line of what is considered to be P2W towards real P2W. Some players say, that it's P2W only when you get character power and become stronger, than other players, without putting effort into game. Sorry, but this is way too narrow vision. Because it affects competitive aspect of game only. But there are many other aspects. For example cosmetics. It's ok to buy cosmetics in, let's say, FPS games. Because it's nothing more, than customization there. But in MMORPGs collecting cosmetic items - IS PART OF GAME for some players. Saying "This game is about raids and M+, who cares about collectors?" is completely wrong. So, for such players selling better cosmetics in shop, than obtainable in game - is PURE P2W.

So, selling character boost = thinking, that leveling doesn't matter. It brings another question. Do leveling matter? At the end it's still RPG game.

And may be tomorrow Blizzard will say, that raiding doesn't matter, so there is nothing bad in selling raid gear in shop?

Conclusion: P2W or not P2W boils down to another question - does that content matter or not? In most cases answer is subjective. And I don't think, that it's right, that it's devs, who decide it on behalf of players. Because devs are prejudiced.

Because you have a wider opinion of P2W doesn't change the mechanical definition of the phrase. Boosting doesn't fit the definition of pay to win because you don't win anything in the game. You save time, you aren't awarded anything but time. Realistically being at 58 doesn't even give you the promise of getting gear faster at end game unless you already are a part of an active raiding guild or pay for a carry which happens without a boosted 58. So I can't see an argument that makes sense on it being P2W. I am open to more discussion but still not seeing it.

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it creatures a very demoralizing bad taste in people,because of the way the game worked in legion and bfa,you had very extreme levels of rng to gear 70+ ilvls in legion,and in bfa the corruption system

the ods of you getting a bis item was in the ballpark of 0.01%,but ofc the ah was filled with those items,that someone could just buy with $$$$

meanwile,players who play normaly,will NEVER get a full set of those bis items by just playing

they literaly sold items for $$$ that you could never get yourself,its THE worst form of p2w a game can ever have

atleast if gear worked like it does in sl or tbc,it wouldnt be as bad,as the only rng factor is does it drop?and do you win the roll/council/dkp etc,its not roll the dice 25 times for every slot

I could agree with this. I didn't much care for it or what tokens did to the economy. Regarding the current boost though this really doesn't apply, and also realizing we (you and I) weren't really discussing it but it seems to be a bigger theme for this thread than any other.

[xalenthas]

i completely agree if you replace 2 weeks with 2 months. lol, in NO way as a normal adult human, you level a classic char from 0-58 in 2 weeks. thats what many ppl complain about. and tbh, i see more ppl complaining about the short pre patch timespan, than i see ppl complaining about the boost.

for me personally Blizz did exactly the wrong things to get my money. i dont give that greedy bastards money for a boost. i have no problem with the boost in general and have same opinion as OP. but i simply do not give them money. i just dont wanna support that type of company Blizz became. the second reason is this fucked up childish music video. i had a tiny bit of interesst to go back to BC (was a good time in my long wow history). but i simply have not the time to level 2-3 months nor i give them money. its just not worth for me, because i really saw everything of TBC. and in 2-3 months the realms are all empty anyway. so, its fine.

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this. so much.

Erm, if no one levels a "classic character" in two weeks, how did we have lots of Alliance level 60 Shamans running around yesterday? Even saw one kitted out in BiS including Staff from Kel'Thuzad ...

I actually did buy the boost because I never bothered levelling this time around during Classic however, I do intend to get involved with the guild for TBC. Have to say it's a bit of an experience trying to get professions levelled without access to the gold I would have made over past two years, though it is certainly "interesting".

[InflaterMouse]

Erm, if no one levels a "classic character" in two weeks, how did we have lots of Alliance level 60 Shamans running around yesterday? Even saw one kitted out in BiS including Staff from Kel'Thuzad ...

I actually did buy the boost because I never bothered levelling this time around during Classic however, I do intend to get involved with the guild for TBC. Have to say it's a bit of an experience trying to get professions levelled without access to the gold I would have made over past two years, though it is certainly "interesting".

This is exactly what I was saying earlier. How or when did the "norm" on leveling a character in classic to 58 become 2 months? I started my level 1 shaman on alliance on Sunday at around 6pm and when I logged out last night I had just hit 31 and have worked all week.

[Grimreaper]

2 months? 150hrs? Seriously that is what you think is an average for a player leveling?

Seems about right to me.

If you boosted, were given gear or the promise of gear, items only a boosted player got, a stronger character than one non-boosted or something along those lines it would be pay to win.

A boosted character is fully decked out in green quality gear and starts at lvl 58. A non-boosted character starts out at lvl 1 with just a few pieces of stat-less items. Obviously a boosted character is stronger than a non-boosted one, in your own words, it's pay to win.

[InflaterMouse]

Seems about right to me.


A boosted character is fully decked out in green quality gear and starts at lvl 58. A non-boosted character starts out at lvl 1 with just a few pieces of stat-less items. Obviously a boosted character is stronger than a non-boosted one, in your own words, it's pay to win.

So what do you win? The 31 shaman I have has better itemized gear than the boosted toons get. I am further ahead on my professions than my buddies with boosted toons and will be as ready as they will before next raid lock out to let our guild drag us through for gear.....what do you win?

[Grimreaper]

So what do you win?

Do i really need to repeat what YOU already said?

"If you boosted, were given gear or the promise of gear, items only a boosted player got, a stronger character than one non-boosted or something along those lines it would be pay to win."

You win a lvl 58 character decked out in gear that you cannot obtain elsewhere in the game.

[InflaterMouse]

Do i really need to repeat what YOU already said?

"If you boosted, were given gear or the promise of gear, items only a boosted player got, a stronger character than one non-boosted or something along those lines it would be pay to win."

You win a lvl 58 character decked out in gear that you cannot obtain elsewhere in the game.

Of course you can, you can level a character, get gear that matters and not shit gear that isn't itemized correctly for the class your playing. The gear doesn't make you stronger than someone leveling who happens to be at level 58 when you boost. If you compare a level 1 vs a lvl 58 you are taking the whole conversation in a different direction. Compare people leveling to level 58 vs a person who boosts.

The person leveling (if they know how to play the game) will have way better gear, way more gold, professions leveled, probably more mounts, earned reputation and so on. Comparing the boosted lvl 58 to a lvl 1 in a starting zone adds zero insight into this conversation. Hell my 31 shaman has better itemized gear than the boosted gear lol. The ONLY thing you get is time.

[Rageadon]

Not having to level a character for 2 months? Seems pretty damn winning to me. Like seriously consider that. The boost saves average player probably 150 hours normally leveling and questing. Assume they play 2 hours a day. That would actually be like 2.5 months. That doent even take into account people don't play every day, they might play retail as well and don't play classic every day, etc etc.

Just because you aren't looting Ilidans warplaives and getting gladiator doesn't mean you aren't winning.

2 months???? Im 52 on my sham already, gotten 8 lvls boosted total by guildmates, rest is just questing, around 2hrs pr lvl after 30...
/played is 3 days...

If you can only play 2 hrs a day you dont really care that much anyway, and ur not winning at 58