Flying tricked AGAIN

[Dhrizzle]

are these choices valid? yes.

I dont tell people what they should do or feel...

There used to be two handed tanking and people liked that, so no I see nothing wrong with that.

not sure what youre talking about with regard to this, people will always find a way to undermine challenge. also challenge isnt cut and dry as challenging for one person may be a cake walk for someone else.

Again I dont tell people what they should do... If they WANT to do that I have no issue with them trying and if they enjoy doing that then it would make sense to assume they are happy with that choice.

So you think it's fine for Prot warriors to choose a weapon that makes them take more damage and removes some key abilities.

You think just because people will try to find the easiest solution to a problem the devs should give everyone the easiest possible option, far outstripping class abilities for those issues.

You think high-end raiders will be happy getting the same rewards as LFR players, indeed they'll be happy if all raids but LFR are removed and they can choose ways to gimp themselves.

Just these facts alone show that you don't really understand much about WoW, game design in general or the tricky balancing act Blizz have to go through to make sure when they please one group they're not undermining the sense of accomplishment of another.

You still havn't answered my question, all you've done is ask questions...

If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.

Literally the fourth time I've pasted this answer, you can even click the little blue icons to see the other posts...

but I'll answer your question then explain the issue with your thinking.

Your question contradicts itself, as its doing exactly that. it gimps you in some way, so nothing has changed.

both of those are effectively the same thing and that's actually what blizz did with rested xp. at first it was a penalty and then they changed it to be a "bonus" because how you frame it affects how people feel about it. the mechanic never actually changed.

Forgetting the psychology bit as that seems to have thrown you for a loop so you forgot to answer the main part of the question, does that mean you would or wouldn't be happy if there was a "fly mode" that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies?

Now I'll try my best to explain the issue with your thinking. You've narrowed the choice down to 2 things. (there's more choices but these 2 are the ones you've basically pointed out so I'll focus on these.) The choices are playing less optimally but more fun or playing more optimally and less fun.

Or there's choice 3 - the devs balance the game in a way that trying to find the optimal way is the most fun. Which is what restricting flight has done.

[chaoticcrono]

So you think it's fine for Prot warriors to choose a weapon that makes them take more damage and removes some key abilities.

You think just because people will try to find the easiest solution to a problem the devs should give everyone the easiest possible option, far outstripping class abilities for those issues.

You think high-end raiders will be happy getting the same rewards as LFR players, indeed they'll be happy if all raids but LFR are removed and they can choose ways to gimp themselves.

Just these facts alone show that you don't really understand much about WoW, game design in general or the tricky balancing act Blizz have to go through to make sure when they please one group they're not undermining the sense of accomplishment of another.





Literally the fourth time I've pasted this answer, you can even click the little blue icons to see the other posts...





Forgetting the psychology bit as that seems to have thrown you for a loop so you forgot to answer the main part of the question, does that mean you would or wouldn't be happy if there was a "fly mode" that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies?



Or there's choice 3 - the devs balance the game in a way that trying to find the optimal way is the most fun. Which is what restricting flight has done.

You still haven't answered my question... do you even remember what my question was?

[SirCowdog]

THAT is why I like flying. because it allows me to reduce the in between of the activities I enjoy and actualy enjoy activities more. too much travel = me not getting to actualy do things as much, cause my play time is NOT infinite.

But Witchblade! Don't you know that developers poured their creative life and spirit into creating all those extra areas full of super-creative and innovative dazing trash mobs with no loot! How DARE you seek to skip their VISION and their ART!

/sarcasm off

[chaoticcrono]

But Witchblade! Don't you know that developers poured their creative life and spirit into creating all those extra areas full of super-creative and innovative dazing trash mobs with no loot! How DARE you seek to skip their VISION and their ART!

/sarcasm off

lol whats sad is the devs seem to actually think that way

[Dhrizzle]

You still haven't answered my question... do you even remember what my question was?

Yes you said,

if you enjoy doing them on a ground mount why do you have to remove my ability to fly to do that? you havent actually answered the question.

and for the fifth and now final time I will answer.

If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.

Feel free to ignore this and not bother answering my questions, I'll pay your future posts the same courtesy.

[chaoticcrono]

Yes you said,



and for the fifth and now final time I will answer.



Feel free to ignore this and not bother answering my questions, I'll pay your future posts the same courtesy.

that's not an answer though because it doesn't explain why you cant make the choice without removing the choice from others.

saying the choice is illusory is your opinion and doesn't actually make the choice not a choice.

[OMGTwitchTV]

I think you're putting to much emphasis on the superficial aspects of the unlock,

And I feel as though you are just complaining to complain and arguing to argue. I guess opinions vary.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't.

That's some heavy hyperbole you got there.

[Bepples]

As someone who supports flying in WoW I'm fine with there being compromises in the form of unlocking after the first patch and having some max-level world content in which you can't fly (although I would prefer if you could eventually unlock flying in a place like the Maw). I understand world content can be better if experienced while grounded first. I'm not fine with it being used as a platform to phase out flying entirely as they tried to do in WoD but I don't think they're going in that direction.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Funny thing is ... you bring suramar as an example. We haven't had such an endgame activity since Legion. They can't ask something from you that doesn't exist.
Now, is it good for us to not have a Suramar-like thing? The outdoor content is getting smaller and smaller with each expac, the game is getting more and more instance based (islands, wafronts, horrific visions, torghast). I'm not saying the zones are getting smaller (though..). I'm saying the quality, worthful activities that bring you OUT to the zones.

We had Argus after Suramar. A big, demon covered no fly zone. BFA gave us Mechagon, but handed us a chance to use Jetpacks. Timeless Isle was all albatross and goblin gliders in a tricky kinda way. Personally, I love the feel of the outdoor content, the zones, and even the flight restrictions in the end game stuff until a certain point. However, once the content is completely outdated, I feel like flight could reinvigorate those places. As for Suramar, I loved the lore and questline, but it was a LOT of work just to unlock an allied race. I mean, $15 a month and $60 per DLC should give us .... well, something.

[SirCowdog]

And I feel as though you are just complaining to complain and arguing to argue. I guess opinions vary.
.

The point I was making was that it doesn't matter what the unlock is called if the substance of the unlock results in the same effect.

You already admitted that you were wrong about your assumptions of what the unlock entailed. All I'm reinforcing is that Blizzard has a history of not treating flight fairly, and to claim that THIS time it will be more reasonable has no actual basis for believability.

So to dismiss the concerns of players in this discussion based on "It's coming in 9.1 without Pathfinder"....is not really being objective or fair.

[RuneDK]

No, flying should be removed.

i mean you're certainly capable of just using ground mounts and not pushing what you enjoy on everyone else. if you at all use a flying mount then you are a hypocrite though so...

[Argorwal]

I’m not anti flying, but having flying enabled and saying it’s a “choice” is about the same as having the 30% buff/debuff in ICC/DS and played have the “choice” to use them.

Both “choices” make the game harder and more tedious with no benefit.

[chaoticcrono]

I’m not anti flying, but having flying enabled and saying it’s a “choice” is about the same as having the 30% buff/debuff in ICC/DS and played have the “choice” to use them.

Both “choices” make the game harder and more tedious with no benefit.

then dont force that shit on everyone else... if you think its of no benefit why the fuck would you ask for that

[Argorwal]

then dont force that shit on everyone else... if you think its of no benefit why the fuck would you ask for that

The point is both flying and no flying force the issue.

Handicapping yourself isn’t a “choice.”

Either way one side is upset.

[Rinaul]

Once again flying will only be unlocked for already outdated content while being unavailable in the Maw and Korthia. This is Argus all over again. Next expansion MUST have flying in from the START and it must be usable EVERYWHERE.

How is this a trick? As you mentioned... This has been done in the past numerous times so why would it not be the same? That is like suddenly expecting mythic raid to unlock before heroic. You should know the name of the game by now.

[huth]

Compromise - is when both sides equally sacrifice something. When some players can always play current content, as they want, while others can never do it - then it's not compromise.

Which is irrelevant to the case since those aren't the two sides in the first place.

Exactly!

Think about it @huth. Blizzard is still designing content that ignores that flight exists. Players must still consume virtually all the content in order to unlock it(slightly different modes in SL). Flight can only be used on content which is not relevant. Content which is released later is flight-locked.

What is Blizzard actually giving up here? Effectively, nothing of importance.
What are players who enjoy flight actually getting? Effectively, nothing of importance.

To even call this a compromise or middle ground tell me that you're not being objective.

No, it tells that you aren't being objective. Blizzard still has to account for flight in the content they design. 6.2 PTR showed that the areas originally weren't designed for flight - Hellfire Citadel didn't even have collision, you could just fly through the building.

Blizzard is giving up things, they're just things that aren't obvious to you. And i'd argue that the players who "enjoy" flight are also not losing anything of actual importance, just something they'd like to have but is entirely extraneous to gameplay.

It's also making the mistake of assuming that a compromise has to be equal. It doesn't. Often times, it can't. It just requires that both sides are giving something up to reach a point where each of them gets something out of the situation.

[Witchblade77]

But Witchblade! Don't you know that developers poured their creative life and spirit into creating all those extra areas full of super-creative and innovative dazing trash mobs with no loot! How DARE you seek to skip their VISION and their ART!

/sarcasm off

not to mention all those BRILLIANT elevators moving ever so slowly up and down a never ending cliff. all that creative spirit I'm not appreciating. woe. WOE!!

[WowIsDead64]

Overall SL starts to smell like WOD. In a bad sense. It has little content and Blizzard think, that they can deal with it via stretching it. And then trick players into resubbing via nerfs. This xpack will may be become playable only by it's end. Do you really believe, that they didn't know consequences of loot squish?

Several misconceptions here:
1) Slowing players down via no flying helps a lot to stretch content and prolong it's life. It's not. In reality flying should be unlocked at least gradually. So, now it should be unlocked at least in leveling, because after 4 months leveling is no longer relevant. Then pro-flyers will be able to at least level alts, while waiting for 9.1 to fully unlock flying in endgame. And of course there shouldn't be "no-flying forever" locations. This is just dead content for us.
2) Long term grind keeps players busy. Wrong. Being able to properly play on just one character - was the biggest problem in BFA. And it's not solved in SL at all. Blizzard think, that if it's tied to cosmetics only, then there is no problem. But problem is still here. Players have no other casual content to do and if they don't go to at least M+, then they simply have nothing to do in this game. Blizzard kill their own content. They have 4 covenants. They have 4 armor types. They have 16x content. But they kill it by restricting player to just one of them.
3) Unlocking and nerfing things make players return to game with pleasure. You know what. Years passing by and we aren't getting younger. One year - is too long to wait. So, longer it takes for things to unlock - lesser my desire to return is. Returning to game by the end of xpack to play just for several months - is just waste of time, because you just don't have enough time to fully enjoy content of this xpack. And it looks like, that Blizzard intentionally design content to die after end of xpack, so you can't play it after release of next xpack, while waiting for next patch x.2, that would be good idea. Therefore all previous xpack content is just wasted after release of new ones. Systems like borrowed power, CRZ, scaling and ilvl pruning simply kill old endgame content, making it leveling only. Yeah, Classic servers could help, but they're released way too slowly, cuz Blizzard try to squish as much as possible from them. Recent xpacks don't even require porting, so they can't be released right now. Blizzard just scared, that releasing X, Y and Z xpacks at the same time would mean, that, let's say, xpack X would take players from xpacks Y and Z. And in case of serial releases, players will play each of them one by one, i.e. play much longer and paying much more sub fees.

[Specialka]

i mean you're certainly capable of just using ground mounts and not pushing what you enjoy on everyone else. if you at all use a flying mount then you are a hypocrite though so...

Nope, flying makes the world dead, so it should be removed or severely harder to get.

[SirCowdog]

The point is both flying and no flying force the issue.

Handicapping yourself isn’t a “choice.”

Either way one side is upset.

Then rework flight, or ground mounts, or the content.....or ALL of it, so it doesn't split the playerbase.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, flying makes the world dead, so it should be removed or severely harder to get.

You know what actually makes a dead world? Content design so shallow and devoid of creativity that it has to force players to interact with it by taking away all ability for players to avoid it.

It's no different than annoying unskippable cutscenes, or that stupid crap in games where there are doors everywhere but you have to wait for an NPC to open it after meaningless dialogue.