How to easily improve LFG and make M+ less horrific to pug

[Kokolums]

Pugging is easy with social skills.

Anytime someone starts voicing critical opinions in chat, whisper to them something like "Please don't get upset. People will leave and ruin my key." 9 times out of 10 they will completely change their attitude and even try to be openly supportive of the group going forward. I say 9 times of out 10 but really I've never seen it NOT work, I just assume it might at some point.

You need to understand people. You need to understand what choice of words will set the tone in the correct way and when to use them and how. You need social skills.

[Samuraijake]

funny story if you dont try to MDI every one of your dungeon runs you can complete +15's comfortably and on time with even the most retarded of pugs....

3-5 mobs
check when you're at 20-40-60-80-100% do prides... do bosses.

P.S. Fuck dratnos.

[chiddie]

I don't think it would be that popular simply because such groups will have a huge fail ratio. So people will either abandon or get even more frustrated with the game, than they are now.
And here IMO it's good that blizzard doesn't allow for that.

Besides - from talking about removal of rio we went to talking about adding LFD. Which are separate things, non-exlusive things.

Don’t think so. Not doing a dungeon at all is worse anyway than not doing it in time or failing trying.

A hella LOT of people out there are not even trying M+ because they have to “work” to form a group.

Maybe they’ll give up anyways after a few tries because of difficulty, but at least they tried.

[procne]

Don’t think so. Not doing a dungeon is worse anyway than not doing it in time or failing trying.

A hella LOT of people out there are not even trying M+ because they have to “work” to form a group.

Maybe they’ll give up anyways after a few tries because of difficulty, but at least they tried.

If they don't at least try, then we're talking about people who are not able to do any higher key. And about the frustration - I don't know. I find it more frustrating to spend time flying to a dungeon, spending 15 minutes there trying only to have someone finally ragequit, effectively wasting all my time for nothing, than just not finding a group.

And I think that's good. If people don't want to put this effort then they should stay away from m+. Because they will not want to put effort into reading strategies and properly preparing either. If they like the gameplay of casually running dungeon from time to time then let them stay in heroics.

Let's not treat m+ as a core gameplay of the game. It's just a higher difficulty for people, who want to do something more demanding. And as such, it shouldn't be accessible by just anyone, with a one click in LFD.

[chiddie]

I disagree with +9 being toughest purely because of tanks. 12 or 13 is where tanks can’t really “tank” anymore and must start kiting, which means dps have to take on more responsibility. THAT’S where pug key go to die.

I didn’t mean that they are hard because of tanks. They are hard for the reasons I wrote, that have little to do with tanks.

Also, tanks have to kite in +9 also, especially in fortified weeks, unless they vastly outgear them.

[Specialka]

They can add as many reasons for tanks to exist as they want. Ppl will still not tank because of the added responsability and pressure. Nowadays it is so much easier to blame your tank if the key fails. Also most dps (especially those who have never tanked) say that tanking is boring, despite the fact that you do everything a dps does in an M+ and more. The truth is that maybe it is not as fun, but certainly not boring (and the worse your party is, the more you have to do as tank).
Anyway - point is: ppl who want to tank, tank, those who don't- still wont tank.

Well, if it is not fun, it is boring. It is kinda the definition of 'not being fun'. And again, DPS, once a certain key level, do more than a tank.

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I didn’t mean that they are hard because of tanks. They are hard for the reasons I wrote, that have little to do with tanks.

Also, tanks have to kite in +9 also, especially in fortified weeks, unless they vastly outgear them.

I did some +8 as a 180 war prot and did not kite at all.

[chiddie]

If they don't at least try, then we're talking about people who are not able to do any higher key. And about the frustration - I don't know. I find it more frustrating to spend time flying to a dungeon, spending 15 minutes there trying only to have someone finally ragequit, effectively wasting all my time for nothing, than just not finding a group.

And I think that's good. If people don't want to put this effort then they should stay away from m+. Because they will not want to put effort into reading strategies and properly preparing either. If they like the gameplay of casually running dungeon from time to time then let them stay in heroics.

Let's not treat m+ as a core gameplay of the game. It's just a higher difficulty for people, who want to do something more demanding. And as such, it shouldn't be accessible by just anyone, with a one click in LFD.

I strongly disagree with the reading part. This is a game, not a PHD course, 1-9 bracket is there to learn your way if you’re interested into pushing, you learn more playing and failing a key than reading guides or watching videos.

Also I’m not saying to get rid of the premade groups actual configuration, only to add M+ to LFD (at least M0, it already gives a good taste of what is going on in there).

[erifwodahs]

Duh, unless Blizzard would restrict its APIs then you could only see if someone did a 15 achievement and maybe number of total runs. Its not like Blizzard couldn't remove raider.Io if they wanted to.

If there are no more statistics how many +17 you finished then no addon or external site could list that.

Warcraft logs could do that.

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funny story if you dont try to MDI every one of your dungeon runs you can complete +15's comfortably and on time with even the most retarded of pugs....

3-5 mobs
check when you're at 20-40-60-80-100% do prides... do bosses.

P.S. Fuck dratnos.

Dratnos is making casual routes too... You don't even know what you are talking about, it's very clear.

[procne]

I strongly disagree with the reading part. This is a game, not a PHD course, 1-9 bracket is there to learn your way if you’re interested into pushing, you learn more playing and failing a key than reading guides or watching videos.

Which would be fine if you were doing it solo. But there are 4 other people, who have some expectations. Of your ability and knowledge. This is a timed run after all, with someone's key, most of the time. You have m0 for training, and that might be added to LFD. But then, what's the point of having normal-heroic-m0 difficulties? Mythic is designed as a place where automatic queues end. You just want to push boundary to +10, which doesn't change much.

Also I’m not saying to get rid of the premade groups actual configuration, only to add M+ to LFD (at least M0, it already gives a good taste of what is going on in there).

Yes, I'm aware

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Well, if it is not fun, it is boring. It is kinda the definition of 'not being fun'. And again, DPS, once a certain key level, do more than a tank.

No, boring simply means uninteresting, dull, tiresome, not inducing any emotions. I would never describe tanking as such ^^
Scary, annoying, stressful - those are not fun, but neither they are boring ^^

[hulkgor]

New feature:

You enter the LFG interface. You list the dungeons that you want to run along with their levels. For example, all SL dungeons at keystone levels 14, 15 and 16. Anyone making a group that fits those criteria can instantly see all people that potentially want to run that key and can invite them.

Easy peazy. You no longer need to manually apply and reapply for hours. Just list your preferences, hit up LFG and wait until you get invited.

You do realize, this doesn't really improve anything, right?

It will be easier for you to be listed, so it will be as easy for -everyone- else as well, so, it will be exactly the same thing as it is now.

[antelope591]

^ This
Tanks and healers either get no requirements, or have lower requirements than dps. It's much easier to find a group for me as a healer than dps.
But at the same time it's much easier for me to play as dps, than healer, especially in dungeons. If I make a small mistake as a healer people die, and I have more stuff to watch out for. There is no other healer which would take over and save the day in such case. While as dps worst case scenario is my dps will be tad lower, which isn't the end of the world.

I can't imagine how much harder it is for the tanks though, not sure if I will ever be brave enough to tank a high m+

Healer is actually by far the easiest with a competent group even during bursting and grievous weeks. I was healing +15's with a good group at 202 ilvl where dps knew how to interrupt, do proper damage and knew mechanics. Its yet another argument in favor of IO tbh (even though bad high IO players obviously exist also).

[Blackmist]

It'll be about ten seconds before people will use that to spam you.

Invited to group, and immediately offered the run for gold, or maybe a handy payment on obvious-boost-scam.ru.

[chiddie]

Which would be fine if you were doing it solo. But there are 4 other people, who have some expectations. Of your ability and knowledge. This is a timed run after all, with someone's key, most of the time. You have m0 for training, and that might be added to LFD. But then, what's the point of having normal-heroic-m0 difficulties? Mythic is designed as a place where automatic queues end. You just want to push boundary to +10, which doesn't change much.


Yes, I'm aware

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No, boring simply means uninteresting, dull, tiresome, not inducing any emotions. I would never describe tanking as such ^^
Scary, annoying, stressful - those are not fun, but neither they are boring ^^

Some mechanics do not appear until +2, so even M0 could not be enough. The right answer should be M0 having ALL mechanics of higher key but less punishing.

I realize that I’m not alone in the key but, again, I realize that it’s still a game and studying should be not mandatory.

If the refrain “make your own group” is still a thing, it should be a 360 degrees thing: if you fear to meet people under your high standards of preps, create a fixed group or enter a big guild.

Also I’m still convinced that no readings or videos will prepare you enough for the real thing, there are too many things to learn and many you can learn only by failing.

[procne]

Healer is actually by far the easiest with a competent group even during bursting and grievous weeks. I was healing +15's with a good group at 202 ilvl where dps knew how to interrupt, do proper damage and knew mechanics. Its yet another argument in favor of IO tbh (even though bad high IO players obviously exist also).

Yes, that might be so, I have been pugging mostly, and sometimes group damage was really high. But here's another problem with being healer - it's sometimes hard to compare and to tell whose fault it is. I am the only healer so I can't see how the other healer handles it. I am not always sure if the damage party takes is avoidable or not. Maybe the fights take too long due to low dps? There are so many factors, and they don't have that easy answers. And during m+ run there isn't really time to check logs. I guess it's easier when you have a lot of experience with different groups and people and full knowledge of every mob and what it does. I'm still missing a lot of it.

An anecdote though - I noticed it both as a healer and dps. When the healer dies group often starts taking less damage and they can survive for quite some time. They even comment that what are the healers good for. But I think it boil to the fact that once the healer is gone, and people know noone will restore their lost health, they get into this mode when they are extra careful not to take damage. Use consumables, cds, self-heals just to stay alive.

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Some mechanics do not appear until +2, so even M0 could not be enough. The right answer should be M0 having ALL mechanics of higher key but less punishing.

I realize that I’m not alone in the key but, again, I realize that it’s still a game and studying should be not mandatory.

If the refrain “make your own group” is still a thing, it should be a 360 degrees thing: if you fear to meet people under your high standards of preps, create a fixed group or enter a big guild.

Also I’m still convinced that no readings or videos will prepare you enough for the real thing, there are too many things to learn and many you can learn only by failing.

Definitely you will not be able to learn everything from guides. But you will learn some. Enough to be productive during a boss fight, to not be a threat to the whole group. But at the same time you shouldn't come to the group with no idea whatsoever, expecting to be taught everything.

As for the mechanics - I believe all mechanics (minus affixes) are already present in m0. They just often are not that dangerous yet, so often can be ignored

I really get what you are saying, and I would prefer to learn dungeons by trying, rather than watching videos. But that's something I could do only with like-minded people, who are ready for that and prefer wiping with me trying to figure things out, rather than getting all the answers from guides. If I, however, get into a group with randoms I simply do my best to not be a burden. If they don't write in their key they are fine with wiping to learn, and not timing their key, then I will give them that ^^

[Wries]

Healer is actually by far the easiest with a competent group even during bursting and grievous weeks. I was healing +15's with a good group at 202 ilvl where dps knew how to interrupt, do proper damage and knew mechanics. Its yet another argument in favor of IO tbh (even though bad high IO players obviously exist also).

Kinda true. I was pushing 22-25 keys last season and I count the hardest (but successful!) key I ran that season to be a PuG Motherlode +15 because the people in it did just about everything wrong in terms of pulls, cc/interupts etc. A friend of mine pushed even higher keys and commented healing a +26 as one of the easier runs he'd done because the players he grouped up with took absolutely no accidental damage at all and of course had their avoidance+vers gear in order.

[chiddie]

Yes, that might be so, I have been pugging mostly, and sometimes group damage was really high. But here's another problem with being healer - it's sometimes hard to compare and to tell whose fault it is. I am the only healer so I can't see how the other healer handles it. I am not always sure if the damage party takes is avoidable or not. Maybe the fights take too long due to low dps? There are so many factors, and they don't have that easy answers. And during m+ run there isn't really time to check logs. I guess it's easier when you have a lot of experience with different groups and people and full knowledge of every mob and what it does. I'm still missing a lot of it.

An anecdote though - I noticed it both as a healer and dps. When the healer dies group often starts taking less damage and they can survive for quite some time. They even comment that what are the healers good for. But I think it boil to the fact that once the healer is gone, and people know noone will restore their lost health, they get into this mode when they are extra careful not to take damage. Use consumables, cds, self-heals just to stay alive.

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Definitely you will not be able to learn everything from guides. But you will learn some. Enough to be productive during a boss fight, to not be a threat to the whole group. But at the same time you shouldn't come to the group with no idea whatsoever, expecting to be taught everything.

As for the mechanics - I believe all mechanics (minus affixes) are already present in m0. They just often are not that dangerous yet, so often can be ignored

I really get what you are saying, and I would prefer to learn dungeons by trying, rather than watching videos. But that's something I could do only with like-minded people, who are ready for that and prefer wiping with me trying to figure things out, rather than getting all the answers from guides. If I, however, get into a group with randoms I simply do my best to not be a burden. If they don't write in their key they are fine with wiping to learn, and not timing their key, then I will give them that ^^

Ahahah the healer anecdote is 100% true. When I die suddenly as per magic ppl start having an unexpected, till that point, survivability, that make me think they were simply not caring before since there was a spamming bot with them.

Also I am ok with not throwing yourself into an M3 knowing only the dungeon’s name, but let’s be honest, there are 8 dungeons, tons of different mobs that do different things and at least 32 bosses. Plus affixes. You can’t pretend that a new player knows everything before entering the ring. And even if he knows on paper, practice is a different story. I’m not the smartest player by any meaning and despite having done all dungeons at least 7-8 times in M+ and knowing what to avoid, I still fail to some mechanics, it’s just human. There’s a reason if the average joe is... well, an average joe.

The only way I have to improve is trial and error, there’s no training mode unfortunately (M0 is not threatening enough and you can survive most mechanics even if hit, unless you are really undergeared).

[GnomeEU]

This is ignorant. Tanks still have to kite plenty in keys higher than 15. You'd know that if you actually did anything higher than a 12-13.

Maybe your tanks are bad?
I see plenty of tanks that barely get any dmg in 15ies.
As a healer I see plenty of bosses where I can just dps the whole time.

And my tank is 210 ilvl now too, I tank 12 to 14 just fine I almost never kite, unless its some enraged atonement dogs or something.

I remember dungeons where tanks really had to kite. Like mobs dealing 70% of tank HP, PER Hit. But that was in older challenge modes. And unnerfed TBC dungeons.

Current 14 keys have almost no one shot mechanics.

[chiddie]

Well, if it is not fun, it is boring. It is kinda the definition of 'not being fun'. And again, DPS, once a certain key level, do more than a tank.

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I did some +8 as a 180 war prot and did not kite at all.

Yeh, I also know that shift+rightclick onto a Windows icon open a menu with more options than the simple right clicking, you would be surprised to know how many people don’t know this.

I didn’t meet a single tank that was not kiting like there’s no tomorrow until now apart from my guild prot pally (that indeed is almost 1200 rio and overgears the 9).

[Azerate]

I mean OP's idea isn't that bad, but at the very least it should be per dungeon, without a global option. Picking somebody for your group who just declared they want to join "any" dungeon rather than specifically the one you want members for seems like picking someone who isn't dedicated enough. Plus it would reduce the bloat.

Or honestly just get rid of the stupid 5 queues at a time limit. Whatever the reasoning beind it, it's just a pain in the ass, considering a lot of party leaders don't immediately decline you but just let you sit and wait throughout the whole timer.

[Logwyn]

Maybe your tanks are bad?
I see plenty of tanks that barely get any dmg in 15ies.
As a healer I see plenty of bosses where I can just dps the whole time.

And my tank is 210 ilvl now too, I tank 12 to 14 just fine I almost never kite, unless its some enraged atonement dogs or something.

I remember dungeons where tanks really had to kite. Like mobs dealing 70% of tank HP, PER Hit. But that was in older challenge modes. And unnerfed TBC dungeons.

Current 14 keys have almost no one shot mechanics.

If your tank is having to kite maybe you should be CCing with traps, sap, polymorph, hex etc. Like we did in Vanilla and BC. Not sure why this isn't an option now.

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lol... had a tank that had done +19 dos instantly die in +10 dos earlier today... pack before entering hakkar wing just destroyed him... went from 100% to 0% in 1.9 seconds...

I remember when you have to CC in 5mans or tanks would get crushed no matter what class or spec.