Russia threatening to invade Ukraine 2.0

[Kellhound]

If Crimea is part of Ukraine then obviously blocking channel is depriving Ukrainians (temporarily occupied) of water, not Russians.

If it is part of Russia then and the point is to make Russia pay... well, you do know that Russia already offered to pay for it? Could gouge a lot more out of it that way without making actual people suffer.

Obviously, suffering is the point though.

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Err, what? Russia trying to create water crisis to blame Ukraine for it???

Where did you get this galactic brain take?

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Maybe Ukraine should try to work out political settlement with Donbass, how about that?

Do you think that would be bad idea for them?

Yes it would be a bad idea to come to an agreement that rewards Russia's direct involvement in Ukrainian affairs.

[Shalcker]

Their refusal to provide water for their people while crying about an artificial waterway that was taken away. You guys annexed it, you gotta take care of it now.

There is no "refusal". Water is being rationed due to drought reducing usual water sources, and various measures to fix that are already in the works.

You cannot just spring up desalination plant overnight.

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whats that got to do with russias imperialist occupation of Ukraine?

Given that Russia is obviously unwilling to integrate Donbass outright, political settlement there would move Ukrainian conflict back from military to political sphere.

Which i would think even in imperialist fight to be an improvement - at least for Ukraine. Do you disagree?

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Yes it would be a bad idea to come to an agreement that rewards Russia's direct involvement in Ukrainian affairs.

Getting Donbass back to Ukraine in a non-violent way is reward to Russia? Are you serious?

[Shalcker]

It’s been years, nice try though. And desal was but one approach. In the short term they should have sunk some wells into the aquifers.

First, they are doing that.

Previously they had enough water from reservoirs; current drought is supposedly worsts in 150 years.

[Easo]

Also just gonna add that pictures of the new pumps over there showed something interesting - not made in Russia (so much for the louded self sustainability) but Denmark instead and should not have been imported in the first place due to sanctions, but clever people found a way around that. Now that it is out in the light there are questions who will be the technical support if they break down? Probably Pushkin.

It's stupid to demand Ukraine not engage in what is a blatant war crime.................

Oh, so it is a war between Ukraine and Russia then, after all? Kinda have to have war to have a war crime. I will ask you once more - why does Ukraine HAVE to do anything? Nobody is denying them water, you are confusing different things, access to water is not denied by Ukraine (since Russia supplies it).
P.S.
You also basically are trying to reward the agressor, but what do I know...

[Easo]

It’s a 60-year old artificial waterway. They didn’t block a natural source like a river.

Exactly. No one is blocking rivers or not letting Russia build pipelines to Crimea. So where is the issue? Nazi Ukraine baaaaad or anything more substantial?

[Shalcker]

Oh phew. A single well after 6 years of occupation. Now, remind me why 7 years is overnight again.

"A single well"?

They provide about half of total demand through them atm.

Apparently the question was too tough. For everyone else, if Russia had started building desal plants 6 years ago, when they knew they’d need water sources for the arid region, and only built 1 at a time they’d have 3 right now.

Clearly it looked as not quite as threatening until worst drought in 150 years that forced to speed up plans.

[Felya]

Maybe they should do 1000 different things including not being a Mafia state.

Let be clear here... The mafia state is Ukraine? Not the country that stole their land and is now demanding their water?

The mob runs Russia... don’t even try this shit.

[Santti]

Let be clear here... The mafia state is Ukraine? Not the country that stole their land and is now demanding their water?

The mob runs Russia... don’t even try this shit.

That sounds so completely ridiculous and made up...

But I believe it. That's Russia for you.

I'm sure it's much better these days.

[Shadowferal]

Wait, when did the Bratva become based in the Ukraine? Did I miss something in the past year?

[CostinR]

Oh, so it is a war between Ukraine and Russia then, after all? Kinda have to have war to have a war crime. I will ask you once more - why does Ukraine HAVE to do anything? Nobody is denying them water, you are confusing different things, access to water is not denied by Ukraine (since Russia supplies it).
P.S.
You also basically are trying to reward the agressor, but what do I know...

You know there are rules of war and have been for the entire modern age. As for why Ukraine should not cut off water supplies to Crimea that everyone knew they depend on, hell one of the big reasons Crimea was even added to the Ukrainian SSR was because of water, well I dunno maybe because we accept as human beings that denying a population usable water is a crime against humanity. Whoever doesn't accept that has no respect for what the West should and does stand for.

Sugar coat Ukraine's actions however way you want: They decided to deliberately shut down the canal to Crimea knowing very well they would create a major humanitarian crisis on the Peninsula. How a country handles itself in an armed conflict does matter, an enormous amount in point of fact: The West spends vast resources in fighting wars to minimize civilian suffering and we do hold ourselves to account when we fail in that area.

Ukraine has decided it has no regard for human life, even for the lives of those they would claim as their own citizens.

Let be clear here... The mafia state is Ukraine? Not the country that stole their land and is now demanding their water?

The mob runs Russia... don’t even try this shit.

The mob runs Ukraine too, in case you don't know anything about the country you're defending.

[jonnysensible]

You know there are rules of war and have been for the entire modern age. As for why Ukraine should not cut off water supplies to Crimea that everyone they depend on, hell one of the big reasons Crimea was even added to the Ukrainian SSR was because of water, well I dunno maybe because we accept as human beings that denying a population usable water is a crime against humanity. Whoever doesn't has no respect for what the West should and does stand for.

Sugar coat Ukraine's actions however way you want: They decided to deliberately shut down the canal to Crimea knowing very well they would create a major humanitarian crisis on the Peninsula. How a country handles itself in an armed conflict does matter, an enormous amount in point of fact: The West spends vast resources in fighting wars to minimize civilian suffering and we do hold ourselves to account when we fail in that area.

Ukraine has decided it has no regard for human life, even for the lives of those they would claim as their own citizens.

the water from the canal was not drinking water.

russia created the humanitarian crisis, this stuff isnt difficult.

[Felya]

Maybe they should do 1000 different things including not being a Mafia state.

The mob runs Ukraine too, in case you don't know anything about the country you're defending.

Oh, so... we go from Ukraine being mobsters, to Ukraine does it too... but, I’m the one that doesn’t know the country they are defending. Yeah... that’s totally what’s going on here...

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That sounds so completely ridiculous and made up...

But I believe it. That's Russia for you.

I'm sure it's much better these days.

Notice that just about everything said about Russia, gets some sort of denial... this... didn’t...

[CostinR]

Oh, so... we go from Ukraine being mobsters, to Ukraine does it too... but, I’m the one that doesn’t know the country they are defending. Yeah... that’s totally what’s going on here...

That original point you took issue with was in reference to Russia being a Mafia state just to clear that up.

But hey black and white world. If you attack Ukraine you have to defend Russia and vice versa.

How about this point that I've made several times before this current conversation, including on this very thread, that both Ukraine and Russia are shit countries, if county even properly describes the criminal enterprises that they are.

[Shalcker]

russia created the humanitarian crisis, this stuff isnt difficult.

Ukraine perpetuates it, that isn't difficult either.

Btw, clearly I missed your answer - do you believe political settlement on Donbass would be good for Ukraine? One that would take "separatist" worries on re-integration into account, give them representation, and all the rest as stated in Minsk agreements?

Or is it only worth anything if they'll win by shedding their blood and enforce their will through force of arms while completely ignoring those "Russian agents", and until that happens it might as well stay lost?

[jonnysensible]

Ukraine perpetuates it, that isn't difficult either.

russia perpetuates it by not leaving the land they invaded.

[Santti]

russia perpetuates it by not leaving the land they invaded.

Yes, but the poor Germans in the Sudetenland, though. What can you do, hands tied.

[Easo]

Yes, but the poor Germans in the Sudetenland, though. What can you do, hands tied.

You know, at some point we oughta be better than this, especially 70 years later... It is not even like those decisions were made by some referendum, voting, whatever. Just by few people in charge getting stiffies from all the power they had.

[Kellhound]

There is no "refusal". Water is being rationed due to drought reducing usual water sources, and various measures to fix that are already in the works.

You cannot just spring up desalination plant overnight.

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Given that Russia is obviously unwilling to integrate Donbass outright, political settlement there would move Ukrainian conflict back from military to political sphere.

Which i would think even in imperialist fight to be an improvement - at least for Ukraine. Do you disagree?

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Getting Donbass back to Ukraine in a non-violent way is reward to Russia? Are you serious?

The return to anything less than pre-intervention status would reward Russia. Hell, anything that does not get retribution from Russia rewards Russia in the long term.

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You know, at some point we oughta be better than this, especially 70 years later... It is not even like those decisions were made by some referendum, voting, whatever. Just by few people in charge getting stiffies from all the power they had.

Russia did it in 1914 as well, though that time it was in "defense" of Slavs. Didn't end well for them though....

[Shalcker]

russia perpetuates it by not leaving the land they invaded.

Do you see Russia as the only actor there that can do something, and Ukraine is denied any agency?

What solution would you accept exactly?

For empires to peacefully pack up and leave their holdings?

It's not actually impossible; you just need to pay enough for them to be worth it. Something like proper NATO membership would do it. Or pan-European Defense Treaty including Russia. That would make them a lot less scared of releasing their grip.

That would go against Western imperialism however.

Which is why political settlement is the only choice Ukraine actually has at the moment.

Everything else will just prolong their suffering.

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The return to anything less than pre-intervention status would reward Russia. Hell, anything that does not get retribution from Russia rewards Russia in the long term.

You would rather Ukraine got nothing back? Wouldn't that reward Russia just the same?

Everything points out to fatigue with Ukrainian situation building up. Ukraine cannot keep pushing their "Russian card" forever to get sympathy and support - at least as far as EU is concerned. Soon Nord Stream 2 will be finished and Ukraine will become irrelevant.

And if they'll not agree to some kind of actual resolution... they'll likely will not get anything back at all.


...i mean, they just shown Victory Day Parade in Donbass in official parade lineup among other Russian cities.

[Theodarzna]

Soon Nord Stream 2 will be finished and Ukraine will become irrelevant.

I hope when its done it will diffuse a lot of future tensions because Russia and the NATO states will have a trade relationship that is pretty vital and Russia will probably be a lot less paranoid knowing they control the gas and oil supply and that NATO probably isn't going to invade and continue aggressive belligerence against the guy that keeps the lights on just because a country in another hemisphere has some wild grudge.