If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[OwenBurton]

“My soul is sick of the back-and-forth in Ashenvale that has gone on nearly since we set foot in this world. And I am even more sickened by our own blindness to what we should and must do. The night elves claim compassion and wisdom, yet they murder us when we harvest a few trees that would provide life-giving shelter! The night elves have lived here long enough. Let them now linger only as a bad memory. It is the Horde’s hour to reign on this continent, and reign we shall!” - Garrosh Hellscream

Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?

[eillas]

Garrosh would have invaded no matter what. He wanted all of Kalimdor.

[Varodoc]

Garrosh would have invaded no matter what. He wanted all of Kalimdor.

This is the correct answer, if anything he didn't even want to stop to Kalimdor, he wanted to conquer the entire planet:

Today, WE will remake the world. Our world. FOR THE HORDE!

As he said in the Twilight Highlands intro.

Sounds pretty crazy to me, this guy was always a psychopath, I don't know what Thrall saw in him to make him Warchief but he clearly failed (as he admits in BfA to Jaina).

[Daronokk]

Garrosh would have invaded no matter what. He wanted all of Kalimdor.

You just say that because you don't like him. There is zero proof of your statement. It's just your headcanon.

The fact we do know is that Garrosh acted after being refused Ashenvale's resources by the Night Elves, an act that further starved Orgrimmar. It was a decision of taking the resources by force or starving to death, so war made sense.

Had the Night Elves shared their resources Orgrimmar wouldn't be starving in the first place, Garrosh might not even have been appointed Warchief. Thrall chose him in the first place because of this situation and that war was inevitable as a result of it.

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As he said in the Twilight Highlands intro.

Sounds pretty crazy to me, this guy was always a psychopath, I don't know what Thrall saw in him to make him Warchief but he clearly failed (as he admits in BfA to Jaina).

You're taking that quote way too literally. It's just a statement of taking action, taking matters in their own hands and providing a better future for the Horde. Don't forget that they lost their homeworld and were intruders and chained, they just want to survive and thrive, something that is constantly threatened by the Alliance and other forces.

Don't forget war was declared by Varian after the Battle of Undercity and the Wrathgate. The Alliance started this whole mess. The Night Elves started with starving Orgrimmar. The Horde fought back hard. Why blame them?

[Dancaris]

No, thats would not remove the conflict. And btw its their sacred forest, after all.
Only way to sate Horde need of wood is to grow new wood at Azshara or Barrens. I dont see the problem in that, and its will require less efforts than guarding all forest, or even dying in wars.
Or, take that trees at Feralas? NE dont give a shit about that forest, and if we look at that trees, they are damn huge.

But hey, that is world of WARcraft, devs need conflict - they created conflinct. Logic and sence are not used there. If they dont need that conflict, Horde would be just fine without wood. Building with stone, metal or even tusks of some animals.

[Rustedsaint]

No this is Warcraft, they would write in anew reason for the fighting.

[Yuli]

No, thats would not remove the conflict. And btw its their sacred forest, after all.
Only way to sate Horde need of wood is to grow new wood at Azshara or Barrens. I dont see the problem in that, and its will require less efforts than guarding all forest, or even dying in wars.
Or, take that trees at Feralas? NE dont give a shit about that forest, and if we look at that trees, they are damn huge.

But hey, that is world of WARcraft, devs need conflict - they created conflinct. Logic and sence are not used there. If they dont need that conflict, Horde would be just fine without wood. Building with stone, metal or even tusks of some animals.

Your post was fine, then you did a pseudo-meta analysis. The Horde also didn't have that much of other resources.

[Razion]

Guarantee? No. Any blood spilled in any conflict could have arisen any new mongering warlord hellbent on killing everyone else. Even if Garrosh had been properly mentored, even if the Orcs were respectful of nature, took on druidism, and planted trees to replace what they took, still conflict between the warring people in skirmishes around the world elsewhere would have invariably somehow somewhere resulted in some orc stepping up over Thrall during Cataclysm to take advantage of those lingering orcish prejudices against the other races that led to all out war.

Whether it bad been the Blackrocks starting a new Horde of their own, whether it had been any other farmer's son or up and coming commander just trying to bring honor to the Horde, the orc culture still rewarded strength and power. And meanwhile, even if orcs had all the upbringing to not foster aggression, persecution from humans and the rest of the Alliance would have reinforced past stereotypes. It's a lingering problem on both sides. Even individual elves hell-bent on orc genocide exist, and could have sparked the flames of war as well if not other humans pushing for camps all over again.

That said, conflict over Warsong Gulch at least would have been resolved, and at the very least all those deaths and lingering impacts of those deaths wouldn't have happened. Maybe if orcs had the shelters, they wouldn't have felt as threatened by humans taking land elsewhere, and if it wasn't Garrosh but someone else, maybe not trying to live up to that father figure, maybe the Horde doesn't wage war against itself or the Alliance... thus making them weaker when the bigger threats show up, dooming Azeroth.

[sighy]

Well, if Vanilla WoW didn't undo the character concepts and developments from WC3 between Orcs and Night Elves basically all of the conflicts could have been avoided, in theat area. And thematically the #noblesavage version of them would have fit the Horde better anyway and could have provided basically all lumber needed without the need to fell any trees... But i digress.


Giving the Horde half of Ashenvale doesn't really fix the fundamental problems stemming from Thrall's horible decisionmaking. So some sort of border skirmishes would have happened no matter what.

[VladlTutushkin]

You just say that because you don't like him. There is zero proof of your statement. It's just your headcanon.

The fact we do know is that Garrosh acted after being refused Ashenvale's resources by the Night Elves, an act that further starved Orgrimmar. It was a decision of taking the resources by force or starving to death, so war made sense.

Had the Night Elves shared their resources Orgrimmar wouldn't be starving in the first place, Garrosh might not even have been appointed Warchief. Thrall chose him in the first place because of this situation and that war was inevitable as a result of it.

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You're taking that quote way too literally. It's just a statement of taking action, taking matters in their own hands and providing a better future for the Horde. Don't forget that they lost their homeworld and were intruders and chained, they just want to survive and thrive, something that is constantly threatened by the Alliance and other forces.

Don't forget war was declared by Varian after the Battle of Undercity and the Wrathgate. The Alliance started this whole mess. The Night Elves started with starving Orgrimmar. The Horde fought back hard. Why blame them?

In “War Crimes” when Anduin asked Garrosh a “what if” question on would have there being peace if Alliance just gave horde resources Garrosh just grunted that it was not about resources.

Also Alliance is not supposed to give horde resources and land, especially when it land both culturally and geographically important to one of its races.

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Dont think so. Its classical “give them a finger and they bite off your whole hand” situation.

Plus horde had clearly shown that they cannot use land responsibly when they demolished Azshara in less then three years to the point where water there became too toxic to drink and resources were wasted. Not “used” but mostly just wasted or misused. Like in Ashenvale actually where orcs leave lumber to rot or burn it when they couldnt deliver it to Orgrimmar but continued chopping anyway.

[Super Dickmann]

Possibly. The Horde was bound to go to war because of Varian's declaration and more importantly the night elf embargo. Both were caused by Thrall's decision to deliberately put a people who were hunter/gatherers and then raiders in an inhospitable wasteland to repent racially. Still, he did allow the Warsong to raid Ashenvale for resources and the Horde was in Ashenvale even in Vanilla. Splitting it in two would bandage the wound for a time, but nothing short of creating a sustainable way to feed themselves would have done so and that'd require moving out of Durotar.

It depends on the timing as well. If done in Vanilla and was followed up with Thrall having a come to jesus moment and refocusing there, sure. By Wrath it was too late - the orcs were already on the down for years and not only was that land concession not going to happen it was separate from the war with the humans in EK.

[VladlTutushkin]

Possibly. The Horde was bound to go to war because of Varian's declaration and more importantly the night elf embargo. Both were caused by Thrall's decision to deliberately put a people who were hunter/gatherers and then raiders in an inhospitable wasteland to repent racially. Still, he did allow the Warsong to raid Ashenvale for resources and the Horde was in Ashenvale even in Vanilla. Splitting it in two would bandage the wound for a time, but nothing short of creating a sustainable way to feed themselves would have done so and that'd require moving out of Durotar.

It depends on the timing as well. If done in Vanilla and was followed up with Thrall having a come to jesus moment and refocusing there, sure. By Wrath it was too late - the orcs were already on the down for years and not only was that land concession not going to happen it was separate from the war with the humans in EK.

Its fun y how horde demands but refuses to give anything in return.

“Half of Ashenvale”... Well then, half f Lordaeron wouldnt be bad either. Maybe slap a huge ass light Cathedral there and blast holy hymns every day so loudly that Undercity would shake.

Or at the very least make sure sylvanas and her rabid clique of simps quit experimenting on humans, which btw was the last drop for Varian.

[Aydinx2]

Nope. The current Orcs (and Horde by extension) have no interest in flourishing/thriving. Their only interest is to conquer.
If they wanted to thrive they would've used their shamans/druids to terraform the land around Durotar. There is a good reason any bountiful land they occupy turns into a sawmill.

[VladlTutushkin]

Nope. The current Orcs (and Horde by extension) have no interest in flourishing/thriving. Their only interest is to conquer.
If they wanted to thrive they would've used their shamans/druids to terraform the land around Durotar. There is a good reason any bountiful land they occupy turns into a sawmill.

It takes approximately three years or so for them to turn an untouched, pristine zone into a wasteland apparently.

[Super Dickmann]

Its fun y how horde demands but refuses to give anything in return.

“Half of Ashenvale”... Well then, half f Lordaeron wouldnt be bad either. Maybe slap a huge ass light Cathedral there and blast holy hymns every day so loudly that Undercity would shake.

Or at the very least make sure sylvanas and her rabid clique of simps quit experimenting on humans, which btw was the last drop for Varian.

Varian couldn't give two shits either way. He'd already attacked the Forsaken before Wrathgate and would continue to do so later. His grievance was chiefly with orcs, hence why he goes on to Thrall about green-skinned abominations and how much he's wanted to see him (Thrall) dead personally. That said, I don't think Garrosh would've turned down trading land he doesn't care about in Lordaeron for land he does care about and that is vital for the survival of his people in Kalimdor. It's just that such a trade would never even start to take place since while Garrosh or any Warchief could assert his power over the Forsaken at the time given they had the city under guard and there were no Val'kyr to up their numbers yet, Varian would not be able to offer that concession and would never have wanted to. He wanted his war (with orcs).

[VladlTutushkin]

Varian couldn't give two shits either way. He'd already attacked the Forsaken before Wrathgate and would continue to do so later. His grievance was chiefly with orcs, hence why he goes on to Thrall about green-skinned abominations and how much he's wanted to see him (Thrall) dead personally. That said, I don't think Garrosh would've turned down trading land he doesn't care about in Lordaeron for land he does care about and that is vital for the survival of his people in Kalimdor. It's just that such a trade would never even start to take place since while Garrosh or any Warchief could assert his power over the Forsaken at the time given they had the city under guard and there were no Val'kyr to up their numbers yet, Varian would not be able to offer that concession and would never have wanted to. He wanted his war (with orcs).

Not necessarily. For all his bluster he was not about to just straight up go to war (and i dont mean small scale, i mean big war) until he went to Undercity and had a Scourge PTSD after “touring the facilities”. I firmly believe that if Thrall or Garrosh kept sylvanas on a leash many conflicts could have being avoided.

[Accendor]

Your post was fine, then you did a pseudo-meta analysis. The Horde also didn't have that much of other resources.

Apparently they had enough resources for war and that is usually pretty resource intensive

Also no, as BfA made clear: the vast majority of the Horde is fundamentally evil and they simply enjoy killing. Giving them more territory would have maybe extended the truce a little bit, but not for long.

[Super Dickmann]

Not necessarily. For all his bluster he was not about to just straight up go to war (and i dont mean small scale, i mean big war) until he went to Undercity and had a Scourge PTSD after “touring the facilities”. I firmly believe that if Thrall or Garrosh kept sylvanas on a leash many conflicts could have being avoided.

We don't need to assume. We know that Varian was already taking military action against the Forsaken before that in Howling Fjord and Stormwind's policy was to burn their hearts in braziers to purify their souls. We also know that when Varian hears that Thrall is in the city he immediately runs out of the Apothecarium to go after him. Hell, even when he sees the Apothecarium he makes it about orcs:

King Varian Wrynn says: I have seen the Horde's world. I have been inside their cities. Inside their minds...
King Varian Wrynn says: I know what evil lies in the hearts of orcs.

And as for his declaration of war, here's the sole mention of Sylvanas:

King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.

Everything else is about Thrall including his specifically anti-orc goal to kill green skinned aberrations in general and Thrall in particular. Muh Forsaken, Muh Sylvanas has next to nothing to do with this as it came from a time when the game still remembered that conflict could have multiple actors and causes and may well be inevitable given incompatible interests.

It's even more irrelevant in the sense that Garrosh would be perfectly fine ditching the Forsaken if it meant gaining usable land and the wellbeing of his people, but it would never come to that point because Varian's reclamation of Lordaeron was far off from his overall goals and both are proud people who wouldn't come to the negotiating table after being slighted.

[VladlTutushkin]

Apparently they had enough resources for war and that is usually pretty resource intensive

Also no, as BfA made clear: the vast majority of the Horde is fundamentally evil and they simply enjoy killing. Giving them more territory would have maybe extended the truce a little bit, but not for long.

Basically like when Rome tried to bribe germs, huns and other barbarians - it worked for a few months until they found another reason to attack... or just attacked and found reasons later. Or havent even bothered with reason.

[Okacz]

Horde doesn't take charity. If true horde wants a forest, it's taking a god damn forest. And despite me being a Hordie, I respect Night Elves enough not to believe they would be such weaklings as to give half their sacred land to the Horde just because they were scared of conflict.

That's also the difference between Garrosh and Sylvanas. Both went into Ashenvale, but Garrosh actually wanted dem trees. Sylvanas saw the biggest freaking tree around and burned it. That's not good leadership.