Casual Vs Hardcore

[arkanon]

No, not an actual Vs thread, but something different.

Obviously this forum has turned into a warzone between players who identify as casual, vs players who identify as hardcore. But the same issue arises in every single thread, without fail - what is casual? What is hardcore?

So rather than the usual back and forth bickering and fighting, can we have a go at an open discussion regarding what you personally consider casual, hardcore, or both.

I will start by offering my opinion on the subject:

I believe it boils down to attitude, rather than actual in game activities. I believe you can be hardcore in any aspect of the game - there are hardcore mount collectors, hardcore AH players, hardcore pet battlers, hardcore pvpers, and hardcore pvers. In all situations, they approach their favored aspect of the game with a hardcore mindset - that could be trying to collect the most mounts, or trying to collect the rarest mounts, but either way, they are committed to their goal, and it is their main focus when playing.

A hardcore pet battler takes that aspect of the game very seriously - their playtime is focused around obtaining the best pets, building the best team, and learning the ins and outs of the systems, and are willing to sacrifice their enjoyment at times to achieve their goals.

A hardcore raider takes their raid time seriously - they plan, they prep, they practice, and they focus on performing the best they can - regardless of the difficulty they play. This could mean some of the things they do they dont really enjoy, but it is a means to an end - and that end, that goal, is their main focus.


A casual to me, is someone who does not take any aspect of the game seriously - their attitude is more about having fun, and enjoying their playtime. They are not really concerned about performance, dont really invest much thought into prep and practice, bis lists and whats considered 'meta'.

So a casual pet battler uses the pets they think are cool, uses the ones with abilities they like, and dont really mind too much about the outcome, so long as they enjoy themselves. A casual pvper might do arena, might do random bgs, or might even play with a dedicated RBG team - but they are not there to climb the ranks, they are there for fun.

A casual raider might do LFR, or they might do higher difficulties. They play a spec they enjoy, with talents they enjoy, with a covenant they enjoy, and have little to no care for what is considered "meta". They play for fun, and are not worried if they are top of the meter, or 9th.

I think too often we focus on playtime, or difficulties, rather than attitude. And thats my conclusion: It doesnt matter how much you play, what difficulty you play, what content you focus on, or any other factor - but rather you attitude towards the game, and what sacrifices you are willing to make, if any, to achieve your goals in game.

I would love to hear if you agree, disagree, and more importantly, what YOU use to distinguish between a casual and hardcore player.

[Pohut]

Anyone who has less gear than me is a casual, anyone who has more gear than me is hardcore.

[arkanon]

Anyone who has less gear than me is a casual, anyone who has more gear than me is hardcore.

Sadly, this does seem pretty accurate for many around here: Anyone with better gear than me is a 'try hard' and anyone with less gear is a 'bad'.

[Fitsu]

I mostly agree, although one comment I see mentioned all the time that I strongly disagree with is "casual gamers are more about having fun". As if the people who play the game hardcore aren't doing it to have fun, I play most my games with a hardcore mindset exactly because that playstyle is fun to me. To play a game casually, with little to no challenge or mental requirment to me personally is the opposite of fun. It's boring.

Not to put anything against Casual players, you enjoy playing the game that way then you do you I just dislike how often "hardcore gaming" and "fun" are considered mutually exclusive as if people who play a game with a hardcore mentality aren't actually enjoying themselves.

Other than that, I generally agree. Although I think there is a 3rd category which gets mixed up with casuals and these are the people that want to do the hardest content but don't want to put in the hardcore effort. So they moan the games to hard, or moan that they got benched because they don't actually care about being good at the game and min-maxing they just want to clear the content with the least effort possible and then act like there the best in the game.

[Aucald]

Generally I divide the "casual" and "hardcore" crowds by their sense of competitiveness (or lack thereof). Hardcores tend to be competitive, whether it's internal (e.g. I want to be the best DPS in my guild and/or raid team), or external like gunning for server or world firsts. A casual player doesn't really care for the competitive scene anymore, opting instead to either only go for low-hanging/low-challenge gear or only playing with friends at their own speed. I consider myself a casual anymore, as I generally just play with a handful of friends doing whatever we care to do at our own pace. My group just got the achievement for doing all the M+5 dungeons last week or so. We have a blast playing, but we're definitely not at the cutting edge of content in any space WoW offers up. I was a highly competitive raider back in the WotLK and Cata days, striving towards CE and AotC in all tiers and even competing for server firsts, but I guess I just aged out of that realm due to the combination of real-world and career responsibilities.

[Crimson Spears]

I tend to go with time investment myself though I admit it can be lax at times. Generally if you spend more then twelve hours in the game working towards a singular goal I would consider you hardcore. Difficulty doesn't really play into from my perspective since that tends to sort itself out via experience and drive. Without even focusing on the content I could tackle most of the game so I find it isn't accurate enough when defined by investment.

I see trivial content that effects the hardest to be the most pro hardcore content in the game as it exists to do nothing but reward those who invest significant time into the game and nothing else.

[Toybox]

For me I'd rather mix my own interpretation of the terms with the interpretation most commonly held. For example, the guy doing 7 hours of mythic raiding each week is pretty casual to me, though many would consider that hardcore. On the flipside, the guy farming transmog for 20 hours a week is the definition of casual for most, yet that sort of commitment is very hardcore in my view.

So I'd say it's something like the following:

Casual-Casual: Does simpler content at a laid back pace/perhaps doesn't play too much.
Hardcore-Casual: Does simpler content, but puts a lot more time into it.
Casual-Hardcore: Does higher end content, but doesn't put many hours in (this is where I mostly land nowadays).
Hardcore-Hardcore: Does higher end content & plays a ridiculous amount.

There's definitely a better way to word it than that, but yeah... If you ask me who's more casual, a guy farming transmog 20 hours a week or the guy doing 2 nights of raiding a week, I'm 100% going to go with the latter while understanding most people would probably say the former.

[Scarnage86]

after one of my thread post generated 110+ pages i think i will just say
Good Casual Player vs Bad hardcore Player
this is ultimate thread

back in topic....
for me the steps from casual to hardcore (speaking off mindset, not skill) is when u start learning how things work, how to play the best, what u should do, where to go........
i mean when u study before trying.
when u know all before even do it.
when notthing is a fascinathing surprise but a knowed fact
when u never improvise, because u know and make a calculated perfect execution

this for me is the difference, knowing more.....(if we do not take skill in equation)

[arkanon]

this for me is the difference, knowing more.....(if we do not take skill in equation)

So a player with all the knowledge of the game available, but plays 1 hour a week chatting to friends and doing a world boss, is not max level, not even playing the current expansion - this person is "hardcore" by your standards?

As I said, there are no wrong answers, its just your opinion, but this one i find extremely strange.

[Frozenbro]

I believe it boils down to attitude, rather than actual in game activities.

Same, add time spent on top of attitude and thats pretty much my stance on the subject, cause there is 2 type of people among the different existing types:

1- The player that plays 6 hrs weekly give or take and gets even Hall of Fame.
2- The player that plays over 12 hrs daily but without doing any high end content.

Is it fair to label the first one as hardcore when the second one basically lives inside wow? not in my books.

[WowIsDead64]

...

I agree. I constantly try to say, that casual/hardcore isn't only about time commitment. It's about difficulty too. For example back in old times I played very hard games (may be even the hardest ones) on consoles, but it only took 1 hour a day. And I was HARDCORE back then. And now I can play for whole weekend 24/7, but I level alts and get basic rewards just for RP purposes. Because I don't want Wow to be my 2nd job or some e-sport (i.e. some place, where I need to overcome myself). And I'm casual now.

And in this terms Wow is actually very casual unfriendly now. It forces "content" on me too much. I want to do X, but game wants to artificially prolong my gaming session and force me into A, B, C content, so Blizzards' activity metrics would be "better", and I don't want to do it. For example I would want to progress in main SL's content, i.e. Covenants, but Anima aka rep 2.0 grind isn't for me. I would want to do 9.1 Covenant campaign content, but no-flying forever so called "sandbox" (in Blizzards' terms, because it has nothing to do with real sandbox) content isn't for me. And list goes on.

It's their choice, that they want to do their game for their VIP Mythic guys only. Or at least guys, who are ready to grind Anima every day for year on one character only to get crappy cheap recolors. I don't fall into this 3 main Blizzards' categories. Back in old days I had some room to avoid unwanted content and do content, I liked, the way, I preferred. But all of a sudden Blizzard seem to do everything to push such players out of their game. They close all "holes", that would allow players to play content via some "unintended" way. I.e. to bypass unnecessary obstacles. Ok. Their choice. But don't ask me to pay 35/15$ for character clones in TBC to save their next annual report then. If you want my money, you should be ready to make game, I like. Not try to milk me, while trying to clime, that you have hurbis and do your game some "right" and "intended" way.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Casual WoW (died with the arrival of WoD and Legion):

• You can stay subbed but not feel like you are forced to play the game every day. Not feel like "gosh, I'm falling behind!" by not logging in and doing all of your chores. You feel like you can not play the game for a couple weeks, and then jump in and do the latest raid without having to slog through grinds or gear farming.

• You can log in and think "hm... what do I want to do today? Oh I know, I'll do the latest reputation storyline!" or "I feel like doing Brawler's Guild stuff".

• Lots of accessible, non-raid content to do, like BGs, Arenas, Pet-Battles, hunting down artifacts in Pandaria, doing quests for the story experience, achievement hunting, transmogs to collect, etc.

Hardcore (began in WoD and Legion and exists to this day):

• You have to log in every day and do three hours of chores, or you will be falling behind and won't get invites to raid because everyone else has a higher ilevel than you/has the meta RNGendaries/azerite traits/whatever.

• There is hardly any new content added to the game that does not revolve around raiding, or chores to prepare you for raiding.

There is no such thing as a "casual raider". Just casuals. If you can't jump into a raid for fun just like that, you can't casually raid. If you have to slog through weeks of prepwork and chores just to do raiding, you're a hardcore raider.

Casual players play for fun. Once something stops being fun and starts being work, they're going to stop doing that thing. Hardcores are masochists who inexplicably think chores and slog are somehow fun and prestigious.

[Surfacin9]

Casual-Casual: Does simpler content at a laid back pace/perhaps doesn't play too much.
Hardcore-Casual: Does simpler content, but puts a lot more time into it.
Casual-Hardcore: Does higher end content, but doesn't put many hours in (this is where I mostly land nowadays).
Hardcore-Hardcore: Does higher end content & plays a ridiculous amount.

This is the better description, in my opinion than the OP's. As there is no black & white, there are lots of shades in-between. You can't really distinguish by 1 parameter. I'd probably add anohter layer between Casual-Hardcore and Hardcore-Hardcore. As far as mythic raiding goes, you have World and Server top 5 guilds, rest of the Hall of Fame, CE but not Hall of Fame guilds, guilds that clear more than a half of the raid on mythic, and guilds that clear less than a half. So may be a skill/effort parameter could be added there.

Personally, I would judge the hardcoreness by the end-game activities - raiding, m+ and pvp. Pet battles, mount/xmog farming, AH are their own activities and hardcore players withing them are in a league of their own, as they, imho, care the least about the expansion systems and gear, which are the hottest discussion topics around the 'casual vs hardcore'.

- - - Updated - - -

Casual WoW (died with the arrival of WoD and Legion):

• You can stay subbed but not feel like you are forced to play the game every day. Not feel like "gosh, I'm falling behind!" by not logging in and doing all of your chores. You feel like you can not play the game for a couple weeks, and then jump in and do the latest raid without having to slog through grinds or gear farming.

• You can log in and think "hm... what do I want to do today? Oh I know, I'll do the latest reputation storyline!" or "I feel like doing Brawler's Guild stuff".

• Lots of accessible, non-raid content to do, like BGs, Arenas, Pet-Battles, hunting down artifacts in Pandaria, doing quests for the story experience, achievement hunting, transmogs to collect, etc.

Hardcore (began in WoD and Legion and exists to this day):

• You have to log in every day and do three hours of chores, or you will be falling behind and won't get invites to raid because everyone else has a higher ilevel than you/has the meta RNGendaries/azerite traits/whatever.

• There is hardly any new content added to the game that does not revolve around raiding, or chores to prepare you for raiding.

There is no such thing as a "casual raider". Just casuals. If you can't jump into a raid for fun just like that, you can't casually raid. If you have to slog through weeks of prepwork and chores just to do raiding, you're a hardcore raider.

Casual players play for fun. Once something stops being fun and starts being work, they're going to stop doing that thing. Hardcores are masochists who inexplicably think chores and slog are somehow fun and prestigious.

Kinda depends on what your goals in the game are, doesn't it? If you were simply a raid-logger pre-Legion, then for you the game did become hardcore. The majority of raiders used to log-in quite often and they found nothing to do, while they wanted to do something. Its the WoD lack of content besides raiding and pvp that created the current game. And now we have lots of things to do besides raiding and pvp, and world was revitalized to an extent.

'There is hardly any new content added to the game that does not revolve around raiding, or chores to prepare you for raiding' - every patch adds a new zone with rares, treasures, other activities. The fact that they have some player power attached to them are there to: a) make it worth the while for end-game players, so that they don't feel like they have to choose between power progression and side activites; b) attract a broader spectrum of players.

It seems you haven't played in a while and are judging the game by the last thing you did - AP and legendaries farm in Legion.
'won't get invites to raid because everyone else has a higher ilevel than you/has the meta RNGendaries/azerite traits/whatever' - what groups are you trying to join? Mythic progression? It was always ilvl and experience as the factors that you are judged on when considered for a farm group, especially late in the patch; to a lesser extent it was the class Meta, but I've been in plenty of sire hc pugs that had havoc DHs there which are not-considered meta. As for a closer inspection, back in Wrath (the dawn of pug raiding, since there was barely any in TBC), for harder content people inspected players' talents, gems, enchants and glyphs.

'If you can't jump into a raid for fun just like that, you can't casually raid' - there's LFR, normal, even heroic, that require minimum prep-work.

Each of your arguments is waaaay off, not sure you've played the game in a while or did much of end-game content.

[WowIsDead64]

For me I'd rather mix my own interpretation of the terms with the interpretation most commonly held. For example, the guy doing 7 hours of mythic raiding each week is pretty casual to me, though many would consider that hardcore. On the flipside, the guy farming transmog for 20 hours a week is the definition of casual for most, yet that sort of commitment is very hardcore in my view.

So I'd say it's something like the following:

Casual-Casual: Does simpler content at a laid back pace/perhaps doesn't play too much.
Hardcore-Casual: Does simpler content, but puts a lot more time into it.
Casual-Hardcore: Does higher end content, but doesn't put many hours in (this is where I mostly land nowadays).
Hardcore-Hardcore: Does higher end content & plays a ridiculous amount.

There's definitely a better way to word it than that, but yeah... If you ask me who's more casual, a guy farming transmog 20 hours a week or the guy doing 2 nights of raiding a week, I'm 100% going to go with the latter while understanding most people would probably say the former.

That's why I used this graph at some point:

[T-34]

Casual vs. Hardcore is not enough to define what makes a WoW-player. I need 3 criteria to do that:

1. Casual vs Hardcore describes how much time/energy a person puts in to the game.

A Casual might play 1 hour this week, not play next week and maybe play 12 hours the next week. A hardcore will always do his best to find time and prioritizes WoW high above other hobbies/interests.
There seems to be more or less the same amount of Casuals and Hardcore players.

2. Competitive vs. non-competitive describes a persons attitude to the game

A competitive person will always do his best, try to better himself and measures himself against his peers. That doesn't mean that a competitive person is always highly progressed. You can find such people in Heroic, Normal guilds. You can even see such people in LFR.
A non-competitive person doesn't see his personal performance as a factor for enjoying the game. He doesn't measure himself against his peers, which doesn't mean at all that he doesn't enjoy playing with other people. Such people are virtually non-existent in Mythic guilds.
There seems to be a bit more non-competitive than competitive players, but the difference isn't lopsided

Or with other words a competitive person sees WoW as co-operative game that has a win-state or lose-state, whereas the non-competitive person sees WoW more as social experience.

Added:
Competitive players can both be Casual and Hardcore - time isn't a factor - attitude is.
Non-competitive players can also be Casual and Hardcore - time isn't a factor -attitude is.

3. Entitled vs. self-aware.

An Entitled player expects and demands that the game should fully conform to his needs, even though that would make the game in to another game. He also expects other players to play with him and in a way that the Entitled players wants and when the Entitled players wants it.
Entitled players are unable to self-organize and need Self-aware players to organize co-operative gameplay for them.

A Self-aware player knows what he finds fun, knows his limits, doesn't expect other people to cater to to him. A Self-aware player is naturally drawn to other players that have the same play-style as he has. Self-aware players are able to use their social skills to self-organize.
Self-aware players are equally represented amongst both casuals and hardcore and amongst competitive and non-competitive players.

Entitled players are a tiny minority in-game, but are over-represented here.
So your "forum wars" on this site aren't between Casuals and Hardcore, but between Entitled and Self-aware players.

[Shaqthefat]

Casual WoW (died with the arrival of WoD and Legion):

• You can stay subbed but not feel like you are forced to play the game every day. Not feel like "gosh, I'm falling behind!" by not logging in and doing all of your chores. You feel like you can not play the game for a couple weeks, and then jump in and do the latest raid without having to slog through grinds or gear farming.

• You can log in and think "hm... what do I want to do today? Oh I know, I'll do the latest reputation storyline!" or "I feel like doing Brawler's Guild stuff".

• Lots of accessible, non-raid content to do, like BGs, Arenas, Pet-Battles, hunting down artifacts in Pandaria, doing quests for the story experience, achievement hunting, transmogs to collect, etc.

Hardcore (began in WoD and Legion and exists to this day):

• You have to log in every day and do three hours of chores, or you will be falling behind and won't get invites to raid because everyone else has a higher ilevel than you/has the meta RNGendaries/azerite traits/whatever.

• There is hardly any new content added to the game that does not revolve around raiding, or chores to prepare you for raiding.

There is no such thing as a "casual raider". Just casuals. If you can't jump into a raid for fun just like that, you can't casually raid. If you have to slog through weeks of prepwork and chores just to do raiding, you're a hardcore raider.

Casual players play for fun. Once something stops being fun and starts being work, they're going to stop doing that thing. Hardcores are masochists who inexplicably think chores and slog are somehow fun and prestigious.

Hardcore players play for fun. We don't find the amount of work needed to raid fun either, but we find raiding really fun because raiding hard bosses is fun.

Also lol, WoD was the most casual you could be in WoW. You literally had to do nothing. WoD is the only expansion in the game where you could get full mythic gear by just logging on and doing garrison missions. The most casual friendly WoW expansion.

[ohwell]

I tend to go with time investment myself though I admit it can be lax at times. Generally if you spend more then twelve hours in the game working towards a singular goal I would consider you hardcore. Difficulty doesn't really play into from my perspective since that tends to sort itself out via experience and drive. Without even focusing on the content I could tackle most of the game so I find it isn't accurate enough when defined by investment.

I see trivial content that effects the hardest to be the most pro hardcore content in the game as it exists to do nothing but reward those who invest significant time into the game and nothing else.

That's my thing about saying "it has nothing to do with time invested" when the claim about gear etc that people keep saying about "casuals have no access to good gear" etc which then turns into yes they do, they just choose not to do so which then turns into "they don't have time or the ability to commit" when is usually countered by a fact that the people making these claims log more hours than a lot of raiders and it's just a stubbornness issue if anything. If you really don't have the time to commit to the game you're not using your time well then if you really aren't bad or stubborn.

You can raid heroic on a very small time frame at this point. You're not "casual" if you're in game hours upon hours upon hours and then come complaining about gear here. You're simply stubborn.

[Paperfox]

Nicely said.

[ro9ue]

Casual-Casual: Does simpler content at a laid back pace/perhaps doesn't play too much.
Hardcore-Casual: Does simpler content, but puts a lot more time into it.
Casual-Hardcore: Does higher end content, but doesn't put many hours in (this is where I mostly land nowadays).
Hardcore-Hardcore: Does higher end content & plays a ridiculous amount.

This is a good description matrix. It's like a D&D alignment chart.

There's definitely a try-hard implication with hardcore. Either that means you're going to pull the lever on a 1% drop horse by making 50 alts and running a raid every week, or you're reading every guide, wiki, watching every video, getting every enchant and upgrade for a mythic raid encounter.

I have a hard time under any circumstance calling a mythic raider a casual. You just have to do too much shit to get fully geared out, enchanted, upgraded, etc.

Like the investment into grinding out Venari rep is a one time thing but you still did it to get your sockets or whatever the hell it is. And I see people saying they only raid 9hrs a week. That's a lot of time on a game...

Plus when you consider how many weeks are repeatedly wiping on the same boss to learn mechanics. That's just not casual.

Casual is like. Casual jeans day at work. Being comfy. Chill.

Also don't think it's correlated with skill, though there is a byproduct - generally - that the more time you spend doing something the better you get at it. And even if you were a once skilled player, the new borrowed power systems often make your knowledge outdated pretty quick.

Idk it's one of those know it when you see it things.

[munkeyinorbit]

For me I'd rather mix my own interpretation of the terms with the interpretation most commonly held. For example, the guy doing 7 hours of mythic raiding each week is pretty casual to me, though many would consider that hardcore. On the flipside, the guy farming transmog for 20 hours a week is the definition of casual for most, yet that sort of commitment is very hardcore in my view.

So I'd say it's something like the following:

Casual-Casual: Does simpler content at a laid back pace/perhaps doesn't play too much.
Hardcore-Casual: Does simpler content, but puts a lot more time into it.
Casual-Hardcore: Does higher end content, but doesn't put many hours in (this is where I mostly land nowadays).
Hardcore-Hardcore: Does higher end content & plays a ridiculous amount.

There's definitely a better way to word it than that, but yeah... If you ask me who's more casual, a guy farming transmog 20 hours a week or the guy doing 2 nights of raiding a week, I'm 100% going to go with the latter while understanding most people would probably say the former.

WRONG. Just WRONG.

Time has nothing to do with casual or hardcore. It is always the content, never the time invested. Trying to add more labels to something that already has a straight forward definition is just ridiculous. You sound like the crowd that tried to shoehorn the semi hardcore label when guild recruiting. We all know what that label means. It means we are bad and we are trying to do mythic raiding when we have no business being there.

Here is the definitive meanings.

Hardcore. I do hardcore content. That is regular organized raiding at heroic or higher AND/OR I weekly max ilvl in the vault.

Casual. I don't raid H or higher regular AND/OR I have trouble maxing my vault ilvl every week. I am not a good player.

If we were to add another level it would be below casual. I name it NonPlayer.

Definition. "I like playing solo. I never do pugs because people are mean. I deserve the best gear because I pay my sub. This expansion called <Insert expansion name> is the worse because Blizzard never caters to the casuals and the elites keep blocking me from the gear I deserve. Also if I was a loser like the people in good gear and I actually no lifed wow I would have full mythic gear by now."
*Logs off after the fifth 15 hour session in a row this week.*
*Shuffles away.*
*Takes an age to turn a corner*