Rewrite the Night Warrior

[Soon-TM]

The shittiest thing a storyline can end with is resetting a character to where they were before it started, walking out of it with only some gained semantic wisdom.

It's called Anduinism, iirc

[LemonDemonGirl]

I think several characters need a rewrite, just not the Night Warrior alone

[geco]

I think several characters need a rewrite, just not the Night Warrior alone

But the Kaldorei are most loved by a large group of fans and are willing to debate on forums.

[Aucald]

That was so clearly indicated at the time and in SL too, when Cringecaller died in the second encounter. Only differences were location and Val'kyr count. Keep carrying water for Danuser.

"Carrying water for Danuser" would imply I thought that the Night Warrior story as told was great on its own, a notion obviously belied by the fact I posed a "fix" I felt would make it work better. As for the rest of your argument, we knew Sylvanas was being empowered since the close of BfA's second arc, just not the specifics. For all we know Sylvanas might've been able to take out N'Zoth if she'd been of a mind to (in the end N'Zoth wasn't the threat his self-promotion tried to sell us).

[druchii5]

My personal opinion and rewrite: remove the Night Warrior arch entirely.

Tyrande and the Night Elves should have been badass on their own without any needed "extra" powers to further their race's story arch.

[starstationprofm]

Like a lot of posters, I'm pretty salty about the whole Night Warrior arc. I think it was a waste! Inspired by a random commentor in another thread (who said they would like to see how these story tellers do a better job than Blizzard, I'd like to invite you to rewrite the arc.

Personally, I would have Tyrande come in at the end of the Sylvanas encounter to try for a kill steal and die in the attempt, at this stage I don't really care if she is successful or not. Bonus points if Anduin has a hand in her demise. I wouldn't mind a Ysera style intervention from Elune, as she closes her eyes for the last time.

The whole draining of power and Tyrande realising vengeance is not what the night elves need is tepid and not worthy of the franchise.

Tyrande kills Nathanos in Darkshore with the Night Warrior powers. He doesn't really do anything the rest of the expansion.

In Shadowlands she stays the same, but in the new patch, instead of failing to stop Sylvanas, she manages to banish her back into the Maw. She then helps us defeat her in the raid encounter after losing the NW powers

I think that's satisfying.

What I hate is the idea that Tyrande could and should solo the Horde with her new powers. Why? How? Do you know how many God-powered mortals we've killed? How many 'gods' we've killed? How many Loa? How many Wild Gods?

Why would Tyrande with Elune's powers be more special than Ursoc or Cenarius, who are actual Wild Gods?

[Feanoro]

"Carrying water for Danuser" would imply I thought that the Night Warrior story as told was great on its own, a notion obviously belied by the fact I posed a "fix" I felt would make it work better.

Your statement was it would be fine if Tyrande participates in the raid. No, the story up until the raid would not suddenly be improved by that. It would still have the supposedly dangerously powerful Night Warrior failing to do sweet fuck-all but lose to a zombie with a bow and say mean words to Thrall in a book. Your proposing a "fix" doesn't negate you excusing the bulk of the story.

As for the rest of your argument, we knew Sylvanas was being empowered since the close of BfA's second arc, just not the specifics. For all we know Sylvanas might've been able to take out N'Zoth if she'd been of a mind to (in the end N'Zoth wasn't the threat his self-promotion tried to sell us).

That's nice, we were talking about Nathanos, who showed no such empowerment, not even the Sylvie "surprise! bullshit powers from nowhere!" You want to claim Nate was empowered by the Jailer? On you to prove that, meaning evidence that was the writers' intention, not you speculating an explanation to fill in the gaping plot holes. You also have ignored the inconvenient fact that Nate died the second time.

Thank you though for pointing out a fine example of Danuser shitting on existing lore though, in rendering N'Zoth to be less impactful than a wet fart.


If the story requires the reader to either ignore inconsistencies and violations of its own rules or invent explanations to cover those sins, it's poorly written, not "fine" with a slight "fix".

[geco]

What I hate is the idea that Tyrande could and should solo the Horde with her new powers. Why? How? Do you know how many God-powered mortals we've killed? How many 'gods' we've killed? How many Loa? How many Wild Gods?

Why would Tyrande with Elune's powers be more special than Ursoc or Cenarius, who are actual Wild Gods?

We are far above the level of the random Horde troops.
I'm sure when they talk about killing the "Horde" they don't imagine either the players or Thrall. But thousands of soldiers.


Bone normal Thrall could destroy several ally ships without problem and Talanji as well.
I mean destroying army of random is the least I should be able to do.

[starstationprofm]

We are far above the level of the random Horde troops.
I'm sure when they talk about killing the "Horde" they don't imagine either the players or Thrall. But thousands of soldiers.


Bone normal Thrall could destroy several ally ships without problem and Talanji as well.
I mean destroying army of random is the least I should be able to do.

Tyrande should quite frankly not be much stronger than Thrall at his peak.

Thousands of soldiers is too much, imo.

[gaymer77]

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention to this whole storyline from the new stuff not yet added to the live game. Can someone give those of us not reading PTR stuff the tl;dr breakdown of what is going to happen in the arc?

As for the whole question about what I would have done, I would have had the Night Warrior overcome her and she die a horrible death as she was trying to confront Sylvanas but dies before she is able to actually engage her in battle. Maybe have that be what triggers the player to fight Sylvanas in the raid.

[javierdsv]

Your opinion here, or even in Blizzards forums won't affect the story that's been pretty much already written since years ago and they are now probably writing the next expansion plot.

Just like it or hate it, and move on.

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention to this whole storyline from the new stuff not yet added to the live game. Can someone give those of us not reading PTR stuff the tl;dr breakdown of what is going to happen in the arc?

Basically she fails and a ritual is done that takes her out of the Night Warrior stance, and she claims seeking vengeance was wrong and everyone cries with her, even the Winter Queen because of an Elune Tear that's her sister. And then everyone lives happily ever after.

[Aucald]

Your statement was it would be fine if Tyrande participates in the raid. No, the story up until the raid would not suddenly be improved by that. It would still have the supposedly dangerously powerful Night Warrior failing to do sweet fuck-all but lose to a zombie with a bow and say mean words to Thrall in a book. Your proposing a "fix" doesn't negate you excusing the bulk of the story.

True, but nowhere is it stated that "fine" is a ringing endorsement of the story, either - unless your bar for praise is set really, really low. I also don't really think the Night Warrior arc qualifies anywhere near "the bulk of the story," either, so most of the above is a convenient strawman on your part. I think the story would've been improved by giving Tyrande an actual resolution concerning her vendetta against Sylvanas, said resolution concerning itself with the raid (where Sylvanas is scheduled to appear). Ain't my job to re-write the story, nor do I care to. If you want to take up that banner I would suggest you write a strongly-worded e-mail to Danuser c/o Blizzard. Good luck to you and your literary circle.

That's nice, we were talking about Nathanos, who showed no such empowerment, not even the Sylvie "surprise! bullshit powers from nowhere!" You want to claim Nate was empowered by the Jailer? On you to prove that, meaning evidence that was the writers' intention, not you speculating an explanation to fill in the gaping plot holes. You also have ignored the inconvenient fact that Nate died the second time.

Thank you though for pointing out a fine example of Danuser shitting on existing lore though, in rendering N'Zoth to be less impactful than a wet fart.


If the story requires the reader to either ignore inconsistencies and violations of its own rules or invent explanations to cover those sins, it's poorly written, not "fine" with a slight "fix".

*You* mentioned Blightcaller for some reason, and like Sylvanas Tyrande has also been stated to be growing in power (as well as instability). I never claimed that Nathanos was empowered by the Jailer, either; but Tyrande seemed to handle him quite handily. Nathanos doesn't seem any worse for wear at the beginning of the cut-scene in which Tyrande defeats him, laughing at the assembled raid until she pegs him to the Marris Stead with a single arrow. Empowered or no, it was a much better showing than the initial one at Darkshore.

I also never made the claim that the story was written great, or even well - you tried to do that for me via the same strawman tactics as always. If you want to be Danuser's professional literary critic then by all means do so, but I don't care one way or the other.

[VladlTutushkin]

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention to this whole storyline from the new stuff not yet added to the live game. Can someone give those of us not reading PTR stuff the tl;dr breakdown of what is going to happen in the arc?

As for the whole question about what I would have done, I would have had the Night Warrior overcome her and she die a horrible death as she was trying to confront Sylvanas but dies before she is able to actually engage her in battle. Maybe have that be what triggers the player to fight Sylvanas in the raid.

Why do you dislike Tyrande so much?

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True, but nowhere is it stated that "fine" is a ringing endorsement of the story, either - unless your bar for praise is set really, really low. I also don't really think the Night Warrior arc qualifies anywhere near "the bulk of the story," either, so most of the above is a convenient strawman on your part. I think the story would've been improved by giving Tyrande an actual resolution concerning her vendetta against Sylvanas, said resolution concerning itself with the raid (where Sylvanas is scheduled to appear). Ain't my job to re-write the story, nor do I care to. If you want to take up that banner I would suggest you write a strongly-worded e-mail to Danuser c/o Blizzard. Good luck to you and your literary circle.



*You* mentioned Blightcaller for some reason, and like Sylvanas Tyrande has also been stated to be growing in power (as well as instability). I never claimed that Nathanos was empowered by the Jailer, either; but Tyrande seemed to handle him quite handily. Nathanos doesn't seem any worse for wear at the beginning of the cut-scene in which Tyrande defeats him, laughing at the assembled raid until she pegs him to the Marris Stead with a single arrow. Empowered or no, it was a much better showing than the initial one at Darkshore.

I also never made the claim that the story was written great, or even well - you tried to do that for me via the same strawman tactics as always. If you want to be Danuser's professional literary critic then by all means do so, but I don't care one way or the other.

If you implying that Danuser’s employment in Blizzard makes him somehow more competent then either us or some less known writer then you are wrong. Half of the process of getting such a job is OFTEN (not always) having right connections and a huge portion of nepotism. Often then not complete idiots end up in high positions because of a combination of those factors.

[Aucald]

If you implying that Danuser’s employment in Blizzard makes him somehow more competent then either us or some less known writer then you are wrong. Half of the process of getting such a job is OFTEN (not always) having right connections and a huge portion of nepotism. Often then not complete idiots end up in high positions because of a combination of those factors.

Not implying that at all - I'm just saying that I choose not to take up the job of fixing WoW's lore, and while I'll offer criticism and/or suggestions, when it comes to rehoming the entirety of the lore I have neither the aptitude nor the desire to do Danuser's job either for him or in his place. I know I am, personally speaking, not up to that task - other writers or even some posters may be up to that task (or at least think they are), and that's their cross to bear as the saying goes.

I also, by extension, don't consider Danuser himself the totem other people seem to - he's not the sole and overarching writer for the entirety of WoW. He is WoW's Lead Narrative Designer, more a manager than a writer, basically heading a team of writers whose sum product is actually the story of WoW. Neither for that matter is Christie Golden, or Madeleine Roux, or whoever else the unhappy crowd is mad at for any given point in WoW's long tenure. WoW's story is the product of a team of writers working across multiple forms of media (the game, the novels, the short stories, the comics, etc. etc.), and at the end of the day people are more or less flailing at its public face as opposed to those who are actually responsible.

[gaymer77]

Why do you dislike Tyrande so much?

Even when I first started playing WoW and made my NE druid I couldn't stand her once I started getting into the game. She's always came across as weak and whiny. Then she started getting more whiny as Malfurion came into the picture and over the past few expansions she's been completely cringe every time she's been involved in story. "Where are you Malfurion, answer me!" "Where are you Tyrande? I need you" "Hold on my love. I am near." "Malfurion my love, where are you?" Any of those phrases ring a bell and make you cringe?

[sam86]

Oh yeah, Org was left a smoking crater after that raid! Wait no, not a damn thing happened to it. Oh no, you lost Garrosh? No shit, his endgame was exterminating everything but his Orcs. That won't happen if only for business reasons. Even then, Garrosh was a dumpster fire of a character who was most memorably summed up by Metzen: "KILL KILL KILL KILL".

The Alliance has been on the receiving end of multiple genocide attempts, several towns and cities wiped off the map, and wins only by the other faction fucking up. Any victories it has are offscreen if they even bother to mention them, and loaded with ifs and buts.

u really don't like how alliance won every major war, are only supreme power of azeroth, have more lands under their control, and u get to fuck horde on weekly basis too in a raid that every warrior at least raided it to death for transmog?
what exactly did horde get better treatment to want to go horde exactly? or for that matter any non-human race in wow on both sides?
Also u really using genocide card against horde, when alliance tried to kill every living belf twice, every goblin of kezan for just exist, every darkspear troll for just exist (they were literally in an island in middle of sea, what alliance do? let's kill them for dare to exist in their own island in middle of nowhere), every forsaken for dare to die and getting rezzed against their own will by lich king then break free? and that counting current alliance, we not talking about the actual only successful genocide in azeroth by also alliance hands against trolls everywhere to take their empires as their own
Yeah horde say kill, but alliance are way better and more efficient in it

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The problem is that the Night Warrior exists without a clear goal

I thought its goal was to show that Tyrande got consumed by desire of vengeance so hard she will pay any price to kill Sylvannas in revenge, that was the shown goal

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Even when I first started playing WoW and made my NE druid I couldn't stand her once I started getting into the game. She's always came across as weak and whiny. Then she started getting more whiny as Malfurion came into the picture and over the past few expansions she's been completely cringe every time she's been involved in story. "Where are you Malfurion, answer me!" "Where are you Tyrande? I need you" "Hold on my love. I am near." "Malfurion my love, where are you?" Any of those phrases ring a bell and make you cringe?

u reminded me why i hate both of them
Mal/Tyrande exist in wow to cringe us it seems more than anything else, i love u u love me and so on, non ending parade of bullshit love
annoying

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I also, by extension, don't consider Danuser himself the totem other people seem to - he's not the sole and overarching writer for the entirety of WoW.

He is still the main reason behind all those Nathanos x Sylvannas fanfiction, the guy has a boner for a goth chick and he seems the type who will do anything to put his fanfic influence in official wow
He is the type of guy who has a body pillow of his favorite fictional character, and he has power to implement his ideas in wow, sorry he is mostly the one behind all this shit we see
Did they clip his presence? Mostly, he probably was forced to shove lot of his fiction ideas up to his ass after he became - an earned and well deserved - target of hate of many wow players, but to claim a guy like him didn't have the biggest impact in his waifu story is ignorance, he is at least responsible for most BFA story about Sylvannas and i'd also add he is reason why she became so OP that she broke Bolvar helmet without a sweat, he is mostly restrained in further BFA story but up to that point I'm willing to bet my life on that
There is no way a guy with a waifu pillow suddenly in position he can make his waifu the ultimate of everything and not try his best to force as many of those ideas as possible
If i get hired by blizz for example I have clear bias against wow humans, imo a deserved one since i hate how wow story is more and more sucking human dicks from both factions

[haiyken]

I think the issue about Tyrande as the Night Warrior is that the character had barely time to shine in the overall story. I think it would have been interesting to have Tyrande in this state for multiple expansions and see her going down a more violent path progressively, even without the goal of killing Sylvanas and avenging Teldrassil. Because in the end, she's pretty justified in wanting to do that in the first place and Elune granting her the Night Warrior's powers means that the goddess is okay with this in a way. What would have been interesting is: what about all that power when she achieves her goal and avenge her people? It would have been a cool arc to follow and an interesting contrast with the passiveness of Malfurion, making possible a new dynamic between the two.

I also dislike how the Night Warrior's storyline gets to be resolved in the afterlife somehow, since it's supposed to be tied to Elune herself, not Ardenweald or the Winter Queen. I think it's interesting to have past Night Warriors interact with Tyrande to give perspective on where this power comes from and the (dark) path it leads to, but it should have been resolved differently, in my opinion. Right now, it feels too much disconnected from the Night Elf lore and legends. Elune should not be that connected to Death.

[DatToffer]

True true.
But I prefer a bad story with fanservis than a bad story that is based on insulting the fans over and over again.

I guess if we have to chose the good in the bad, it better comes to this, yeah.

[Larodar]

I'd write a questline where Tyrande seeks the help of the Ren'dorei to better control her new powers, since it was said that her Night powers risked overwhelming her from the inside and were dangerous, a plight similar to that of the Ren'dorei. The Ren'dorei also live literally in an asteroid floating amidst the stars, so you could tie in Telogrus Rift with Elune (Moon Goddess) lore. It's not a particularly complex connection to make.

Blizzard even set up Ren'dorei/Kaldorei partnership in BfA with the alliance betweeen Magister Umbric and Shandris. Not having Alleria or Umbric help Tyrande control her powers was a missed opportunity for character development.

But knowing Blizzard and how much they love Anduin, they'd probably find a way to shoehorn Anduin into a Ren'dorei/Kaldorei training session.

Completely agreed. I can't understand the lack of communication between the elven sub factions neither.

[Rozz]

I thought its goal was to show that Tyrande got consumed by desire of vengeance so hard she will pay any price to kill Sylvannas in revenge, that was the shown goal

That's a consequence, but not a goal. There has to be a reason to introduce it into the story, we only got the consequences and pay off of it remaining but no point to it existing.
What did they want to achieve with Night Warrior Tyrande? Because as it is, it was a pointless story that just further empowered an overpowered character. Tyrande will always be as strong as Elune makes her, so it isn't even significantly different from what she can already do. Just theoretically stronger, but that's not portrayed well in-game.

It'd be like Palidans existing as an extension of Priesthood, but they never achieved anything besides existing, having some problems, then quietly existing. Not the whole: playing a major role in defeating the Horde and Arthas.