Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[delus]

You involve additional cash into the game to have an advantage or win = Pay to Win.

Exactly, that includes paying people to power level you or giving them cash for in-game currency and using it for other goods and services from other players. So that makes all games pay to win to some extent.

[rhorle]

Raid carries for gold are not against the terms of service. You pay for a Token with Cash and sell a Token for gold, you get gold, you pay to the player, you get raid carried = You win = Pay to Win

A raid carry for gold is not the same as what you actually stated. You don't pay any real money to get carried. You pay gold. That is the end of that transaction because the token is a service the same as a subscription by your own definitions.

[iinverse]

You paid Cash to get to 50 instantly = Pay to Win.

You got from 50 to 60 by doing quests, dungeons, killing enemies, etc.... = You played the game = No Pay to Win

Its not a win, its just one not significant step.

Lets try another approach. Can you p2w this guy? Or first guy in this leaderboard?

[Pretorian]

Time used to level up is irrelevant. You Pay Cash to take advantage and be max level instantly = Pay to Win

But you do NOT get max lvl instantly! You just skip some levels.
@Rhole, just drop it mate, clearly you can't make them understand other points of view but their own.
These type of people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

@TheRevenantHero - for someone who writes so well and articulate, you are incredibly inflexible in your thought process. And the fact that you keep saying "utterly asinine " and "stop it" denotes someone that is very full of himself, patronising and is never wrong by default.

This is why I don't have too many posts on this forum, even though I've been aroud for a very long time.

[rhorle]

You paid Cash to get gold from the Token = You get carried with said gold = Pay to Win Remove "Cash and Token" from that sentence and is going to turn into "No Pay to Win".

So using gold for a carry is pay to win but using gold for a carry is not pay to win. The source of the gold is irrelevant to what the gold is buying. A token is a service for trading gold between players. X gold for $15. Nothing more, nothing less. A micro transaction. What is done with that gold is irrelevant to the service being provided by Blizzard.

The gold itself is not a win. The win has to be a service provided by other players and specifically only for gold (or some other in-game commodity)

[iinverse]

You used "Cash" to get an advantage over other people who need to put time and effort on it = Pay to Win

Remove "Cash" and is no longer a pay to win

So what about those guys? Can you p2w them?

[TheRevenantHero]

But you do NOT get max lvl instantly! You just skip some levels.
@Rhole, just drop it mate, clearly you can't make them understand other points of view but their own.
These type of people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

@TheRevenantHero - for someone who writes so well and articulate, you are incredibly inflexible in your thought process. And the fact that you keep saying "utterly asinine " and "stop it" denotes someone that is very full of himself, patronising and is never wrong by default.

This is why I don't have too many posts on this forum, even though I've been aroud for a very long time.

I'm fully willing to admit when I'm wrong when someone presents evidence that I am wrong. Nobody has done that in this thread. People try to say that paid character boosts aren't an advantage when they are by definition just to avoid calling woW p2w. If you can spend real money to gain character power, it's p2w. Period.

[iinverse]

If you pay "Cash" to get carried that far = Pay to win too
You paid "Cash" to get a "rank" = Pay to win

You didn't paid "Cash" and got a "Rank" = You played the game = No pay to win

I repeat my question. Can you p2w these guys? I believe not. So how is it p2w if you can't win those guys who are f2p?

[darklogrus]

I'm fully willing to admit when I'm wrong when someone presents evidence that I am wrong. Nobody has done that in this thread. People try to say that paid character boosts aren't an advantage when they are by definition just to avoid calling woW p2w. If you can spend real money to gain character power, it's p2w. Period.

Well these are the same people arguing that my buddy buying his 2400+ Pvp raiting wasn't P2W..

[Mokuna]

The only pay to win aspect is the boes at the start of a raid progress for progress guilds, which can get really silly and problematic as the world first race drama has shown (especially in nyalotha with silly powerful corruption items), spending millions of golds(which is basically a cryptocurrency at this point) to get an advantage there is no way to make up for over other guilds.

Buying boosts isn't paying to win, you don't win anything by purchasing a boost, you get someone better helping you towards a reward, then you just go back to your initial point, you can't do anything on your own and your achievement has no value, because the real value was in the experience of getting it.

Noone's gonna get into a great guild because he purchased a gear boost, or high level pvp because he got boosted to rank 1, it will inevitably show very quickly, and that might even hurt your game experience as you're clearly seen as a boosted player.

[P for Pancetta]

Advantage over WHO?! Buying a boost so I can skip some levels does not give me an advantage over anyone, it just saves me time. I'm not buying max level straight away or super duper armor with it. It's just an optional QoL feature.

You buy a token from another player that farmed that gold in game, via Blizzard's approved system called Auction House. If no players farm gold, no players can buy tokens. It's a form of trade goods. WHAT you do with the gold in game afterwards, is not Blizzard's business; if you choose to buy a mount, leather, herbs or a CN boost, it's your choice but seems like this directly affects the definition of P2W now, isn't it?

P2W would be if would have, let's say, tier armor systems where in game you have T1 to T5 available to anyone but in the Blizzard shop you can buy T6 and T7 with $$, and those two you cannot acquire them in game by any means. Or a mount that's 20% faster than any other mounts in game and can only be acquired with real money.
As long as everyone pays the same subscription fee, has access to the full game, the items sold in the official shop are just cosmetic and do not give you any unfair power advantage against other players, the game cannot be classed as P2W.

What players choose to do between them in the game should not affect the definition of the game itself.

It does grand a significant and in reality observable and quantifiable advantage over other players. This is an easily observable fact, not my opinion.
Denying it is delusional. You're engaging in denialism.

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Gatcha-style gameplay and therefore TCG is still a form of pay-to-win, the biggest spenders in freemium MMOs spend upwards of $100k+ on gatcha rolls, and it's still Pay-to-Win when they do it. You don't 'win' very much, just rare mounts and cosmetics, but you still gain something based on the consumption of real life money.

It's not P2W because P2W describe a specific business model. While TCG most certainly had certain aspects that overlap with P2W it's a different beast altogether.
In a discussion about a singular topic it's important to be specific. Muddying the waters only bogs down the conversation.

[Lochton]

People who think it's not pay to win are living life with thier head in the sand

Eh, some maybe, but people who chant that token and boost is P2W but not TCG loot cards because it has more steps are just as blind to it.

[Procrustes]

In which case...don't spend it on a computer game. Go out. Be with people.

If you tell me you have anxieties or don't like ppl and rather be in a computer game. type in your "/played". It might come at 300 days, 600 day...over a 1000 days. Each day in the game at 24 hours.

Who are we kidding that at this point you are saving time. Ho it is the " The most valuable resource in our life" if you piss it away in a game?

I don’t play a lot. And don’t rush for end game. I am against any content skip and any paid service except realm transfer (can’t think of other).

Maybe you understood wrongly, and think that I am pro boosting or even neutral?

[P for Pancetta]

[QUOTE=Gehco;53225076]I was talking game-time, not subscription service. The token is, at your direct purchase, a product of game-time.

But the TCG loot cards are designed to trade, and Blizzard DID receive money from the TCG sales when it was printed.

Yes they got paid for the license and probably portion of the profits but as I said before the lootcards are not the main point of the TCG game. P2W is a business model that wasn't properly developed by the time TCG was launched. It was cancelled because of heartstone.

Something we can agree on.

Wrong, you don't agree on facts. you agree on opinions. you stated something which is factually true. We don't agree on anything.

No, it was designed and generated by Blizzard, you even claim it in-game.

Wrong, like I said before it was not designed and developed by Blizzard but by Upper Deck Entertainment and later continued by Cryptozoic. I told you you were wrong, and instead of checking if what I said holds any truth you just say no, are you utterly dense? had you googled it you'd have find I was right and you wouldn't have looked like such complete idiot right now.

So, now we're saying, that if there are more steps, it is not P2W, even though Blizzard profits from the sale of it when it was produced? Nowadays, it is not produced but you still use your real money to purchase it, with a chance to gain gold if tradeable. It stops being P2W once every TCG code has been claimed or expired. Currently no date on expiration but it has been a topic apparently.

No that's not what we're saying, I'm a single person not a group. What I'm saying is it's not P2W because it doesn't meet the criteria. You don't buy these individual cards from blizzard and you never could. There was never any revenue being generated separately besides the TCG game based on the lootcards. It's very simple to understand.

Is the TCG packs subject to gambling or not? Yes, it is RNG, it was deemed by higher-ups that things such as loot boxes and collection cards are gambling.

I explained perfectly fine what I meant, please read again as you're not understanding it. You can't simplify these things to black and white. I told you this before.

You can claim the item in-game. You go to a website with the code, that website generates a code that you can use in-game, in Booty Bay to get your item, and making the loot card code invalid for future use.


Why did you add this? this doesn't add anything to this discussion it's just common knowledge.

You, others, and the definition states, that Pay2Win is when you pull out your credit card and use it for an in-game advantage is Pay2Win. Do you, or do you not, pull out your credit card to purchase an approved TCG pack where within there can be an item that can be sold for gold? It is just more steps.

No that's not what me and others have stated. you misreading what we've stated. You do not pull out a credit card to buy a tcg code from blizzard, you can't because they don't sell tcg items.

But Blizzard did benefit for the card sales back in the day? And the TCG loot item does offer advantages to someone? The fact that it is a gambling chance for you to get an item makes it a far worse P2W than the token, and the TCG cards that can be traded are still on the market but now it is out of Blizzard's and the production company's grip to control the card, and thus the touch of P2W stopped when the cards stopped being produced, which was in 2013.

Please read again what I said. I debunked the exact argument you're reposting again.

To me it is simple to see once you and others locked themselves to the argument that "credit card use to gain (in many different arguments) any sort of advantage = P2W", it went far off the rail when "visual advantage" was brought on the discussion by one, or the fact that any interaction with gold use from a token was P2W by another.

I think you're staring yourself blindly on this credit card debacle of yours which you think is some got-cha but it's nothing. It's not even a coherent thought on your part.

P2W is a business model which tries to generate revenue by offering players an advantage compared to other people not paying. This means experience, gold, map unlocks, mounts, cosmetics, special emotes, skills or anything else other players can observe. It's a very simple concept.

You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying at all. Is English your first language? because I've got a feeling your grasp of the language is insufficient to be able to have a discussion like this.

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Eh, some maybe, but people who chant that token and boost is P2W but not TCG loot cards because it has more steps are just as blind to it.

This is a beautiful line right here. Because in a way you're admitting your defeat but because you can't outright do that (your ego is protecting you from emotional distress), You create a new different point were you only partly concede the argument and still put yourself on equal footing as your opposition by saying that they're just as wrong as you are.

I've explained in detail why there is a difference. Correlation does not imply causation, yet you keep implying it does.

In short you have your head stuck in the sand, and I have not.

The only TCG P2W content is the deluxe crusade edition

[Hydro-Djinn]

Since most player services or in-game items run off of gold, the easiest way to generate gold is purchase a token, provided to you buy blizzard, then put that on the AH to get gold from another player as they are likely buying it for game time.

Sure people can go over semantics and say that the player may not purchase it for a boost, but its the intention that gets ignored. It doesn't matter if, lets call them Timmy, Timmy is the worst player who is a complete keyboard turner and only uses the abilities with icons that look like they do damage. Their intent is to complete the hardest content. Timmy sees in the LFG page people selling carries of the hardest content. So Timmy decides to purchase a token and sell that token on the AH. They get gold. Timmy whispers the leader for an invite and states they have X amount of gold, they get invited and summoned. Timmy dies inevitability with 0.03 seconds of the fight, whether they get raised or not is based on the thoughts of the carry team. Boss dies eventually, Timmy gets their achievement that says they cleared the hardest raiding content WoW has to offer.

Next week, Timmy wants other stuff. They know they are bad at pvp as they always get deleted in 0.01 seconds, so they want to get their rating boosted to rank 1. This obviously is gonna cost more than a single WoW token, but Timmy has already convinced themself this is the smartest way. Eventually with the help of their PvP carriers, they are gonna get Rank 1 because they have more money than others.

After that, maybe the next day or next week Timmy hears they won't get invited to M+ because of their "Raider IO is too low". So Timmy does what they always have done and pays for a coordinated and very geared team to carry him through M+ dungeons so they can help inflate his Raider IO score. Team also funnels gear to Timmy in the process.


It doesn't matter in all of this if Timmy gets slapped back down if they actually try to do M+ Dungeons or Raiding or even just PvP. They paid money and are considered among the upper echelon of players based on their achievements, raider IO, and pvp ranking. And therefore have won the game by paying real world money for gold through a service provided by blizzard.

/thread

[Lochton]

Yes they got paid for the license and probably portion of the profits but as I said before the lootcards are not the main point of the TCG game. P2W is a business model that wasn't properly developed by the time TCG was launched. It was cancelled because of heartstone.

Blizzard had their share of the TCG sales. Loot cards were a main part of the TCG game, it was a little bit of treasure to find in a collection game, and some of these were designed to be traded

Wrong, you don't agree on facts. you agree on opinions. you stated something which is factually true. We don't agree on anything.

Whelp, now you're just arguing to argue.

Wrong, like I said before it was not designed and developed by Blizzard but by Upper Deck Entertainment and later continued by Cryptozoic. I told you you were wrong, and instead of checking if what I said holds any truth you just say no, are you utterly dense? had you googled it you'd have find I was right and you wouldn't have looked like such complete idiot right now.

Like I've said before, it WAS designed by Blizzard, I'm not talking the game itself, or its printing, I'm talking about the loot, it was a design, digital production and licensed approved by Blizzard to be developed, added and printed by the companies. Believe it or not.

No that's not what we're saying, I'm a single person not a group. What I'm saying is it's not P2W because it doesn't meet the criteria. You don't buy these individual cards from blizzard and you never could. There was never any revenue being generated separately besides the TCG game based on the lootcards. It's very simple to understand.

Does not seem to be so simple to understand as you seem to argue. Just like the token, TCG cards (within these, loot cards) generate money for Blizzard as well. These items, just like the token, can grant you gold as well. You and others have chanted that pulling out your credit card to buy an item to earn gold on, is P2W. You could do this with TCG loot cards too, just one horrible factor, it is also gambling. Now, if we loot at some MMO's, there is loot boxes that contains gambling but as well, a chance for advantage, these are also P2W.

I explained perfectly fine what I meant, please read again as you're not understanding it. You can't simplify these things to black and white. I told you this before.

Then you did not really understand. Is TCG subject to gambling? The answer is yes, double-fold even. You buy a pack, there is a gamble for what is in it, and then it is a hope that the loot card (if any) is able to be traded.

Why did you add this? this doesn't add anything to this discussion it's just common knowledge.

No you can't claim the card ingame, you claim a reward based on the code on the card. You can still sell the card itself later.

Oh, added it because you disagreed on the fact of basic description, yes, you can claim the card in-game I just wrote it a little different - it is as if, when there is more steps, you are not so keen to agree that it is in the foundation, P2W.

No that's not what me and others have stated. you misreading what we've stated. You do not pull out a credit card to buy a tcg code from blizzard, you can't because they don't sell tcg items.

But it is? Something like, "Pull out credit card -> buy item -> sell for gold = P2W" along those lines, there is plenty of comments stating this? During 2006 and 2013, you could pull out a credit card, and gamble that you got a TCG loot card that can be traded, and then sell it for gold, P2W, just more steps. Blizzard got money during this time for the sales, not directly, but that is why people started to talk about indirect P2W because then the token could be included as a P2W item.

Please read again what I said. I debunked the exact argument you're reposting again.

So, by debunking you mean Blizzard didn't receive any money from the TCG deals/licenses, and that the TCG loot card did not give an advantage, and that gold earned from selling an item purchased with a credit card, is not P2W?

I think you're staring yourself blindly on this credit card debacle of yours which you think is some got-cha but it's nothing. It's not even a coherent thought on your part.

I am not the one who has been chanting the past pages that purchases out of the game with real money currency is P2W?

P2W is a business model which tries to generate revenue by offering players an advantage compared to other people not paying. This means experience, gold, map unlocks, mounts, cosmetics, special emotes, skills or anything else other players can observe. It's a very simple concept.

You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying at all. Is English your first language? because I've got a feeling your grasp of the language is insufficient to be able to have a discussion like this.

And what are some of the BoE's from TCG able to give you with real money currency and gambling, I've got a hint, they are in bold. Playing/collecting TCG could give you an advantage over people in-game.

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This is a beautiful line right here. Because in a way you're admitting your defeat but because you can't outright do that (your ego is protecting you from emotional distress), You create a new different point were you only partly concede the argument and still put yourself on equal footing as your opposition by saying that they're just as wrong as you are.

I've explained in detail why there is a difference. Correlation does not imply causation, yet you keep implying it does.

In short you have your head stuck in the sand, and I have not.

The only TCG P2W content is the deluxe crusade edition

Dude, you have seriously been blind then. I have moved along with the discussion for a while and adjusted for it, and I've even started some 60 or so pages ago, that if people believe that the token is P2W, then the TCG is P2W, and I am gladly agreeing with them then. Literally one of the reasons I joined this chat because so many people are blinded to the part of only looking at the newest things, that they forget that the "old days" weren't always that glorious.

If it is not P2W to use a credit card to buy an item that can be sold on for gold, but with more steps (Btw, all TCG items have already paid Blizzard a share, so even current auctions of TCG tradeable loot cards are still active and endorsed by Blizzard to freely be traded for any price).

How come...

it is P2W to use a credit card to buy an item that can be sold on for gold, but with lesser steps?

[P for Pancetta]

Snip

My arguments were perfectly understandable, yet you did not comprehend them in the slightest. You didn't even bother to argue against any of my argument with points you just keep spamming the same nonsensical ramblings I've refuted many times. Read them again and please try to understand it.

[Lochton]

My arguments were perfectly understandable, yet you did not comprehend them in the slightest. You didn't even bother to argue against any of my argument with points you just keep spamming the same nonsensical ramblings I've refuted many times. Read them again and please try to understand it.

I have answered you accordingly. Even if you do not agree, the views are there, and I have my proof, moved to adjust to the discussion. I was even open to conceding that the token is Pay2Win but by that, one has to understand, that the TCG tradeable loot, is P2W too - whether you like it or not. There are definitions, and it has been talked about in this thread before, we can't just pick and choose apparently, and each our opinions of what is P2W should follow the definitions and not what we think (see the time discussion for the boost).

Since WoD (6.1.2):
Blizzard approved -> Blizzard designed and coded (Token) -> Blizzard product -> Credit card purchase, direct pay to developer -> Token delivery -> Sell for gold -> Gain an advantage over a player either with an item of interest or gold -> indirect P2W.

From October 2006 to March 2013, items unclaimed are still factors:
Blizzard approved -> Blizzard licensed -> Contracted company -> Blizzard designed and coded (TCG loot cards) -> Contracted company product development (TCG the game) -> Contracted company product production -> Contracted company product advertising -> Contracted company product retail sale, a share to the rightful owner, Blizzard -> Contracted company shipping -> Retail product advertisement -> Credit card -> Product booster packs, battle packs or single packs crossing the counter or shipped -> Gambling for the right cards (and the sweet loot) -> TCG Tradeable Loot Card -> Sell for gold -> Gain an advantage over a player either with an item of interest or gold, indirect P2W (but way too many steps).

[Stardrift]

Because that is a direct link. It is nice for you to finally understand the difference.

And what, the players offering these carries aren't a direct link..? You act like they do it all through some third party program somehow and get the money themselves.

Payment still goes to Blizzard. Players still purchase boosts. Doesn't matter what's inbetween.

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Yes. But you are not buying power with the cash. You are buying it with the gold. All gold, but 1,000, comes from people spending real money. All transactions involving gold are not considered pay to win.

Other games make you purchase a currency before you can buy player power alongside many other things. Still P2W.

In WoW, I can buy gold and use that gold to receive carries. Same thing, P2W

[P for Pancetta]

I have answered you accordingly. Even if you do not agree, the views are there, and I have my proof, moved to adjust to the discussion. I was even open to conceding that the token is Pay2Win but by that, one has to understand, that the TCG tradeable loot, is P2W too - whether you like it or not. There are definitions, and it has been talked about in this thread before, we can't just pick and choose apparently, and each our opinions of what is P2W should follow the definitions and not what we think (see the time discussion for the boost).

Since WoD (6.1.2):
Blizzard approved -> Blizzard designed and coded (Token) -> Blizzard product -> Credit card purchase, direct pay to developer -> Token delivery -> Sell for gold -> Gain an advantage over a player either with an item of interest or gold -> indirect P2W.

From October 2006 to March 2013, items unclaimed are still factors:
Blizzard approved -> Blizzard licensed -> Contracted company -> Blizzard designed and coded (TCG loot cards) -> Contracted company product development (TCG the game) -> Contracted company product production -> Contracted company product advertising -> Contracted company product retail sale, a share to the rightful owner, Blizzard -> Contracted company shipping -> Retail product advertisement -> Credit card -> Product booster packs, battle packs or single packs crossing the counter or shipped -> Gambling for the right cards (and the sweet loot) -> TCG Tradeable Loot Card -> Sell for gold -> Gain an advantage over a player either with an item of interest or gold, indirect P2W (but way too many steps).

it's a false equivalency, I told this before I explained why you just keep rambling.