Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[shoc]

WoW was better when second and third world prison slaves were forced to farm gold and when my purchase enriched corrupt politicians and gangsters.

[Raelbo]

lol intelligent people.

lol well-reasoned argument

Says someone who has shown no evidence of even being able to construct a proper argument. Rich.

Honestly, the amount of arrogance and smugness in the post you made that I responded to is astounding.

Literally everything associated with gold? So everything?

Saying that something has been devalued infers that it had value in the first place. No one here has denied that tokens give anyone access to a modest amount of easy gold. But what you're failing to understand is the fact that the amount of gold you can acquire via token is not difficult to acquire in-game. This is guaranteed by the mechanism by which token sellers get that gold, namely from someone who did acquire it in-game. Someone who is happy enough to part with it for a mere $13 of currency that only has use on the Blizzard shop.

Timmy just got his new stimulus check. Timmy buys 600k gold with the wow token. Timmy then takes that 600k and buys KSM. Timmy would not have gotten KSM without paying for a carry.

Johnny makes 500k of gold consistently every month with little to no real effort beyond just playing the game the way he enjoys it. Johnny then takes 600K of that each season and buys KSM in exactly the same way as Timmy.

Harry puts in a moderate amount of effort and achieves KSM the intended way.

How is that not directly p2w?

1) Neither Johnny nor Harry had to do anything special in order to achieve the outcome that Timmy "achieved".
2) Timmy's "achievement" was not acquired by virtue of any advantage given to him by the game. He was carried by other players. This is perfectly normal attribute of an MMO game.

[Relapses]

Timmy just got his new stimulus check. Timmy buys 600k gold with the wow token. Timmy then takes that 600k and buys KSM. Timmy would not have gotten KSM without paying for a carry.

How is that not directly p2w?

KSM doesn't cost 600k. The going rate is 200k per instance and you need about 12-14 instances to get the rating needed for it, so you're really talking about something which costs 2-3 million gold. The part you left out of that analogy is that Timmy would be waiting more than a week for all the tokens he'd need to buy that boost, assuming he doesn't sleep and buys a token every 4 hours (on the hour). This option is also way more expensive than using a boosting community which wouldn't require him to wait for tokens to clear. (Boosting communities that existed before the token and will certainly still exist even if the token is removed.) Timmy, in your analogy, is a fucking moron; and moreover, if you think boosting is P2W then you would have to admit the game has always been P2W. But admitting that would mean that your position of "WoW token BAD" is severely neutered since your actual complaint doesn't have anything to do with the token or P2W and is instead a very vague condemnation of good 'ol fashioned capitalism.

[Raelbo]

KSM doesn't cost 600k. The going rate is 200k per instance and you need about 12-14 instances to get the rating needed for it, so you're really talking about something which costs 2-3 million gold. The part you left out of that analogy is that Timmy would be waiting more than a week for all the tokens he'd need to buy that boost, assuming he doesn't sleep and buys a token every 4 hours (on the hour). This option is also way more expensive than using a boosting community which wouldn't require him to wait for tokens to clear. (Boosting communities that existed before the token and will certainly still exist even if the token is removed.) Timmy, in your analogy, is a fucking moron; and moreover, if you think boosting is P2W then you would have to admit the game has always been P2W. But admitting that would mean that your position of "WoW token BAD" is severely neutered since your actual complaint doesn't have anything to do with the token or P2W and is instead a very vague condemnation of good 'ol fashioned capitalism.

Loving this post

[Raelbo]

yall are hopeless lol. No wonder the game is in the state it's in

Again, says the person who can't be bothered (or lacks the ability) to construct an argument to substantiate his assertions

[Relapses]

yall are hopeless lol. No wonder the game is in the state it's in

Please, enlighten us. If you have a problem with P2W how would you fix it?

[rhorle]

That wasn't your question? Did you confuse yourself or is it sheer habit to move goal posts?

What feature, that makes a mmorpg a mmorpg, is devalued by the token existing?

The only confusion here is from you. It was my question and does not move the goal posts one bit.

[rhorle]

You:"What feature is devalued by gold?" Me: "this feature" You: "lol since when is gold a feature?"

You are ignoring the key part of the my response. "that makes a mmorpg a mmorpg". How is gold a defining feature of an MMO?

Even if we just assume it wasn't about defining features how has gold been devalued by the token being included? The value of gold still follows the same basic in-game pattern it has for 16 years. New stuff more expensive and it drops in price as time goes to reach a stability point. The token usually increases as time goes on. If anything it increases the purchase power of gold. As the token rises the price of goods usually go down.

[Relapses]

Don't want to fix it. It is what it is.

Then why do you have such a problem with people correctly pointing out that the game isn't actually P2W?

[DechCJC]

This thread is giving me a headache; I don't think it's possible for either side to budge. Has anyone in the last 156 pages actually conceded and said "Actually, you know what? You're right"?

I just... Don't see P2W in the same way that other people do here. I consider a level 50 boost P2W because it's an advantage over a lower level player (they have to put in less time + they can now kill them if they so desire with ease), others don't agree with this statement because it's achievable in-game. But with this logic we're then opening up the possibility of putting even gear on to the store as it's 'achievable in-game'. What if instead of gear, they put gear 'loot boxes' with a limited amount of chances per week, the equivalent amount of chances that you would get from a raid? Would that be P2W?

To me, any kind of advantage, regardless of if it's achievable in-game is P2W - If you go buy the textbook definition, then everything in the game could be put on to the store.

If EVERY item in the game currently achievable was put on the store with gear being in a lootbox on a cooldown, would that be P2W? The textbook definition says no, yet many here would surely say that it is, even if they don't think it of the current iteration.

I'd even go as far as to say, as I've discussed earlier, that the game has always been P2W, but if you want to go down that road, then what isn't? Everything on this planet is P2W if you stretch the definition enough, but when the company actively provides you the means to win with no risk on your behalf, that's where people have an issue. Even if they don't have an issue, it's just easier to associate the term with it at this point.

[Relapses]

This thread is giving me a headache; I don't think it's possible for either side to budge. Has anyone in the last 156 pages actually conceded and said "Actually, you know what? You're right"?

I just... Don't see P2W in the same way that other people do here. I consider a level 50 boost P2W because it's an advantage over a lower level player (they have to put in less time + they can now kill them if they so desire with ease), others don't agree with this statement because it's achievable in-game. But with this logic we're then opening up the possibility of putting even gear on to the store as it's 'achievable in-game'. What if instead of gear, they put gear 'loot boxes' with a limited amount of chances per week, the equivalent amount of chances that you would get from a raid? Would that be P2W?

To me, any kind of advantage, regardless of if it's achievable in-game is P2W - If you go buy the textbook definition, then everything in the game could be put on to the store.

If EVERY item in the game currently achievable was put on the store with gear being in a lootbox on a cooldown, would that be P2W? The textbook definition says no, yet many here would surely say that it is, even if they don't think it of the current iteration.

I'd even go as far as to say, as I've discussed earlier, that the game has always been P2W, but if you want to go down that road, then what isn't? Everything on this planet is P2W if you stretch the definition enough, but when the company actively provides you the means to win with no risk on your behalf, that's where people have an issue.

This isn't a new revelation -- it's exactly why I think that this should be added to the list of forbidden topics on this forum. As an example, I was arguing the semantics of the "W" part of P2W with @rhorle for almost a dozen pages in this very thread (even though we mostly agree otherwise). Personally, I really don't care if you think the game is P2W on an individual level. It's when people use that position to criticize the game ("greedy Blizzard") that I get a little annoyed.

[DechCJC]

This isn't a new revelation -- it's exactly why I think that this should be added to the list of forbidden topics on this forum. As an example, I was arguing the semantics of the "W" part of P2W with @rhorle for almost a dozen pages in this very thread (even though we mostly agree otherwise). Personally, I really don't care if you think the game is P2W on an individual level. It's when people use that position to criticize the game ("greedy Blizzard") that I get a little annoyed.

That's fair enough, I don't personally enjoy the involvement of the store but it doesn't particularly sway my view of the game, nor do I blame Blizzard for incorporating it.

[Lochton]

Watching through all this, I guess by the discussion, all MMORPGs are Pay2Win.

[Deadite]

I'd even go as far as to say, as I've discussed earlier, that the game has always been P2W, but if you want to go down that road, then what isn't? Everything on this planet is P2W if you stretch the definition enough, but when the company actively provides you the means to win with no risk on your behalf, that's where people have an issue. Even if they don't have an issue, it's just easier to associate the term with it at this point.

The thing is as soon as blizzard started selling gold via the token then Joe Bloggs who would never risk his account buying gold from some dodgey Chinese gold farmer now could buy all the gold they want in a total legal and safe manner. Sure you always could buy dodggey gold but i doubt your average player would have taken that risk. Now as we see boosting for gold is now off the chart. Few tokens and you got your self a heroic carry. On my realm i am told by a friend who is still playing it is about 500k. No clue if that is the going rate or not. So since most people don't raid then you are buying power that most people may not have. I consider that pay2win but i can understand that some people may not. That is why no one will ever agree. I personally don't care if they straight up sell Mythic gear/mount/titles in the cash shop.

[Tic Tacs]

Please, enlighten us. If you have a problem with P2W how would you fix it?

maybe remove legal P2W aka wow token and start enforcing illegal P2W aka websites, discord servers and so on that sell various services?

[david0925]

Serious question for @Raelbo

would you consider it pay to win if blizzard puts up gear, that you can aquire through playing the game normally, for gold?

[Relapses]

maybe remove legal P2W aka wow token and start enforcing illegal P2W aka websites, discord servers and so on that sell various services?

Great idea. Should we solve world hunger while we're at it?

[rrayy]

Sounds like P2W with extra steps to me.

It;'s not. You still have to physically complete the hardest content. Therefore
it is not p2w.

[Relapses]

Does logic not exist in this thread? Why do you people keep changing your story and/or put words in my mouth? Stop being offended at me calling a spade a spade. All I see is people using an extreme amount of copium and in denial. You place the bar so high (purposefully) to make something P2W that no game might qualify under your wrong definition.

I'm not offended. You're the one going through Olympic level mental gymnastics so you can accuse other people of Copium/denial for having an opinion which doesn't perfectly align with your own.

[Lochton]

maybe remove legal P2W aka wow token and start enforcing illegal P2W aka websites, discord servers and so on that sell various services?

Sounds great but if that token goes, then third-party sites are going to skyrocket again. Blizzard can't do anything out of the game, and they have a long list of methods they use in-game to avoid things happening. They, of course, could work harder on chasing gold sellers but it'll be even more work than handling LFG boosting advertisement, or even bots.