New Garrosh cinematic

[agentsi]

tell then, why he was "badly written" with subjective arguments, and please, put here what is an good written cahracter.

Or you are going to spin that and try to say i should be the one to prove he is well written despite you being the one to make the claim first?


then why did you bring that up when i said the reasons why people dislike him?


nope, he succeed fairly until mop, that is clearly different

or do you call theramore dizimation a failure?


it clearly didn't work as good since he survived, should have used "fel poison"


And yet, he didn't, how strange isn't


We will never know cause he ask help from the alliance instead of his own faction



That is how you show to know little, about the horde, Garrosh and the war it had back then, since they only "turn against him" by the end of mop, and everything i said happened in cataclysm and the people was satisfied with it.

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Exactly, theramore was an fully armored city that provided help for other alliance bases, it was the bastion of power in Kalindor, by their ports Alliance launched countless attacks upon the horde.

Theramore was not a civilians only city, like teldrassil was.


that ain't simple, by definition military targets are: Armed forces, - Military installations, positions, - Objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use contribute to military action. Theramore was, teldrasil was a city with only civilians already at horde mercy who didn' fit in those criteria.

Teldrassil wasn't civilian only. It is extremely well guarded, as well as being a port city used in military. Tyrande, Maulfurion, etc, all called it home mostly too. How cans some of the mightiest warriors WoW has ever known live there, and defend that home, but it not be considered a military target of interest?

How? Because this is a situation of having a narrative. Anyone who says Teldrassil had no military interest is purely biased and isn't objectively looking at the situation.

[Ielenia]

so, again, why you brought that up if have no relation with what i said? or are you again, confirming you attempt a red hearing?

Because it's one thing that can be held against him, which I do? Also, I never said "it has no relation to what you said", I simply said that what you wrote in your post is not what you claim you did.

Or because it make sense, as taurens should be dealt with taurens since he was focused on the war? but of course, use your ignorance to call "badly written"

Because the warchief being tricked and used as an accessory to an assassination is not a matter the warchief should concern himself. Right.

why it show to be dubious if everyone and their mothers knew she did without his knowledge and consent? lol

"Eager to avenge his father and reclaim Thunder Bluff, Baine asks his father's old friend and adviser on how to fight Magatha. Hamuul informs the young chieftain that their potential allies are few, with Garrosh's allegiances unclear,"

Yeah, taking Sylvanus words as value, as we know everything she said is true

Just so you know: you just adopted the burden of proof to show that Sylvanas lied when she said that.

Everything you said later is on MOP, not before.

Except you said, and I quote:

That is how you show to know little, about the horde, Garrosh and the war it had back then, since they only "turn against him" by the end of mop

By the end of MOP.

and nothing you said even slightly support your claim of overwhelming majority of the Horde turned against him., so, again, wrong.

For someone who mentioned MoP so many times, you seem to have missed the fact that the tauren, the blood elves, the forsaken, and the tauren all rebelled against Garrosh in MoP. 4 out of 6? I would say "overwhelming majority" applies.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Teldrassil wasn't civilian only. It is extremely well guarded, as well as being a port city used in military. Tyrande, Maulfurion, etc, all called it home mostly too. How cans some of the mightiest warriors WoW has ever known live there, and defend that home, but it not be considered a military target of interest?

How? Because this is a situation of having a narrative. Anyone who says Teldrassil had no military interest is purely biased and isn't objectively looking at the situation.

The night elf military had sailed off with next to no defenders left to guard teldrssil, it was a comply civilian target at the time of its capture that was literally the whole plan to hold it hostage while it was only civ's.

[Feanoro]

alliance opinion on horde leadership does not matter, just like the other way around.

This may be hard, but I'll put it simply. You are not an orc. You are not a member of the Horde. I am not a member of the Alliance. We are both in the real world, commenting on a video game story. There is no "opinion doesn't matter" here, unless this is your personal forum.

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Garrosh was a blind delusional child who could never accept what was in front of him, the Horde he knew abandoned him because he was sick. He loved a fictional Horde that never existed. In WOD he finally got to live with Grom and was a hero to the Orcs yet he choose revenge. He has died twice being controlled by anger and ego.

Really says something about the "gReAteSt wArcHeiF" claims doesn't it?

[agentsi]

The night elf military had sailed off with next to no defenders left to guard teldrssil, it was a comply civilian target at the time of its capture that was literally the whole plan to hold it hostage while it was only civ's.

What kind of bullshit is that? Oh, the military left, so now it isn't a military area? I guess we aren't allowed to attack it.

Are you fucking dense?

The bullshit people make up in their heads to justify their point of view when it isn't logical is fucking astounding.

Infracted.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What kind of bullshit is that? Oh, the military left, so now it isn't a military area? I guess we aren't allowed to attack it.

Are you fucking dense?

The bullshit people make up in their heads to justify their point of view when it isn't logical is fucking astounding.

when the military leaves a area with only civilians behind it is no longer a military target, attacking a town with a stationed force is ok, attacking a town with abunch of civ's and no practical military target is not.

[docterfreeze]

That list earlier in the thread doesn't even cover the badass shit he did in books and short stories. Like almost killing multiple warsong orcs at once with his hands tied, or taking no damage from a point blank explosion. Coolest character in WoW. When him and varian were the faction leaders, faction pride was at an all-time high. Nobody cares about fighting FOR THE HORDE or FOR THE ALLIANCE when you have this peace council and anduin.

[enigma77]

The Warchief we deserved.

[username993720]

That list earlier in the thread doesn't even cover the badass shit he did in books and short stories. Like almost killing multiple warsong orcs at once with his hands tied, or taking no damage from a point blank explosion.

So, why don't you add them here?

Coolest character in WoW. When him and varian were the faction leaders, faction pride was at an all-time high. Nobody cares about fighting FOR THE HORDE or FOR THE ALLIANCE when you have this peace council and anduin.

Precisely!
Varian was his Alliance counterpart, sort of. He was quick to anger and acted when threatened. I really liked his persona in the Ulduar patch trailer and in the Siege of Orgrimmar finale, where he clashes with Garrosh or threatens to dismantle the Horde.
Now all we have are those peace-loving, compassionate characters like Anduin, Jaina, Thrall and Calia. And that is grave news for the storyline of the game.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Garrosh was a blind delusional child who could never accept what was in front of him, the Horde he knew abandoned him because he was sick. He loved a fictional Horde that never existed. In WOD he finally got to live with Grom and was a hero to the Orcs yet he choose revenge. He has died twice being controlled by anger and ego.

Yep Garrosh's vision of the Horde was an idealised vision of the Old Horde, a strong, glorious and honorable (though in his twisted vision of honor) orcish-centric machine of war and conquest, nevermind that this Horde was corrupt to the bone and never glorious or honorable in the first place even without Gul'dan, Fel magic and demon blood and forsook the ideals and culture that Orcs had such as the worship of ancients, spirits and elements as well as slaughtering people who had never wronged or wanted to attack the Orcs just for the sake of it.

It's telling that Garrosh never had that much respect for elders, outside of Geyah, or for the elements given how little difficult it was for him to adopt dark shamanism and have the elements enslaved or tortured, as well as his inability to understand why Saurfang would feel regret for having massacred innocent Draenei children and civilians and the fact that he convinced Grommash to attack them despite knowing that they weren't a threat to his people on AU Draenor.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The Warchief we deserved.

If we only knew back then how bad it would eventually get...

[Al Gorefiend]

Funny, the moment they brought him back he actually noped out for real. So far the smartest character decision anyone has made in this addon.

He misses WoD

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when the military leaves a area with only civilians behind it is no longer a military target, attacking a town with a stationed force is ok, attacking a town with abunch of civ's and no practical military target is not.

Killing civilians is a demoralization tactic.

Also what innocent civilians are making their homes in a military base? If someone is a chef, they are feeding troops, therefore a military target.

[Syegfryed]

Because it's one thing that can be held against him, which I do? Also, I never said "it has no relation to what you said", I simply said that what you wrote in your post is not what you claim you did.

So, again, what you brought that up in the part where i say reasons people dislike him? youa re jsut confirming attempt red hearing.

Because the warchief being tricked and used as an accessory to an assassination is not a matter the warchief should concern himself. Right.

He already did, you are complaining he did not send a force to straight up murder her? when Baine himself didn't? lol

"Eager to avenge his father and reclaim Thunder Bluff, Baine asks his father's old friend and adviser on how to fight Magatha. Hamuul informs the young chieftain that their potential allies are few, with Garrosh's allegiances unclear,"

And why it would be unclear? theya re literally making up that by fear, still thinking he had something to do with the poisoning, alas, the same mistake Cairne did by thinking the twilight hammer incident was Garrosh fault

Except you said, and I quote:

By the end of MOP.

And still is right, because it is only at the end of mop that majorly of the horde ent against him?

For someone who mentioned MoP so many times, you seem to have missed the fact that the tauren, the blood elves, the forsaken, and the tauren all rebelled against Garrosh in MoP. 4 out of 6? I would say "overwhelming majority" applies.

you are rly trying to spin things aren't you?

everything that yous aid here happened at the end of MOP. prior to that, not overwhelming majority of the Horde turned against him., which you said it was, so, wrong.

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This may be hard, but I'll put it simply. You are not an orc. You are not a member of the Horde. I am not a member of the Alliance. We are both in the real world, commenting on a video game story. There is no "opinion doesn't matter" here, unless this is your personal forum.

ok.. and? we are still horde and alliance players and we will be biased to our factions, some people, like you, can't be impartial, so yeah that will not matter.

Jus like alliance players love Baine and wanted him to lead the horde, but they just want that because Baine is a garbage character lapdog of the alliance

[Feanoro]

ok.. and? we are still horde and alliance players and we will be biased to our factions, some people, like you, can't be impartial, so yeah that will not matter.

It means no one's opinion is invalid. I obviously disagree with your opinion, but will fully defend your right to it. Also, please don't act like you're somehow unbiased (particularly now as you're arguing against established canon that the Horde majority turned on Garrosh). That would be an absurd statement.

Jus like alliance players love Baine and wanted him to lead the horde, but they just want that because Baine is a garbage character lapdog of the alliance

What was that about being impartial? If anything, Alliance players like Baine because he's the only leader not suggesting to burn down more of their cities and humiliate them yet again.

I always love how "Character X doesn't want to murder every last man, woman, and child of the Alliance and feed their souls to Satan, burn their cities, and salt the ground" somehow equals "Alliance lapdog/puppet!"

[Ardenaso]

Sylvanas did human/undead/vykrl testing with the blight and then blighted a Nation full of civ's even before Bfa she's always been worse then garrosh.

didn't happen; no confirmation it was a non-combatant in the book/novel, could've been a scarlet crusader or an alliance soldier

[Raisei]

thats just not true, at all, you are outright presenting a lie as true here. You are saying "orcs could not live in a society based on mindleslly wagging war" that thral wanted, and thats why didn't work.

Uhm no, that is precisely the opposite of what I am saying. You might want to reread what I wrote. And every piece of history we have of them is evidence I am right. They waged war against every other race of Draenor, against each other, then they came to Azeroth and waged war there again and again. Orcish culture is based and cannot exist with out constant strife. The best evidence is that their big boss is called WARchief and gets that job by being the biggest and meanest of the bunch.

Thrall made orcs live in famine and poverty in a desert without resources, Thrall accepted every Alliance demand, despite the alliance attacking then and invading their territory. They had to sustain themselves with other races help and by alliance sanctions.

Considering they were escaped fugitives and mass murderers at that, the fact that they were allowed to live in freedom AT ALL was an immense accomplishment of diplomacy by Thrall. If Grommash had been the boss the Orcs would have gone straight back to join the Legion and would have been wiped out later.

This is the problem with people who didn't read the short stories, they get no context and just say nonsenses since blizzard outright ignored the cataclysm plots, but Garrosh shortstory is canon and show why Garry did what he did.

See the thing is. It doesn't matter WHY he did what he did. Just like it is completely unimportant why Sylvanas burned down the tree. Crimes like these are inexcusable, no matter what the reasoning behind them is. People with noble goals find better ways.

Slaughter everyone who didn't immediately submit? bullshit, the alliance was waging war upon the horde by Varian orders, night elves stop their trade and start attacking, dwarves in the barrens were digging deep in tauren territory and killing then all of that while the orcs were living in famine, he had to act

Alliance brought everything to themselves.

First of all: The Alliance doesn't owe the Horde anything. That the Nelfs were sharing Kalimdor with them is already a lot and the direct result of Thrall's honorable actions. They didn't have to trade with the Horde, but they graciously did as long as they were good neighbours. When the Horde caused the Wrathgate incident that changed. It was up to the Horde to mend this situation, since they caused it. That is absolutely no excuse to just go and attack the Elves.

thrall was an aberration because he favour the enemy before his own people seeking an utopia, Garrosh was the perfect example of how the orcs should not endure alliance bullshit no more.

Bullshit, but it's not like this is my first time reading your posts, so my surprise is limited.

Thrall freed his people from captivity and wanted them to build a civilisation without the constant and pointless need for violence. Garrosh just wanted glory for himself to aspire to his dad, because Thrall stupidly portrayed Grommash as a hero. Which is pretty evident when you consider that he discarded most of the Horde, including most Orcs, except those that were 100% loyal to him and only him, i.e. the Korkron and Dragon Maw. He didn't care about the Orcs at all, he cared about power and only power.

[Varodoc]

didn't happen; no confirmation it was a non-combatant in the book/novel, could've been a scarlet crusader or an alliance soldier

So that justifies chemical experimentation on a human being? Lol?

[Syegfryed]

It means no one's opinion is invalid. I obviously disagree with your opinion, but will fully defend your right to it. .

Im not saying you have no right to an opinion, or can't say it, im saying the opinion is invalid because the person now nothing about it or just is completely biased towards it, is like wanting to talk with property about conflicts in another country that you have zero context about it, how do you know what is better for that people/population if you one, ar not part of it, and two, have zero clues about it?

Also, please don't act like you're somehow unbiased (particularly now as you're arguing against established canon that the Horde majority turned on Garrosh). That would be an absurd statement

So, again, that is an strawman fallacy, thats why it is absurd statement, because is something maded up. im not arguing that majority of the horde turned against Garrosh, im arguing when did that happen, and that happen by middle/end of mop, not before

so saying "majority of the horde left him" while we talk about cataclysm events is the true asinine statement.

What was that about being impartial? If anything, Alliance players like Baine because he's the only leader not suggesting to burn down more of their cities and humiliate them yet again.

ah yes, for sure, that is the reason, not because he is a horde traitor and someone who have more loyalty to the alliance than his own faction, not at all

so again, point stand, you like him because he is more of an alliance player than horde, horde players would not want Baine as leader

quote]
I always love how "Character X doesn't want to murder every last man, woman, and child of the Alliance and feed their souls to Satan, burn their cities, and salt the ground" somehow equals "Alliance lapdog/puppet!" [/QUOTE]

I always love when you have to resort in absolutism like this, cause it is either "peace loving traitor Baine" or a genocide, only two options and nothing in between or otuside those, you put yourself in the same corner you want put others

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Uhm no, that is precisely the opposite of what I am saying. You might want to reread what I wrote. And every piece of history we have of them is evidence I am right.

no again, every evidence say you are not just blatantly wrong but also making events up.

They waged war against every other race of Draenor, against each other,

That is again, only because they were corrupted by the legion, as before, they lived epacefully with every race who didn't tried to enslave then.

So, you are making stuff up by ignoring key pieces to the events before.

Orcish culture is based and cannot exist with out constant strife.

It is not, because the orcs, since their creation from ogres, lived fine without "constant strife" and only attacked the races who attack then, like ogres who tried to enslave then.

The best evidence is that their big boss is called WARchief and gets that job by being the biggest and meanest of the bunch.

that is also untrue, since you are wanting to make those things related to prove something else differently, "their big boss" is called that because the big boss was created for the war, the clans leaders were chieftain like any other tribe/clan.

Considering they were escaped fugitives and mass murderers at that, the fact that they were allowed to live in freedom AT ALL was an immense accomplishment of diplomacy by Thrall. If Grommash had been the boss the Orcs would have gone straight back to join the Legion and would have been wiped out later.

haha what a bullshit statement, thats why i can't take your alliance players serious.

"it is all right to live in poverty and famine WHILE BEING ATTACKED, because we, the alliance, allow that to happen in generosity, thats why Garrosh was so popular.

See the thing is. It doesn't matter WHY he did what he did. Just like it is completely unimportant why Sylvanas burned down the tree. Crimes like these are inexcusable, no matter what the reasoning behind them is. People with noble goals find better ways.

of course it matters, it give context that you are, on purpose, ignoring to fit your headcanon.

Alliance waged war on the horde, horde fought back, "crime" my ass

First of all: The Alliance doesn't owe the Horde anything.

The night elves did, as the horde help then out in hyjal, and, no one is saying the rest of the alliance should do anything other than living then alone

That the Nelfs were sharing Kalimdor with them is already a lot and the direct result of Thrall's honorable actions.

Kalindor does not belong to the night elves for then to let the horde take anything

They didn't have to trade with the Horde, but they graciously did as long as they were good neighbours. When the Horde caused the Wrathgate incident that changed. It was up to the Horde to mend this situation, since they caused it. That is absolutely no excuse to just go and attack the Elves.

graciously did my ass, they begrundly did for a while and imediately attacked back, they don't have to, but there is no reason to not help then out since the orcs helped then in hyjal, they attacked in vanilla and attacked again in wtlk using wrathgate as excuse, why the orcs had to pay with famine and death because a rogue faction of the forsaken? can we blame the night elves for azshara and others too or the hypocrisi is just too much?

It was up to horde? come on, your bias is showing too much.

Bullshit, but it's not like this is my first time reading your posts, so my surprise is limited.

the only bullshit is the alliance thinking they would get away by attacking the horde left and right, declaring open war and not getting hit back at some point.

Thrall freed his people from captivity and wanted them to build a civilisation without the constant and pointless need for violence.

And in doing so, he made his people live in poverty and famine, dependent of an enemy organization who left and right attack then with the goal of extermination.

[Feanoro]

Im not saying you have no right to an opinion, or can't say it, im saying the opinion is invalid because the person now nothing about it or just is completely biased towards it, is like wanting to talk with property about conflicts in another country that you have zero context about it, how do you know what is better for that people/population if you one, ar not part of it, and two, have zero clues about it?

Taken to its logical end, that would mean a person cannot have an opinion about anything he hasn't personally been part of or experienced. That's nonsense. I've never had a big cup of gasoline, but I know I would not like it.

On the Horde turning against Garrosh, I'll admit to skimming there and misunderstood you arguing that the majority didn't. Apologies then.

ah yes, for sure, that is the reason, not because he is a horde traitor and someone who have more loyalty to the alliance than his own faction, not at all

In your opinion, because Blizzard has made no such statement.

so again, point stand, you like him because he is more of an alliance player than horde, horde players would not want Baine as leader

He is very poorly presented and suffers the most from cut content, but his stance is "We shouldn't go to war just to go to war. We shouldn't throw away lives pointlessly." Also, I fondly recall Horde players rhapsodizing how Hippy Jaina was the best written character in Warcraft when she was all for appeasing the Horde and forgetting their atrocities. Goodness, I'm starting to think the Horde fans expect a one way street! If so, that's incredibly selfish.

I always love when you have to resort in absolutism like this, cause it is either "peace loving traitor Baine" or a genocide, only two options and nothing in between or otuside those, you put yourself in the same corner you want put others

That's how you (and others) present the situation. You have NEVER presented any middle ground between peace and genocide. That's not your stance? Then it's on you to make yourself clear.

[Daronokk]

Garrosh did nothing wrong. He's the embodiment of what it means to be Horde.

Ever since Blizzard came up with the retarded decision to make him a villain they simlutaneously threw the Horde faction under the bus. This is the reason why the faction is dead now, a hollow shell of its former self, a copy of the Alliance. The Horde is a joke now and the franchise might as well die with it. Blizzard destroyed the corner stone of "Orcs vs Humans" when they decided to kill off Garrosh.