FFXIV Spoiler thread

[Xilurm]

I didn't see anything, the game had to outright say that was the case. I'd be interested to know if they felt they had to make it clear in HW because too many people were misinterpreting the relationship.

But it did. I mentioned that a page or two back.

Here, I'll even link a video.

[Lane]

But it did. I mentioned that a page or two back.

This is exactly what I'm talking about and why I mentioned it in my original response. Thancred doesn't present as being a father/brother/guardian, you have to be told specifically during this cutscene that's not how it is because it hasn't been shown that way up to that point. The fact that even Krile seems to believe Minfilia, her BFF, is his "beloved" I'd argue lends credence to it being a common misconception.

Anyway, arguing interpretations is pointless, which I clearly failed to demonstrate with my Aymeric comparison. I only replied to Drindorai because he was trying to call Val out for a take that wasn't exclusive to him.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Maybe I'm wrong, but Dalamud is still inside that "red moon" in the sky?. I remember that Louisoix Leveilleur last spell was to imprision Dalamud. And that Dalamud is still in the skies of the world, sleeping.... I remember Papalymo and Yda looking at the sky in Gridania forest and observed the "red moon" on the sky.

And that Zenos ultimate goal on the last part of Shadowbringers is to use him as he used Shinryu to empower himself. Is that right? Because maybe I'm wrong, that is why I'm asking...

There were only two moons. The moon we all know, and Dalamud. Dalamud exploded at the end of 1.0. In the game you can actually play right now, there is only the regular moon.

[Sangris]

I really wish that they made Crystal Tower mandatory at the start of ShB instead of one of the post 5.0 patches. I started playing in late Stormblood and almost exclusively did MSQ for a long time. I had no idea who G'raha was until after his reveal and that he was actually in the game since ARR in a (by then) optional quest line. I'm still bummed about not having had this connection that all those new players now have.

[Xilurm]

Maybe I'm wrong, but Dalamud is still inside that "red moon" in the sky?. I remember that Louisoix Leveilleur last spell was to imprision Dalamud. And that Dalamud is still in the skies of the world, sleeping.... I remember Papalymo and Yda looking at the sky in Gridania forest and observed the "red moon" on the sky.

And that Zenos ultimate goal on the last part of Shadowbringers is to use him as he used Shinryu to empower himself. Is that right? Because maybe I'm wrong, that is why I'm asking...

Bahamut was inside Dalamud. Dalamud was the red "moon" which served as Bahamut's prison. Both are long gone like the other posters said. That was the reason for the 7th Umbral Calamity. You should reward the ARR cinematic again. Louisoix tried to imprison Bahamut again but failed and was forced to sacrifice himself in order to defeat him. That story is continued in the Binding Coils of Bahamut raid. You can do that unsynced very easily.

Zenos wants to do the same thing he did with Shinryu, to Zodiark. That's what Fandaniel told him he would help him achieve.

PS: The reason you see the moon being red at the end of the 5.55 quest is just for dramatic effect. There isn't any reason behind it.

[Katchii]

Also, the mysterious source of power for Zenos isn't Zodiark? By the way it looks, Emet-Selch toyed with him in order to turn him into an Avatar of Zodiark himself. Why would Zenos be so powerful anyways?

The actual source of power for Zenos hasn't been 100% explored yet, though it's heavily implied. It's not Zodiark though. But Emet-Selch and Elidibus may have been grooming him to be Zodiarks avatar, but that hasn't happened as Zodiark is still imprisoned and in pieces.

In Stormblood he was successfully given the Echo through the experiments done on Krile. But he apparently got a super powered version of it, or he was just extremely compatible with it, that put his power level on par with an Ascian, who as we know from the Shadowbringers story, are souls from the original unsundered Source who are fully capable of freely manipulating the entirety of their aether to transfer across bodies and also teleport at will. Given that the Echo his power is based on came from Krile, she should have similar abilities, but given that we ALSO have the Echo we could/should theoretically have the same abilities. Why his differ from ours has not yet been explored.

His martial prowess is essentially just because he's trained and strong and loves battle, it hasn't gone into much more depth than that. But his prowess coupled with his relatively newfound abilities brought by the Echo have made him even stronger.

[Xilurm]

Also, the mysterious source of power for Zenos isn't Zodiark? By the way it looks, Emet-Selch toyed with him in order to turn him into an Avatar of Zodiark himself. Why would Zenos be so powerful anyways?

We don't actually know why he is so powerful yet. It doesn't have anything to do with Zodiark though. Emet-Selch might have done something but we don't know what or when. Varis was also pretty strong, but Zenos was gifted from a young age. Couple that with him getting the Resonant in Stormblood, he became pretty powerful.

[Miriamel105]

The actual source of power for Zenos hasn't been 100% explored yet, though it's heavily implied. It's not Zodiark though. But Emet-Selch and Elidibus may have been grooming him to be Zodiarks avatar, but that hasn't happened as Zodiark is still imprisoned and in pieces.

In Stormblood he was successfully given the Echo through the experiments done on Krile. But he apparently got a super powered version of it, or he was just extremely compatible with it, that put his power level on par with an Ascian, who as we know from the Shadowbringers story, are souls from the original unsundered Source who are fully capable of freely manipulating the entirety of their aether to transfer across bodies and also teleport at will. Given that the Echo his power is based on came from Krile, she should have similar abilities, but given that we ALSO have the Echo we could/should theoretically have the same abilities. Why his differ from ours has not yet been explored.

His martial prowess is essentially just because he's trained and strong and loves battle, it hasn't gone into much more depth than that. But his prowess coupled with his relatively newfound abilities brought by the Echo have made him even stronger.

The echo is the echo, the only difference is, how much people even care to do with it. Of course the writing is extremely lazy and full of retcons, they probably haven't even though about what the echo is before ShB, just like they didn't thought about Solus having been/being controlled by an Ascian before that. They make up stuff as they please.

Regarding Zenos it's already more than clear, that Krile had not much to do with his power. He was powerful before and even more, he had dreams about Amaurot since earliest childhood. As bad as the writing is, it may be that there won't be ever an answer for it. Just take the WoL. Oh, has been an Ancient, one of the most powerful, but not even the WoL cares about that.

Somehow Zenos' death has pushed this even more, making him pretty much an Ascian, though those are also absolutely incoherent since start. Zenos will just be as powerful as they want him to be, just as the WoLs powerflevel is all over the place, from being defeated by some random Garlean criminal right before ShB up to: I can easily slaughter super god wizards for no reason.

That the WoL never ever even cares a single second about learning about the echo is by the way also just awful. The focus of absolute everything in the story cares as much about story, world and themself as Lunk from Cyanid and Happiness.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't actually know why he is so powerful yet. It doesn't have anything to do with Zodiark though. Emet-Selch might have done something but we don't know what or when. Varis was also pretty strong, but Zenos was gifted from a young age. Couple that with him getting the Resonant in Stormblood, he became pretty powerful.

The actual problem is, that the WoL isn't even strong. The WoL isn't Superman or anything like that. The reason the WoL wins is solely plot armor in 90% of cases. Sometimes you got something like the end of the HW arc, when a dragon empowers you. But most of the time, you are just some anime hero who 'finds some inner strenght' and suddenly can just beat anything, no matter what.

That's the only reason, why Zenos seems to be powerful, that the WoL's (and Scions) powerlevel are all over the place. Zenos hasn't even done much. Not that he even tries, as Godking of Bored Sitting.

It would be completely stupid, if he could take over Zodiark, a being that is an actual god, able to rewrite the physical laws of a whole planet to save it, twice. On the other side, whatever the genocide machine Hydaelyn has done might have left it is a mere husk - what would also be very anticlimatic.

The actual evil story of the game should the slaughtering of a whole planet and all life on it combined with the eternal torture of ripping it apart, reducing it to a pile of distorted fragments. But that's not the story they gonna tell. Whatever happens, even if Zenos would get planet altering god powers, the WoL will just easily win via a trial fight, as usual, likely with the Scions jumping around like Legolas and throw in some LB4 or 5 or 6, they suddenly are able to do - as usual. That's how Hades and Elidibus were beaten. No plan, not tactic, no strategy, just runnnig in and killing them in a simple trial fight. And Garlemald even just falls apart off screen, having done just nothing.

[Katchii]

[SPOILER] The echo is the echo, the only difference is, how much people even care to do with it.

Going to stop using spoiler tags because this whole thread is a spoiler thread.

It's actually explained a little bit that the Echo manifests somewhat differently for everyone. Not everyone with the Echo can see into the past like we do.

Of course the writing is extremely lazy and full of retcons, they probably haven't even though about what the echo is before ShB, just like they didn't thought about Solus having been/being controlled by an Ascian before that. They make up stuff as they please.

Full of them? Not going to deny there are at least a few, but full of them?

Also....yeah, that's what creators do, they make stuff up and make it fit into their overall narrative.

Regarding Zenos it's already more than clear, that Krile had not much to do with his power. He was powerful before and even more, he had dreams about Amaurot since earliest childhood.

His martial prowess yes, but it wasn't until he was given the Echo that he was able to do all the things we see now, like switching bodies and teleporting. Him having dreams of Amaurot since childhood, per the ShB story, means he's a reincarnated soul from there. Which would go a long way in explaining why him being given the Echo has made him so OP because he likely already had some power to begin with, and now it's been super charged.

As bad as the writing is, it may be that there won't be ever an answer for it. Just take the WoL. Oh, has been an Ancient, one of the most powerful, but not even the WoL cares about that.

The player character in any game only cares about what the game needs them to care about and do and explore. We also don't need to care about it, we just need to KNOW about it, which we do now.

Somehow Zenos' death has pushed this even more, making him pretty much an Ascian, though those are also absolutely incoherent since start.

His death "was only a setback!" because of his power of the Echo, because it apparently made him like an Ascian. The story beats are all there, covered in the MSQ. That's why he was able to switch bodies and now is able to see souls and manipulate aether, unlike any other Garleans.

Zenos will just be as powerful as they want him to be, just as the WoLs powerflevel is all over the place, from being defeated by some random Garlean criminal right before ShB up to: I can easily slaughter super god wizards for no reason.

That's just basic story telling inconsistencies, which are frustrating, but it's not abnormal or even MUCH of an inconsistency. We're not immortal or infallible and therefore can be killed and defeated. And we were able to defeat that super god wizard for a reason. You may not like or agree with that reason, but it's VERY clearly given why we're able to do so.

That the WoL never ever even cares a single second about learning about the echo is by the way also just awful.

I don't disagree, but this is hardly a huge plot hole given that the story is fed to us whether the WoL "cares" about anything or not.

The focus of absolute everything in the story cares as much about story, world and themself as Lunk from Cyanid and Happiness.

I honestly don't even know what message you're trying to convey with this statement.

The actual problem is, that the WoL isn't even strong.

The WoL has repeatedly defeated incredibly strong opponents. If the WoL isn't strong, what are they?

The WoL isn't Superman or anything like that. The reason the WoL wins is solely plot armor in 90% of cases.

Plot armor means we can't die, true, but that doesn't mean that from the narrative perspective that the WoL is not strong. The WoL is just made so strong that they can't lose

Sometimes you got something like the end of the HW arc, when a dragon empowers you. But most of the time, you are just some anime hero who 'finds some inner strenght' and suddenly can just beat anything, no matter what.

You not liking WHY they're strong, doesn't mean they're not strong though.

That's the only reason, why Zenos seems to be powerful, that the WoL's (and Scions) powerlevel are all over the place. Zenos hasn't even done much. Not that he even tries, as Godking of Bored Sitting.

Again regardless of whether you like how it's portrayed, both Zenos and the WoL are strong. It's shown outright several times that this is the case, and it's discussed heavily throughout each characters time in-game.

It would be completely stupid, if he could take over Zodiark, a being that is an actual god, able to rewrite the physical laws of a whole planet to save it, twice.

I agree.

On the other side, whatever the genocide machine Hydaelyn has done might have left it is a mere husk - what would also be very anticlimatic.

What?

The actual evil story of the game should the slaughtering of a whole planet and all life on it combined with the eternal torture of ripping it apart, reducing it to a pile of distorted fragments.

1) All life on the plane was not slaughtered when it was sundered.
2) The fragments aren't distorted, they were exact copies of the source when it happened, but they evolved and changed over time independently of each other.

But that's not the story they gonna tell.

You're right. Mainly because that's not what happened, but also because that's never how it works in narratives like this where you are in control of one of the "good guys."

Whatever happens, even if Zenos would get planet altering god powers, the WoL will just easily win via a trial fight, as usual, likely with the Scions jumping around like Legolas and throw in some LB4 or 5 or 6, they suddenly are able to do - as usual.

This just sounds like you're not paying attention. You say it's "easy" because it's a foregone conclusion that the WoL will win. But narratively, the journey to winning is not easy.

That's how Hades and Elidibus were beaten. No plan, not tactic, no strategy, just runnnig in and killing them in a simple trial fight.

That's kind of what fighters do, they run in and fight. The plan was to fight them and beat them using the power they held. It being simple doesn't mean it wasn't a plan. What are you asking for here?

And Garlemald even just falls apart off screen, having done just nothing.

This again sounds like you're not paying attention, because it's spelled out pretty clearly why Garlemald is imploding in the wake of Emperor Varis death. It sucks that we're not able to see it happening and that we're not part of it, but it happening at all is not a surprise.

[Xilurm]

The echo is the echo, the only difference is, how much people even care to do with it. Of course the writing is extremely lazy and full of retcons, they probably haven't even though about what the echo is before ShB, just like they didn't thought about Solus having been/being controlled by an Ascian before that. They make up stuff as they please.

So you want them to reveal that stuff from the get go? Retcon would be something that contradicts past evidence. There is no evidence. There was next to 0 information about Solus anyway, so why does it matter if he is revealed that he's an Ascian? That's not a retcon. Same with the echo, they just revealed what it is, that in itself doesn't contradict anything so it's not a retcon.

The actual problem is, that the WoL isn't even strong. The WoL isn't Superman or anything like that. The reason the WoL wins is solely plot armor in 90% of cases. Sometimes you got something like the end of the HW arc, when a dragon empowers you. But most of the time, you are just some anime hero who 'finds some inner strenght' and suddenly can just beat anything, no matter what.

Actually the WoL is strong, because of the Blessing of Light given to him by Hydaelyn.

It would be completely stupid, if he could take over Zodiark, a being that is an actual god, able to rewrite the physical laws of a whole planet to save it, twice. On the other side, whatever the genocide machine Hydaelyn has done might have left it is a mere husk - what would also be very anticlimatic.

Zodiark isn't an actual god, this was revealed in SHB. Emet-Selch himself said he was a primal. It just happens that he was created and summoned by way more powerful beings. If the Ancients were to summon Ifrit for example the difference in power compared to actual Ifrit we see ingame would be massive.

The actual evil story of the game should the slaughtering of a whole planet and all life on it combined with the eternal torture of ripping it apart, reducing it to a pile of distorted fragments. But that's not the story they gonna tell. Whatever happens, even if Zenos would get planet altering god powers, the WoL will just easily win via a trial fight, as usual, likely with the Scions jumping around like Legolas and throw in some LB4 or 5 or 6, they suddenly are able to do - as usual. That's how Hades and Elidibus were beaten. No plan, not tactic, no strategy, just runnnig in and killing them in a simple trial fight. And Garlemald even just falls apart off screen, having done just nothing.

So, murdering billions with each rejoining isn't evil to you? What happened during the sundering is the past, it happened. The point is to prevent the genocide of entire planets.

And no, that's not at all how Elidibus was defeated. Or did you forget about the plan the Exarch had which was to trap Elidibus in the Crystal Tower which itself acts as an auracite.

Sounds to me you just didn't pay attention.

[Lane]

Actually the WoL is strong, because of the Blessing of Light given to him by Hydaelyn.

I can't deny it was a 'get out of jail free' card against Ultima, but I feel like the BoL is given far too much credit for the WoL's power level. Even after Midgardsomr removed it, it didn't make a noticeable difference. It's also been frequently mistaken for Echo attributes and, more recently, we're not taking into account the WoL's revelation in ShB which I would think has more to do with it than a BoL we're rarely (ever?) shown to actively use. It seems like more of a defensive talent than anything.

The BoL being the source of the WoL's strength will be a problem in EW as well with what I suspect will be the end of Hydaelyn, but maybe that's the plan to have us return to being a regular adventurer.

[MrTharne]

So either there's so much that people were misinterpreting what was happening in ARR or so little that they clarified it in HW, which is it?

Thancred and Minfilia don't even really interact that much in ARR to begin with. And with the context of 1.0, since it was brought up, it's abundantly clear what his relationship with him is.

Sorry you and some others missed that I guess. The game is very clear that Thancred only sees Minfilia as a daughter or some other kind of family member.

I haven't even brought up the Alchemist questline yet. In it, you get more insight into F'hlammin and Thancred/Minfilia. And, once again, it's abundantly clear there's no romantic feelings there. So not even ARR is it vague. You just didn't see it and drew your own conclusions and then declared retcon when they made their relationship a more focal point of the MSQ.

I mean...At the end of his fight with Ranjit in ShB, the way his goodbye to Minfillia is framed/acted with the silent "I love you." kinda implies that he developped something more than friend/family feeling of love toward her. Switch Thancred with Alphinaud and Minfillia with Alisaie and the way it is framed/acted would make it feel really weird imo.

Right until that part it's pretty evident that it's not that kind of relationship but maybe in the end he realizes that he was feeling/developping something different toward her.

[shadowmatrix]

I really wish that they made Crystal Tower mandatory at the start of ShB instead of one of the post 5.0 patches. I started playing in late Stormblood and almost exclusively did MSQ for a long time. I had no idea who G'raha was until after his reveal and that he was actually in the game since ARR in a (by then) optional quest line. I'm still bummed about not having had this connection that all those new players now have.

It is required these days, it's a hidden part of the ARR MSQ along with the Garuda, Ifrit, and Titan hard.

[MrTharne]

So, murdering billions with each rejoining isn't evil to you? What happened during the sundering is the past, it happened. The point is to prevent the genocide of entire planets.

It kinda is, but so was what Hydaelyn/her summoners did. And if they consider themselves in a war against Hydaelyn, since they are nearly immortal, even if it happened in the past it doesn't matter, the war is still going on since Hydaelyn is still alive.

[Drindorai]

I mean...At the end of his fight with Ranjit in ShB, the way his goodbye to Minfillia is framed/acted with the silent "I love you." kinda implies that he developped something more than friend/family feeling of love toward her. Switch Thancred with Alphinaud and Minfillia with Alisaie and the way it is framed/acted would make it feel really weird imo.

Right until that part it's pretty evident that it's not that kind of relationship but maybe in the end he realizes that he was feeling/developping something different toward her.

Do you not tell your close family that you love them?

Also, if you swap them, no, it's not? It would still be exactly the same because he's never romantic toward her at any point.

I'm unsure how in his entire monologue you're referencing here you took that as him suddenly thinking he has fallen into romantic love with her. That's such a hard misread of that scene I don't even know where to begin. In that scene he's directly talking about her role in his life since he entered it and how proud of her he is, directly because he thinks he's about to die defending her honor from Ran'jit.

Hell, the line, "You think yourself her protector? Hah! As if a whelp like you could be a better FATHER to her than me!" is said IN that story beat by Ran'jit.

You REALLY think that they have this giant arc of Thancred coming to terms with Minfilia's death and agreeing to become a father to her reincarnation like he did her original self would ultimately be capped off with him just going, "Ah no I was in love with her all along!" ????????

Again, that's a super hard misread of that scene and his entire character honestly.

[MrTharne]

Do you not tell your close family that you love them?

Also, if you swap them, no, it's not? It would still be exactly the same because he's never romantic toward her at any point.

I'm unsure how in his entire monologue you're referencing here you took that as him suddenly thinking he has fallen into romantic love with her. That's such a hard misread of that scene I don't even know where to begin.

Because of the way it's acted/framed. The slow "Oooooh Minfillia..." with a silent "I love you.". If it's a family love you don't act/frame it like that with such a dramatic effect, especially with the silent "I love you".

[Drindorai]

Because of the way it's acted/framed. The slow "Oooooh Minfillia..." with a silent "I love you.". If it's a family love you don't act/frame it like that with such a dramatic effect, especially with the silent "I love you".

Why don't you? She's the only family that he's ever truly had outside of Louisoix, who is dead.

Very obviously what's been eating up at him, if you pay any attention at all to Thancred's storyline, is that he feels horrendously guilty for what he perceives as failing her. He talks about it post ARR, he talks about it in Heavensward, he talks about it MANY times in Shadowbringers. He never got to say goodbye.

There's only so many times I can say the same thing. People were literally just arguing that he WAS attracted to her until Heavensward where they then clarified it and not you're saying oh yeah that was the intention all along even in Shadowbringers? I don't know how many other ways I can say, "Yeah you misread every single thing about him just because he was known as a flirt in the past."

You decided a thing was true and are warping every single thing around that to support it, even when the game literally tells you multiple times that's not the case.

Also just another part of it that grosses me out is that by insisting this kind of thing was prevalent the entire time introduces a weird gross ass incest vibe to his entire role in Shadowbringers.

[MrTharne]

Why don't you? She's the only family that he's ever truly had outside of Louisoix, who is dead.

Very obviously what's been eating up at him, if you pay any attention at all to Thancred's storyline, is that he feels horrendously guilty for what he perceives as failing her. He talks about it post ARR, he talks about it in Heavensward, he talks about it MANY times in Shadowbringers. He never got to say goodbye.

There's only so many times I can say the same thing. People were literally just arguing that he WAS attracted to her until Heavensward where they then clarified it and not you're saying oh yeah that was the intention all along even in Shadowbringers? I don't know how many other ways I can say, "Yeah you misread every single thing about him just because he was known as a flirt in the past."

You decided a thing was true and are warping every single thing around that to support it, even when the game literally tells you multiple times that's not the case.

Also just another part of it that grosses me out is that by insisting this kind of thing was prevalent the entire time introduces a weird gross ass incest vibe to his entire role in Shadowbringers.

Never said it was the intention all along. I even said that up until that scene in Shadowbringers, his relationship is clearly family oriented toward Minfillia. Just that in the end he realizes it was more than that to him. And I don't wrap anything around it because nothing except this exact scene support that fact, that's why it's a realization, it doesn't change anything that came before nor the interpretation of them.

And I don't know how it could introduce a weird incest vibe with Minifillia with the way he treats her (i.e. Protective but also indifference, for good reasons) during the whole story until she becomes Ryne.

Cut the slow "Ooooh" and silent "I love you.", make him say "Minfillia, I love you." in one go and the scene changes completely and I would have never interpreted the way I did.

Edit : Not trying to change your mind btw, people interpret things in different ways. Like how some people see Amaurot and how the Ancients lived and go..."they deserved the Final Days, shit society." and I'm like "wut ? Did we play the same game ?"

[Lane]

Because of the way it's acted/framed.

There's a rule in writing called "show, don't tell". The problem with Thancred and Minfilia is the audience has to be told what their relationship is because it's not appropriately shown. I felt this was highlighted by his marked behavior change towards Ryne, who he does treat as more of a daughter. And, yes, ShB felt incredibly awkward because of it. You had a 15 y/o girl who Thancred spends most of 5.0 not wanting to choose her own life because he'll lose Minfilia and then when she does he behaves like he's mourning a lover. I didn't expect to like Ryne, but I felt so sorry for her. The only father figure she had in the Scions was Urianger up to that point.

Edit: I've found the writing whenever it concerns Minfilia to be bad. I'm left to assume she's someone's pet on the writing/dev team. She's ruined every character/interaction she's been involved in from my POV and I'm hoping we're finally done with her.

[Sangris]

It is required these days, it's a hidden part of the ARR MSQ along with the Garuda, Ifrit, and Titan hard.

I'm aware of that; I was bummed out that they didn't do that in 5.0, but one of the post- 5.0 patches (I think it was 5.3).