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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    untimed socre is abomination in first place - it shouldnt exist.
    Rewards participation... This whole thread is about leavers being the plague of M+, and we know that no "penalty" systems would actually be viable. So what does Blizzard? Adds incentives to finish the run. That "untimed score" is one. And on top of that they add something to prevent any abuse: going over 140 % of the timer won't award any score.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Naville View Post
    Rewards participation... This whole thread is about leavers being the plague of M+, and we know that no "penalty" systems would actually be viable. So what does Blizzard? Adds incentives to finish the run. That "untimed score" is one. And on top of that they add something to prevent any abuse: going over 140 % of the timer won't award any score.
    and people still leave. only ones staying are desperated who want untimed score. bumping score of people who dont deserve it and who later destroy other people keys - because they still underperform - and will continue to underperform - forcing others to leave instead carrying them .

    i bet you that there is much more keys destroyed by people who invite people with over-inflated score who dont perform forcing actually good players to leave then those imaginary "jerks" who "Destroy good groups keys"

    mate when im in actual good group nobody is leaving even if multiple small f...ups happe,

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    untimed socre is abomination in first place - it shouldnt exist.
    neither should m+ in its entirety but here we are, we only have it because blizz only cares about the esports scene now

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and people still leave. only ones staying are desperated who want untimed score. bumping score of people who dont deserve it and who later destroy other people keys - because they still underperform - and will continue to underperform - forcing others to leave instead carrying them .,
    thats not true at all if im still in those grps its for 1 of 2 reasons im after a item form that dungeon or im there for vault as i have all the score i want (2k on main, 1700 on alts) since i have the score i just mainly go for vault doesn't mean im a bad player, there's just no reason for desire for me to go higher, i only do m+ for vault if the key is finished if its in time that's bonus.

    when it comes to certain dungeons halls as an example ive had more depleted keys there due to tanks overpulling when they shouldn't in halls and then bailing coz we cant time it anymore.

    i toss 1 other thing in, people who only play with guildes then try and pug screwing up keys because they aren't use to how others pull and dps

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    neither should m+ in its entirety but here we are, we only have it because blizz only cares about the esports scene now

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    thats not true at all if im still in those grps its for 1 of 2 reasons im after a item form that dungeon or im there for vault as i have all the score i want (2k on main, 1700 on alts) since i have the score i just mainly go for vault doesn't mean im a bad player, there's just no reason for desire for me to go higher, i only do m+ for vault if the key is finished if its in time that's bonus.

    when it comes to certain dungeons halls as an example ive had more depleted keys there due to tanks overpulling when they shouldn't in halls and then bailing coz we cant time it anymore.

    i toss 1 other thing in, people who only play with guildes then try and pug screwing up keys because they aren't use to how others pull and dps
    bad player ? certainly not

    much worse player then someone with 2,3k-2,4k score ? definelty.

    play with actual good players and you will see veryvery few people leaving. i promise you .

    thing is actual good players dont play with 2k players unless they are boosting their friends.

  5. #465
    To be honest, I just report leavers (without a justified reason, like an emergency) as griefing and then block them.

  6. #466
    I've only done one and it was very easy to do so. People were stressing and shouting over mistakes. Fuck those people so hard they cant walk for a year

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morae View Post
    Im not sure why I'm even taking part in this discussion, but there should be commitment when you are part of m+ group.
    Eh... now you're mandating a social construct among strangers when no such contract exists. At the minimum, your suggestion (locked out of M+ for remaining time of dungeon timer) means that effectively you're holding players hostage for 20~30 minutes.

    Moreover, imagine the degenerate gameplay if such a system exists. Here's an example:

    The group clearly lacks the DPS/knowledge to do the first boss let alone the rest of the dungeon. If you leave, then you're benched for 20+ minutes so instead of leaving, the player (who wants to leave) either:

    A) Doesn't do anything period. Is active enough so that they don't trigger the AFK timer but doesn't contribute so effectively everybody is waiting that 20+ minutes.

    B) Purposely plays bad but you can't tell if they are being a bad player or trolling the group. Maybe they pull extra trash. Or body pulls (by accident) the next pack. Or doesn't use their DPS cooldowns. Or uses group DPS cooldowns at random points (i.e. pops Lust just as the last add is about to die).

    Quote Originally Posted by Morae View Post
    Also counter how many m+ you left that were not completed? No matter whether you were the one who left first or later. You are inside the m+ group and you dont complete it, a number grows by one. It should show something like sum of week or month. Legitimate players should have lower number than troll or ragequitter.
    So then even legitimate players are dragged down by those who ruin the key. Further disincentivizing random PuG M+.

    I guess if you wanted to force players to play with known people versus strangers, this last bit would be the way to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Penalty sure is needed. Blacklisting is useless because no one is willing to run 100 000 dungeons to get 50 000 leavers out of their system.
    Maybe, depends on how blacklisting is done. On an individual basis, yeah it would take a long time but if you crowdsourced it by compiling all the players blacklisted players (centered on accounts and not individual toons) then filtered the top 5% across a region so that those players could only PuG amongst those top 5%. So ragequitters can only play with other ragequitters.

    Maybe put in a time buffer so that eventually those in the top 5% of being blacklisted could cycle out eventually but don't tell players so the players can't game the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    The problem with M+ is the penalty of a keystone downgrade. Maybe if you could pull in people mid timer, it would mitigate the damage one player could do to the entire group.
    If you could pull in people mid-run, then what is to prevent a group of 4 replacing the 5th just prior to fighting the last boss of a dungeon so their friend carry can get the benefit?

    Sounds like a lot more abuse would happen under such a system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeht View Post
    m+ deserve being completely removed from the game
    Then you might as well remove dungeons as well. Because functionally dungeons have ZERO purpose without M+.

    Cataclysm dungeons were a good example. At launch, you would do up to 9 dungeons because they had relevant gear drops but quickly once we got to the next content patch, that dropped down to 2 dungeons then finally up to 3 dungeons (because why run the initial 9 when the later 3 gave better loot).

    M+ keeps dungeons relevant throughout the entire expansion because the loot drops can stay competitive with the raid tier. Yeah that also means that loot cycle can be stale (i.e. running DoS for the Nth time to get the most recent season's version of IQD) but at least it keeps players doing dungeons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    ppl like this need a sever penalty for doing this either that or blizzard and mmoc forums need to start allowing naming and shaming as ppl will keep doing this until they are know.
    Why? Was the run advertised as going for completion regardless of time? Was the key marked as Push/Timing? Why did the group leader make that comp? What factors lead to the recruitment of those people?

    Again we can go back the bottom line, why should someone (anyone) stay longer than they have to once they have determined that anymore investment of their time would be wasted? Sure your own time is valuable to you, but other players also share that same view. So in their minds, if their time is better served dropping this group for another, who are you to say "no you can't do that"?

    If you want more successful PuGs (especially in M+) then be up front about the goals of the group and the skill/knowledge of the players before starting the key. Make sure everyone is in agreement of the goals and acceptance of skill/knowledge so everyone knows what they are getting into. Anything short of that, and it's entirely the fault of the group leader for not doing their due diligence in forming the group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morae View Post
    You go do content like m+, you should commit the minimum time. Even if your group sucks, you should have commited enough time.
    Well I only commit to the group if they are actually of the appropriate skill and knowledge in relation to the content being done. If we're doing a +15 and the tank doesn't even know the basics of the first boss' mechanics then I'm outta there.

    Even on lower keys (lower than 9), I will comment if I see players fundamentally screwing up mechanics like not interrupting a key ability. After a few instances where the other players ignore those comments to improve then I'm outta there as well. After all if they aren't even going to attempt to fix their failures then why the hell should I help carry them through the dungeon?

    If the other players can't value my time then I don't have any respect for theirs either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morae View Post
    Go in the group assuming they are bad and you might be there until the max time.
    And what exactly is max time? A few hours? Half a day? Who has that kind of time?
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  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    -snip-
    m+ killed raiding for me, and I will stick to it
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post

    And what exactly is max time? A few hours? Half a day? Who has that kind of time?
    M+ timer? I thought it was obvious.

    All this is basically based on what I recall overwatch having in their comp with just adjustment to wow. At least was. I havent really played that game in a long time. If you dc too many times in the comp, you could not play it anymore. It didn't matter if it was legitimate or not. You went in, you commited to that comp match. You leave early, dc, troll, ragequit, etc., they didn't want you there.

    Additionally, I feel people take this a bit too far. If you dc or leave just once or twice, it probably wouldn't matter at all. Most people likely would have a few marks that , if you recall my suggestion, would fall of in a week, two weeks or month. Whatever devs would find ok. Nothing would change, if you arent a ragequiter or troll.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Morae View Post
    M+ timer? I thought it was obvious.

    All this is basically based on what I recall overwatch having in their comp with just adjustment to wow. At least was. I havent really played that game in a long time. If you dc too many times in the comp, you could not play it anymore. It didn't matter if it was legitimate or not. You went in, you commited to that comp match. You leave early, dc, troll, ragequit, etc., they didn't want you there.

    Additionally, I feel people take this a bit too far. If you dc or leave just once or twice, it probably wouldn't matter at all. Most people likely would have a few marks that , if you recall my suggestion, would fall of in a week, two weeks or month. Whatever devs would find ok. Nothing would change, if you arent a ragequiter or troll.
    I can't say I agree with the idea of investing a significant amount of time in a doomed run. A lot of wow players want a never say die clear a key bit matter what with levels of wiping that would never be considered acceptable pre mythic plus.

    I don't see the value in being forced to wait out a clearly doomed run I rather just move on.
    Last edited by Empower; 2021-08-24 at 01:56 PM.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamburger View Post
    To be honest, I just report leavers (without a justified reason, like an emergency) as griefing and then block them.
    sadly you cant block them unless you whisper them or they have said something in chat........

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Empower View Post
    I can't say I agree with the idea of investing a significant amount of time in a doomed run. A lot of wow players want a never say day clear a key bit matter what with levels of wiping that would never be considered acceptable pre mythic plus.

    I don't see the value in being forced to wait out a clearly doomed run I rather just move on.
    its because of clear conflict of interest

    you as good player dont want to waste time boosting bad players so you leave

    they as bad players dont want to waste time by having to remake group and start again and want to get boosted

    ofc they will do anything possible to force you into boosting them

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Why? Was the run advertised as going for completion regardless of time? Was the key marked as Push/Timing? Why did the group leader make that comp? What factors lead to the recruitment of those people?

    Again we can go back the bottom line, why should someone (anyone) stay longer than they have to once they have determined that anymore investment of their time would be wasted? Sure your own time is valuable to you, but other players also share that same view. So in their minds, if their time is better served dropping this group for another, who are you to say "no you can't do that"?

    If you want more successful PuGs (especially in M+) then be up front about the goals of the group and the skill/knowledge of the players before starting the key. Make sure everyone is in agreement of the goals and acceptance of skill/knowledge so everyone knows what they are getting into. Anything short of that, and it's entirely the fault of the group leader for not doing their due diligence in forming the group.
    yes ive stated in the tool and be4 i started the run that its just for completion to read i shouldn't be penalised for other peoples inability or unwillingness to read. i have noticed that people don't read that's in the advertisement at all i'll give you an example i had made a grp on my bear for spires 12 and still lacked hero so i put in the title need hero and i kid you not the 1st 3 applicants apon listing were as follows in this order a warrior a ret pala and a dh.

    and when we get to the last boss with 3 mins left a dps thinks we aren't going to make it and leaves we were 12 secs over the timer

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    sadly you cant block them unless you whisper them or they have said something in chat........
    Ofc you can ignore people without these using the chat first.
    Type: /ignore Name-Server

  15. #475
    This is a two way problem so its not as easy as just punnishing half of the problem.

    When you enter into a m+ its usually with a pre-existing arrangement.

    If you sign up for a 15+ dungeon the + implies its on time. So when people dont meet the requirements, or enough goes wrong, people will probably leave.

    There are people who agree with this pov and want all runs to finish no matter if they are timed or not and there are people who are only there for the on time rating.

    Unless blizzard starts supporting the lfg tool with "on time" vs "just finnish" check boxes this problem wont be fixed.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    Ofc you can ignore people without these using the chat first.
    Type: /ignore Name-Server
    i tried that 90% of the time it just comes up with 0 players found sadly.....

  17. #477
    Some of the takes in this thread are just baffling.

    There should be no penalty, never mind a massive penalty, for people leaving a M+ group, regardless if it is "rage quitting" or not.

    If the run is not going as expected (based on the group's intentions when you joined), leaving the group is acceptable. If the run is frustrating for the player, leaving the group is acceptable. If the group is toxic in any way, leaving the group is acceptable.

    This is a game, folks. This is not work. This is not an esports league. This is not an organization. This is a game. If you are no longer having fun in a game, removing yourself from the activity is not a degenerate behavior.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Some of the takes in this thread are just baffling.

    There should be no penalty, never mind a massive penalty, for people leaving a M+ group, regardless if it is "rage quitting" or not.

    If the run is not going as expected (based on the group's intentions when you joined), leaving the group is acceptable. If the run is frustrating for the player, leaving the group is acceptable. If the group is toxic in any way, leaving the group is acceptable.

    This is a game, folks. This is not work. This is not an esports league. This is not an organization. This is a game. If you are no longer having fun in a game, removing yourself from the activity is not a degenerate behavior.
    i completely disagree with this if i list a grp stating in the title that its a vault run and some1 leaves the instant we wipe or the timers going out, imo they should be penalised and heavily and don't give me any crap about them not having the time, IF THEY DONT HAVE TIME, THE SHOULDN'T JOIN OR APPPLY! its not my job to baby people that wont read the listing. if the cant or wont read it that's not my fault or problem its theirs

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Some of the takes in this thread are just baffling.

    There should be no penalty, never mind a massive penalty, for people leaving a M+ group, regardless if it is "rage quitting" or not.

    If the run is not going as expected (based on the group's intentions when you joined), leaving the group is acceptable. If the run is frustrating for the player, leaving the group is acceptable. If the group is toxic in any way, leaving the group is acceptable.

    This is a game, folks. This is not work. This is not an esports league. This is not an organization. This is a game. If you are no longer having fun in a game, removing yourself from the activity is not a degenerate behavior.
    I mean broadly, sure. But if you agree to do a group thing with other people there is (or should be) a basic covenant that you don't want to waste their time, and that they shouldn't waste yours. So leaving if you have an emergency or because the key is falling apart is all well and good, but yeeting off because you lost interest halfway through is just douchey imo.

    That said, they can't (and shouldn't) police this. Any cure would be worse than the disease.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  20. #480
    Wouldn't a solution be to add some kind of setting for what difficulty level you want 1-30 for example and simply remove the keystone system?

    It seems that having difficulty be a risked resource is the cause of most of the friction.

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