Poll: Do you think Alleria, Vereesa and elves like Valeera are traitors to Quel'Thalas?

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  1. #141
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread needs to settle down. Drop the invective and overly personal insults and discuss the matter civilly.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    So they weren't a part of the kingdom of Quel'Thalas that you yourself mentioned? Fascinating. Because what you "forgot" to mention is that Blood Elves aren't just the dominant faction, they are the ones in control of it, with direct continuation of power from Anasterian to the current regime. Alleria not being around when Kael made the purely symbolic decision to commemorate the fallen by slapping the Blood Elves name on them doesn't change that. Nor does it mean she doesn't owe her allegiance to the current leadership, because that's not how nations work.

    Meanwhile Freehold is literally described as free people's fort in the story and isn't a part of the Alliance. So it's kinda obvious you wouldn't be a traitor to the Alliance for killing a bunch of unaligned pirates and mercenaries. This example tries to distort the topic to that of race. It's not. If High Elves killed only a bunch of Felblood, San'layn or Wretched they'd be free of the blemish of treason, even though are all Thalassians.




    Yes, saying someone's argument is so short-sighted that it hurts is totally not throwing shade at them. Very convincing. And sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't need to declare that I am right, when the lore is right there for everyone to see. And since you're already moving the goalposts (by around 20 parsecs no less) just one paragraph below, if anyone's declaring victory for me, that'd be you by doing so.

    And please spare me your trite BS about how my only argumentative skill is "mindlessly shouting my own right" (speaking of which, I'm sure "in your opinion" that's also totally not you throwing shade at me ), when unlike the Alliance team of fanfiction peddlers I can actually source my arguments. Which, you know, I've done in the very post you're quoting here and trying to misrepresent. Though I suppose if you start from the position of rejecting canon and substituting it with made up nonsense the act may appear "mindless". Also, if we're already delving into argumentative skills of different people, the only argumentative trick you lot have got is playing the victim when your headcanon is called out for what it is and pretending it somehow magically vindicates you. Here's a free piece of trivia for you: it doesn't.




    What I "imagine" is that just one post ago you tried to pretend Alleria had no way of even knowing that Quel'Thalas even left the Alliance in the first place and assumed it would at most be neutral. Now you're trying to harp on her sources being biased in order to salvage your lie. Which is not very effective. For multiple reasons, even. Starting with how whether her sources were biased or not doesn't change the fact she did have sources, which already exposes your blatant lie for what it is. Secondly, while Vereesa is rather zealous when it comes to the Blood Elf topic, Arator has never expressed any such behavior.

    Thirdly, as it is indicated by my second example that you dishonestly cherry-picked out, Vereesa and Arator weren't her only sources anyway. So even if Arator is as biased as Vereesa, that doesn't change anything. Because her final source is Anduin, who sent her to Silvermoon to convince Lor'themar to rejoin the Alliance. And whatever bias Vereesa and Arator may or may not have used to sway Alleria, Anduin is so pure he gets bone aches from his holy bones when he as much as thinks a bad thought. So it's rather implausible he'd have tried to deceive Alleria with false portrayal of the situation.

    Finally, how does bias even enter the picture here? Whether Quel'Thalas left the Alliance or not is a matter of fact. It either left it or it didn't and is still a member. So while Vereesa may have painted the circumstances pertaining to the kingdom leaving the Alliance in a negative light, the same does not apply to the factual issue of Quel'Thalas' allegiance to the Alliance itself.




    Weird, I thought I had to wear you down so that you wouldn't even bother and then I'd declare victory. Yet here you are admitting she's indeed a traitor. Fascinating.

    Also, Alleria lost her genocidal hatred even before the end of Beyond the Dark Portal thanks to Turalyon and between then and now she also spend five hundred years fighting the Legion and another five hundred in a Naaru prison, so I'm not sure how said hatred still matters at this point.




    When did the Thalassian leadership make such assumption? And Lor'themar did not "consider her a ranger of Quel'Thalas" in the slightest. What he actually called her is a "guest" and "a hero of Quel'Thalas' past". Even if there was no deeper meaning behind the "past" part, there's no mention of her still being a ranger there. He also openly expressed mistrust of her on the grounds of her Void connections.

    Also, yes, desertion is still desertion regardless of what other people assume about you. Such assumptions are totally inconsequential, the only thing that matters to determine whether one has deserted or not are their actions. Also, no one said anything about desertion being permanent, deserters can return, which does in no way unmake their desertion. But desert she did, in more than one way. Her going AWOL on a personal Orc hunt was already an act of desertion in and of itself. But joining another military without authorization, which she did when she joined the expedition to Draenor, can also be considered desertion depending on the jurisdiction (it is the case in US, for example).




    And that wouldn't be correct either. First of all, the High Elves that are affiliated with the Alliance right now didn't "remain" with the Alliance. Quel'Thalas left the Alliance shortly after the Second War, meaning that they had to team up with the Alliance again. Secondly, applying this label at all High Elves is misguided. Because the current meaning of a High Elf stems first and foremost from the simple fact that Kael didn't gather all survivors of the Scourge's invasion. He only gathered 90% of them because the rest were, for one reason or another, out of his reach. And he renamed those survivors the Blood Elves, unaware of the rest. And while many of the other 10% did join the Alliance, some did not. So they're not all traitors.
    They are a hostile subfaction of the people of Quel'thalas, not representatives of the whole.
    It's a bit akin to many middle eastern countries: one faction has some more power than the others, yet whenever they overstep their boundaries they are reminded that in spite of the bluster they are but one of many; the others owe them nothing. It's why many such countries have such tenuous unity.

    In the blood elven case that amounts to two faults in whwt you mentioned:
    1. Anasterian's legacy ended with Kael's corruption and death, there is no legitimacy to be had anymore from that source. It's as if Joe Biden tried to paint a legitimate line from English kings to his presidency.
    2. The blood elves changed themsElves and thus separated themaelves from the baseline by conscious decision, they are at that point just another faction laying claim to being true Thalassians, and a ypunger, more dubious one at that (what with their resorting to fel and subjugating to foreign powers like the Horde).
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    They are a hostile subfaction of the people of Quel'thalas, not representatives of the whole.
    It's a bit akin to many middle eastern countries: one faction has some more power than the others, yet whenever they overstep their boundaries they are reminded that in spite of the bluster they are but one of many; the others owe them nothing. It's why many such countries have such tenuous unity.

    In the blood elven case that amounts to two faults in whwt you mentioned:
    1. Anasterian's legacy ended with Kael's corruption and death, there is no legitimacy to be had anymore from that source. It's as if Joe Biden tried to paint a legitimate line from English kings to his presidency.
    2. The blood elves changed themsElves and thus separated themaelves from the baseline by conscious decision, they are at that point just another faction laying claim to being true Thalassians, and a ypunger, more dubious one at that (what with their resorting to fel and subjugating to foreign powers like the Horde).
    The blood elves are the direct continuation of the Kingdom and culture. They are the vast majority of the people and as such define the standard of a Thalassian elf. Both high elves and Void elves are mere fringe groups.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    They are a hostile subfaction of the people of Quel'thalas, not representatives of the whole.
    They are not hostile to the stark majority of surviving Thalassians. Which ones are they hostile to? Oh, right, the dissidents.


    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    It's a bit akin to many middle eastern countries: one faction has some more power than the others, yet whenever they overstep their boundaries they are reminded that in spite of the bluster they are but one of many; the others owe them nothing. It's why many such countries have such tenuous unity.
    If there's any comparison to Middle Eastern to be had here it'd be Iraq. Where it went up in flames after Saddam's regime was steamrolled by a foreign invader, but out of what came afterwards one group was a clear successor of the state that's recognized across the world. And while others may not like it and even tried to fight it, they were deemed to be insurgents and terrorists with no actual claim. Blood Elves are still Iraq. Modern High Elves and Void Elves are its ISIS and Tanzim Qaidat.


    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    In the blood elven case that amounts to two faults in whwt you mentioned:
    1. Anasterian's legacy ended with Kael's corruption and death, there is no legitimacy to be had anymore from that source. It's as if Joe Biden tried to paint a legitimate line from English kings to his presidency.
    Kael's corruption and death happened after he appointed Lor'themar as the regent of Quel'Thalas. His later corruption doesn't retroactively negate his decisions as sovereign made prior to it, because that's not how anything works. To follow your example, just like a US president getting impeached doesn't nullify their executive orders and whatnot.


    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    2. The blood elves changed themsElves and thus separated themaelves from the baseline by conscious decision, they are at that point just another faction laying claim to being true Thalassians, and a ypunger, more dubious one at that (what with their resorting to fel and subjugating to foreign powers like the Horde).
    Except they didn't separate themselves for squat. I just pointed out that Kael's renaming thing was made in order to honor the fallen. That's some weird bar for separation you got there if honoring one's people equals separating oneself from them.
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  5. #145
    Dreadlord Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The entire Blood elven species are traitors for siding against the lawful, rightful, chosen by the law Warchief Garrosh.

    They have no rights to mock Alleria or Vereesa for "treason" when they themselves are traitors.
    So the rest of the Horde that took part in the Siege of Orgrimmar are traitors as well? And that's far and away most of the Horde's population, as given away by the fact that Garrosh had to collect, enslave and conscript various forces from Pandaria to supplement the Kor'kron, Orgrimmar Guard led by Nazgrim and the Blackfuse Company. Most of the Horde was against him so that doesn't seem an apt comparison given that the Blood Elves betrayed the Alliance after they had been oppressed by Garithos, de facto leader of the remnant forces of Lordaeron, to begin with.
    Last edited by Sagenod; 2021-09-29 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Pandaria said Pandarus lol
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  6. #146
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    So the rest of the Horde that took part in the Siege of Orgrimmar are traitors as well? And that's far and away most of the Horde's population, as given away by the fact that Garrosh had to collect, enslave and conscript various forces from Pandarus to supplement the Kor'kron, Orgrimmar Guard led by Nazgrim and the Blackfuse Company. Most of the Horde was against him so that doesn't seem an apt comparison given that the Blood Elves betrayed the Alliance after they had been oppressed by Garithos, de facto leader of the remnant forces of Lordaeron, to begin with.
    to be fair Garrosh did to the Darkspears what Garithos was going to do with the Blood Elves; except that Garrosh did have some Darkspears killed and turned into target practices under Orgrimmar
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  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair Garrosh did to the Darkspears what Garithos was going to do with the Blood Elves; except that Garrosh did have some Darkspears killed and turned into target practices under Orgrimmar
    Good point, I hadn't thought about that.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The blood elves are the direct continuation of the Kingdom and culture. They are the vast majority of the people and as such define the standard of a Thalassian elf. Both high elves and Void elves are mere fringe groups.
    The scourge were the vast majority and direct continustion of a lot of kingdoms, yet not even the forsaken considered them legitimate, hmm?
    No matter how many you are, if you change - only you change, the rest needs not be bothered with your mistakes.

    (an argument that can also be made to disregard the void elves of course, and that's also what happens in practice anyway - violence between the blood elves and the void elves exists aplenty, and involves no betrayal)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    They are not hostile to the stark majority of surviving Thalassians. Which ones are they hostile to? Oh, right, the dissidents.




    If there's any comparison to Middle Eastern to be had here it'd be Iraq. Where it went up in flames after Saddam's regime was steamrolled by a foreign invader, but out of what came afterwards one group was a clear successor of the state that's recognized across the world. And while others may not like it and even tried to fight it, they were deemed to be insurgents and terrorists with no actual claim. Blood Elves are still Iraq. Modern High Elves and Void Elves are its ISIS and Tanzim Qaidat.




    Kael's corruption and death happened after he appointed Lor'themar as the regent of Quel'Thalas. His later corruption doesn't retroactively negate his decisions as sovereign made prior to it, because that's not how anything works. To follow your example, just like a US president getting impeached doesn't nullify their executive orders and whatnot.




    Except they didn't separate themselves for squat. I just pointed out that Kael's renaming thing was made in order to honor the fallen. That's some weird bar for separation you got there if honoring one's people equals separating oneself from them.
    The "dissidents" are the only ones who remained as they were.
    If the "whole" of society gets hooked on crack and starts looking down on sober people, is that really the sober people's problem? Is it wrong for the sober people to defend their interests from the crack addicts?
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
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    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    The scourge were the vast majority and direct continustion of a lot of kingdoms, yet not even the forsaken considered them legitimate, hmm?
    No matter how many you are, if you change - only you change, the rest needs not be bothered with your mistakes.

    (an argument that can also be made to disregard the void elves of course, and that's also what happens in practice anyway - violence between the blood elves and the void elves exists aplenty, and involves no betrayal)

    - - - Updated - - -



    The "dissidents" are the only ones who remained as they were.
    If the "whole" of society gets hooked on crack and starts looking down on sober people, is that really the sober people's problem? Is it wrong for the sober people to defend their interests from the crack addicts?
    Dude, they were all crack addicts, its just that Blood Elves decided to male their own, while High Elves started to whore themselves to humans.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    So the rest of the Horde that took part in the Siege of Orgrimmar are traitors as well?
    Yes.

    Your post could have stopped here.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Dude, they were all crack addicts, its just that Blood Elves decided to male their own, while High Elves started to whore themselves to humans.
    They always whored themselves to humans though, and the earlier stuff was more akin to weed or something; bad, but not so evidently self-destructive.
    So yeah, it's like a bunch of addicted whores got into a hissy fit over one side not switching to crack when the rest did.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  12. #152
    Dreadlord Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair Garrosh did to the Darkspears what Garithos was going to do with the Blood Elves; except that Garrosh did have some Darkspears killed and turned into target practices under Orgrimmar
    I wasn't really speaking to the intensity of Garithos vs Garrosh's brutality. I'm just saying that if Varodoc is going to call the Blood Elves traitors to the Alliance for turning against Garithos, then the rest of the Horde (including the Blood Elves as he was mentioning) is full of traitors for turning against Garrosh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yes.

    Your post could have stopped here.
    Except no, that's incorrect. No matter how strong the ruler is, a nation is defined by the population. If a president becomes a despot and the people remove him from power, they are not traitors. That thought process is akin to that of a dictator.
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  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Dude, they were all crack addicts, its just that Blood Elves decided to male their own, while High Elves started to whore themselves to humans.
    The best part might have been when Vereesa was pointing fingers at her fellow countryfolk for surviving on mana wyrms or fel crystals, all while sitting her ass in Dalaran, where she had all the mana she could possibly want.
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    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
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  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    I wasn't really speaking to the intensity of Garithos vs Garrosh's brutality. I'm just saying that if Varodoc is going to call the Blood Elves traitors to the Alliance for turning against Garithos, then the rest of the Horde (including the Blood Elves as he was mentioning) is full of traitors for turning against Garrosh.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Except no, that's incorrect. No matter how strong the ruler is, a nation is defined by the population. If a president becomes a despot and the people remove him from power, they are not traitors. That thought process is akin to that of a dictator.
    Except that Garrosh was not a president and the Horde is not a democracy.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2021-09-29 at 10:15 PM.

  15. #155
    Didn't Vereesa take part in the Dalaran genocide? Yeah other than the terrorist silver covenant, the high elves aren't traitors, if anything they are hypocrits for being so judgemental towards the blood elves. Alleria in particular seems chill tho.

  16. #156
    I think these questions are far more nuanced than the mentality most gamers have. Those who paly elves are not properly been represented. When they behave pettily - it makes you wonder if they're truly highly intelligent. The ones that look the worse are the night elves.. benevolent and highly intelligent shouldn't behave like that - so it's either poor writing where writers write roles for races forgetting they aren't human or they're just trying to tell

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Bali View Post
    Didn't Vereesa take part in the Dalaran genocide? Yeah other than the terrorist silver covenant, the high elves aren't traitors, if anything they are hypocrits for being so judgemental towards the blood elves. Alleria in particular seems chill tho.
    It was not a genocide, like at all.

    Canonically the only events that have been described as "genocide" by characters in-universe are the Genocide of the Draenei, perpetuated by the Horde, and the Genocide of the Kaldorei, also perpetuated by the Horde in BfA.

    Notice the common denominator

  18. #158
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    So, as I'm understanding it, they are considered traitors because the people split? So, they are considered traitors because they didn't agree with the future of their people?
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  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It was not a genocide, like at all.

    Canonically the only events that have been described as "genocide" by characters in-universe are the Genocide of the Draenei, perpetuated by the Horde, and the Genocide of the Kaldorei, also perpetuated by the Horde in BfA.

    Notice the common denominator
    "The brutal murder of a bunch of innocents totally wasn't a bad thing you guys, ignore that and look at these other guys who aren't being discussed who did much worse"

    The only common denominator is your ever-present dung in these sorts of threads. For the sake of all of our sanity, please hurry up and get a better waifu—or just stop forcing your tasteless obsession down everyone's throat.

  20. #160
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    The Purge of Dalaran has better a claim to the term genocide than the igniting of that world tree inhabited by not only Night Elves but plenty of Worgen too. Teldrassil itself was the target, as opposed to any specific species living there, with the act of burning being a last ditch improvisation after the plans went awry. The actions that Jaina and Vereesa's Silver Covenant took againt the Sunreavers was not only racially motivated, but disproportional as a response to the actions taken by the lone Blood Elf who would've easily been exposed as not being a Sunreaver if anyone in Dalaran had taken any time at all to investigate the matter. The Blood Elven citizens of Dalaran, whether Sunreaver or not, were rounded up in the streets and exterminated. They were then of course hunted actross Pandaria and the Isle of Thunder. If that doesn't count as a genocide, then neither does torching the military base closest to the Horde's capitol. Intent matters, with Jaina and Vereesa's intent having been to eradicate the Sunreavers they wrongfully labeled traitors, while Sylvanas's intent was allegedly to strike fear into her enemies by slaying Malfurion. When Saurfang screwed that up, with suspiciously ample firepower at the ready, Teldrassil stood as the only target to elicit more or less the same response. Worth noting that the Horde didn't go off hunting either Night Elves or Worgen that fled, but remained focused on seizing Darkshore.

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