To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[ImpalerEU]

Be careful what you wish for.


You're basically Homer in this episode.

Ahaha, great thread.

This is what I have been saying about those people on Twitch, YouTube and other social media sites for years now.

People need to realize that these people love to complain because it’s their source of income. They don’t really know what they’re talking about 90% of the time and never provided any effective long-term advice.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Didn't Jeff Kaplan come from a hard core Everquest guild? Seems to me that players with a vast knowledge of MMO gaming can help WoW if done constructively. IMO though at this point it's probably too hard to fix the game and it would be better if they just started from scratch with something new.

Yup. WoW was made by hardcore EQ raiders who were disatisfied with the game and wanted to make their own dream MMO, but also wanted it to be accessible by everyone. Hence the causal features that WoW was ridiculed for at launch, so as no losing exp upon death or deleveling, or leveling up by doing quests instead of mob farming, and so on. Modern WoW is made by hardcore WoW raiders (ie, people from Elitist Jerks) who want to make a game for themselves and don't care about the rest of the playerbase.

"The game doesn't have any problem. It's the people pointing out problems who are the real problem."

The fact that this apparently warranted a thread let alone 45 pages of meta-discussion really says a lot about the state of this forum.

A testament to the unfathomable popularity of Blizzard entertainment and WoW back in the day, that over a decade into a humilating decline, people are still bending over backwards trying to hang on to WoW.

Bellular is the Emperor Palpatine of WoW YTers. He subsides entirely off of the empty, hollow, surface level hatred of ex-WoW players who can't move on from the game so they need reassurance that they are correct in their approximations of Blizzard developers who clearly designed the game poorly on purpose. Why else would he continue to make video after video where he claims Blizzard's own APIs prove the game sucks?

Bellular is very passionate about WoW and keeps hoping, wishing for it to be better. He just hasn't let go yet.

Don´t have time to read the hole 45 pages in this topic, but thinking the youtubers mencioned here moved to other games because of a trend is naive to say at least.

Youngers here don´t use it anymore, but Podcasts exist since the beginning of WoW, before Youtube and Twitch, some of them are still active today, like The Instance and Warcast, and guess what, in the last year and a half, both stoped doing WoW content, The Instance is a generic Games Podcast, and Warcast, is almost inactive.

Didn't Convert To Raid die several years ago?

Even MMO Champion strugles with WoW content, and I bet their visitors are in low minimals for a very long time.

I don't understand why MMO-C didn't try to grow their brand beyond just being a WoW fansite. Other forums like Spacebattles continue to grow because they broadened their scope rather than dying when 90's and early 2000's sci fi went out of vogue.

[ImpalerEU]

This thread will not go very far.

Yes it did.

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Spot on...
And the funny/sad part is, that at Blizz they are looking for new design and similar jobs non stop, but not one of them sent their resume to Blizz... Or maybe they did and were rejected because, "NO GAME DESIGN EXPERIENCE".

Yet, people listen to this sheep dogs like they are all mighty lords of game design...

They will never send anything. They’re making good money pretending to be experts by deceiving their extremely simple minded followers. These people are entertainers, nothing more. Try to explain that to a simple minded person that takes them seriously though.

In all honesty, I don’t even think that Bellular plays the game. The man has been living off clickbaits since he started.

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A testament to the unfathomable popularity of Blizzard entertainment and WoW back in the day, that over a decade into a humilating decline, people are still bending over backwards trying to hang on to WoW.



Bellular is very passionate about WoW and keeps hoping, wishing for it to be better. He just hasn't let go yet.

I’ve been reading that malarkey since I started playing in 2007. This is nothing but an attempt to advertise another game. WoW is doing fine and still stomping every other MMO out there.

As far as Bellular is concerned, Bellular will stick around and continue to to spread his clickbaits not because he’s “passionate”, but because WoW guarantees clicks and that’s what gets him paid and keeps him relevant.

Please don’t try to make it sound like he’s doing WoW any “favors” because WoW doesn’t need favors from him or people like him. You are clearly far too influenced by the mindless negativity and general garbage of sites like Reddit.

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Blizzards should take feedback and listen to what players want. Then give players what they actually need. They haven't been doing either for some time now.

The Blizzard developers are Homer and Uncle Herbert is the CEO/Shareholders in this video.

That’s because people don’t know what they want.

[Relapses]

Bellular is very passionate about WoW and keeps hoping, wishing for it to be better. He just hasn't let go yet.

He's so passionate he barely plays the game. Only the most passionate players play a game less than 20 minutes a week and spend hours and hours talking about how bad it is. Passion. It's definitely passion motivating him.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Meanwhile, Bellular continues to cover relevant WoW news without any criticism. And always has. And separates his critique videos from his news videos.

GASP. SHOCK. I thought these people only farmed the algorithm by constantly posting negative things about WoW?!?!?!?!?!1111

Whoa, it turns out these guys make tons and tons of videos about all kinds of games now that they're no longer tying their entire career to WoW as well.



Anyone who claims that Bellular et al. only ever shit on WoW for views can get dumped on. On top of said people not being able to differentiate constructive criticism from shitting on the game solely for shitting on it. I'd say that's more an example of classic projection. Their own inability to only see people as either WoW lovers or WoW haters, and no criticism of WoW can ever be good. At least that's what I see. Bad faith posters on here never offer up any constructive criticism, they just continuously praise the Blizzard gods and their only task on these forums is to make useless posts that dump on anyone who offers critique.

I'd say content creators who offer feedback to problems, as well as possible solutions, continue to have good ideas that far outdunk anything most forum posters on here have come up with. Look at 9.0 to 9.1 and how so many of those changes were things recommended by the content creators way back in beta. But so much of the community dumped on the content creators for said feedback, then praised Blizzard for making those changes. It's never been any more clear than ever that those who view themselves as "elevated" and "unbias" and "enlightened" and "original" because they never once listen to those stinky content creators just... aren't.

[Pratt]

If you don't like a certain content creator don't click their videos. Unsub. Tap do not recommend this channel. Erase them from your brain. Don't post about them. It's really not that hard. This thread is 47 pages of advertisements for these guys.

[Tyris Flare]

If you don't like a certain content creator don't click their videos. Unsub. Tap do not recommend this channel. Erase them from your brain. Don't post about them. It's really not that hard. This thread is 47 pages of advertisements for these guys.

This insidious nature of Engagement as the only worthwhile metric: hate is just as good and sometimes better than joy!

Thanks for this dystopia, Zuck

[Cthulhu 2020]

Also saw some good ole WoW gatekeeping in this thread. "Bellular's guild didn't even finish heroic!"

Ah yes, if only Bellular was making comments on heroic/mythic and not... every other aspect of the game that they do take part in. You might have a point.

It's the classic "If you haven't finished mythic your opinion on everything else doesn't matter!" gatekeeping which is a bit monkaS

[troqu]

Lumping all of these together is just pretty wild. Only someone who has never seen a T&E video would think they are somehow the same as Asmon or Bellular. The same goes for any other combination.

Isn't that just proof they don't actually watch any of their content? They probably take other people's word that X youtuber (in this case any youtuber that's ever made wow content) is nothing but a hater and shits on Blizzard/WoW all day. There's no other explanation for thinking that all of those creators are the same.

[Gadzooks]

...if only Bellular could take Preach's advice on hair plugs, too.

JK, I'm not going to pretend Bellular is capable of takes deeper than, "uh, like, listen to feedback" these days.

He did, though, he had a hair transplant over the summer.

The second part...dunno, don't really care. I have zero interest in Final Fantasy or how it's better than WoW, which is most of Bellular's content these days, I haven't watched him in a while because of that. At this point, if you're even half awake when it comes to Blizzard, the scandals, and the wow devs, you know is bad, and if you think the mile long oil tanker called Blizzard is gonna turn on a dime, man, I have an expansion to sell you, called World Of Warcraft: The Brooklyn Bridge.

Okay, that was bad. I apologize.

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T&E are pretty much as bad if not worse... Out of all of them I have found T&E or more so Tali to be the most toxic. Now sure, his toxicity is usually not so much as 'against WoW', but more his toxicity in his pro-WoW approach which comes off with a lot of toxic positivity. Pretty much like the WoW defenders on this forum basically. also Tali throws childish temper tantrums on stream... one of the reasons I stopped watching the guy was because he would spend a whole stream crying to his chat... it became over bearing. Even his youtube videos which to his credit are well done and well made come across as so smug.

Don't get me started. I was fooled by the persona he puts on with his suit jacket for his YT shows, but I made the mistake of watching his Twitch stream, and it's a completely different person - and a very toxic, smug, childish person. "Iknowbetterthanyouandifyoudontagreehahahafuckyouhahahanoreallyfuckyou" got nerve grating fast.

His wife seems nice enough, though.

[GreenJesus]

THeres a decent shot that if these people you talk of had the same options of media to convey opinions(Twitch, youtube++), they would never step into the world of making MMORPGs in the first place and instead keep on flushing out complaints videos on a weekly/daily basis.

The people you speak of had no other agenda back then than a wish and desire to create better and good games. The content creators of today(asmon, bellula++) today will never, ever, step out of that world and actually me a game dev. Why would they? As it is now, they can keep on making negative(most of the time) videos and rake in the big bucks without having any real responsibility towards the game. For these content creators, it doesnt matter if 10.0 flops or is great. In fact, its probably better if its shit. Cause then they can make negative videos for 2+ years and when 11.0 is close, they can make hype videos. and so goes the cycle, complaining for views without any responosibiltiy whatsoever.

Never forget that these content creators do what they do for reveneue, likes, views and money. If they really wanted too, they could have become game devs and work on games themself. Right now, it works making negative spun videos.

When 10.0 draws closer(with beta), there will be made 12987319831 YT videos about how hype it will be. When 10.0 launches, its initial hype videos. 6+ months in, the negative spun videos begin. They keep on coming until 11.0 is getting close, then repeat it all.

Asmon doesn't make youtube videos and hasn't made YouTube videos in years. In fact he barely even streams on his main channel anymore. He just streams on his Zack channel with no camera and just says what he thinks while playing whatever game he feels like. For asmon it doesn't matter whether wow fails or not. He can just play ff14 and have the same if not more viewers now. You just see streamers/content creators in the worst possible light.

Do you think they want to make negative content for the game they cover? That's a terrible long term business strategy to make people hate the game that you are most recognized for playing.

[ippollite]

The shit talking on Taliesin feels very meangirls. He's thin-skinned (by his own admission), easily triggered (by his own admission), and argumentative to a fault (by his own admission). His stream and youtube content are different beasts. As a youtuber, with a script (he writes), and time to process his thoughts, he's incredibly funny, insightful and entertaining. On stream he's a bit more prickly and defensive. Possibly because he's been on the receiving end of a lot of criticism from the wow community for his unashamed positivity regarding the game he clearly adores since he blew up.
And also because he is so very easy to trigger into a meltdown...

But i genuinely dont doubt for a second he loves wow. He wants everyone else to love wow. Its almost childlike adoration. Just watch his shadowbringers stream to see it. There isnt a single emotional, heartfelt story beat that doesnt devolve into prickly defensiveness (and 20 minutes of arguing with chat) that 'if blizzard did this, we wouldnt hear the end of it!' The dude genuinely loves HIS game.

[niztheundead87]

Also saw some good ole WoW gatekeeping in this thread. "Bellular's guild didn't even finish heroic!"

Ah yes, if only Bellular was making comments on heroic/mythic and not... every other aspect of the game that they do take part in. You might have a point.

It's the classic "If you haven't finished mythic your opinion on everything else doesn't matter!" gatekeeping which is a bit monkaS

its not only he doesnt do raid hc /mythic , he doesnt do m+ , pvp or anything for the matter.
barely does any hc raid, highest key done in time s2 is a 12 9 lol ) 0 pvp . so please drop an opinion on why should anyone listen to someone who doesnt even play the game.

[Relapses]

its not only he doesnt do raid hc /mythic , he doesnt do m+ , pvp or anything for the matter.
barely does any hc raid, highest key done in time s2 is a 12 9 lol ) 0 pvp . so please drop an opinion on why should anyone listen to someone who doesnt even play the game.

He says he cares a lot about the game in every video he makes on it (especially the ones where he uses Blizzard's API to prove, unequivocally, that it was Covenants bad storytelling unfun systems {insert /r/wow's latest circlejerk here} that caused this whole mess). Unless you mean to imply somebody would just go on the internet and tell lies?

[niztheundead87]

He says he cares a lot about the game in every video he makes on it (especially the ones where he uses Blizzard's API to prove, unequivocally, that it was Covenants bad storytelling unfun systems {insert /r/wow's latest circlejerk here} that caused this whole mess). Unless you mean to imply somebody would just go on the internet and tell lies?

i'm only saying that he knows negativity sells and that is pretty much what he has been doing for a while now.feeding the outrage mob and patting themselves on the back for sharing a similar opinion. some people choose to listen to people like him because they want to hear the opinion they already have from someone else. but you cant say his opinion has any merit if none at all since he has no clue of the game. like when he made a video about how he wants harder dungeons and then he does 0 mythic plus keys. he is a lfr raider level player. at least preach played the game in mythic lvl raiding. im not saying people shouldnt listen to you if you are not echo / limit raider but at least have a bare minimum knowledge of the game.

[NineSpine]

The point

Your sense of what's actually going on in the world

Your sense of self-worth

Just like proper punctuation - nowhere to be found

Unsurprisingly.

Apparently that joke went over your head too.

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its not only he doesnt do raid hc /mythic , he doesnt do m+ , pvp or anything for the matter.
barely does any hc raid, highest key done in time s2 is a 12 9 lol ) 0 pvp . so please drop an opinion on why should anyone listen to someone who doesnt even play the game.

You are so close to getting it. Blizzard has made the game only for people that want to do rated pvp, hc raiding, or m+. People that aren’t really into those activities are unhappy with e the game. Are you really not seeing it?

[Cthulhu 2020]

its not only he doesnt do raid hc /mythic , he doesnt do m+ , pvp or anything for the matter.
barely does any hc raid, highest key done in time s2 is a 12 9 lol ) 0 pvp . so please drop an opinion on why should anyone listen to someone who doesnt even play the game.

Bellular was first and foremost a WoW news caster, and that's how he really got onto the scene. He used to do more of the M+ and higher end raiding, but has dropped off recently. That's why he both has connections to and has people on his team who do a lot of these things, and he often defers to them when it comes to making critiques. Which isn't even the most common video he makes.

As I mentioned above, the so-called ""negative"" videos that people don't like offer critique on the game, but such videos make such a small part of his overall content. It's why I find it hilarious that people make such sweeping judgments on his content. It's clear they haven't even watched most of what he puts out there. So claims that he's merely farming the negativity algorithm are bunk, and such claims only made by people looking to validate their own feelings on the game.

I'd like to know what lies he's told, but I'm sure I'd get non-answers and excuses from that particular forum poster, as they've said that's all they're willing to make and will never back up their claims, so it's sort of useless waiting for a response from them on that front.

[niztheundead87]

Bellular was first and foremost a WoW news caster, and that's how he really got onto the scene. He used to do more of the M+ and higher end raiding, but has dropped off recently. That's why he both has connections to and has people on his team who do a lot of these things, and he often defers to them when it comes to making critiques. Which isn't even the most common video he makes.

As I mentioned above, the so-called ""negative"" videos that people don't like offer critique on the game, but such videos make such a small part of his overall content. It's why I find it hilarious that people make such sweeping judgments on his content. It's clear they haven't even watched most of what he puts out there. So claims that he's merely farming the negativity algorithm are bunk, and such claims only made by people looking to validate their own feelings on the game.

I'd like to know what lies he's told, but I'm sure I'd get non-answers and excuses from that particular forum poster, as they've said that's all they're willing to make and will never back up their claims, so it's sort of useless waiting for a response from them on that front.

bellular high raiding? he doesnt even clear hc : https://raider.io/characters/eu/ravencrest/Bellular see for yourself

denying the fact his videos are clickbaity is like being totally blind :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suC71jhdHqQ&t=918s go to the 15:00

video tittle her true plan revealed , goes on to say we dont know her true plan.

[Niwes]

Ahahaha this video is perfect response to all of this, more than anyone else could muster.

yeah, there are a lot of ppl in this thread, not understanding that ppl like Preach just give a fuck.

ppls like Asmongold or Preach just managed to do the thinngs they like (playing video games) and get paid by it. they dont get rich AF by it. they get paid by it, to live their normal life, without doing a 9-5 job. if they dont like wow anymore, because of their personal preferences, they simply play another game. ofc they always watch a bit out for keeping their follower numbers high. but they arent some company, focusing solely on max profit and therefore playing games they dont like, just because it made them more money. thats not how this works. otherwise there would be no difference to a „job“ and thats exactly the opposite of what they want.

so in short: some ppl here seems to have way more drama with all that shit, than these bad youtubers, because they just give a fuck (as every sane person should) and move on, when there is too much, what they dont like anymore.

some ppls here take some things way too serious, while at the same time not really get how reality works.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

They would. This forum is proof of it. It's a time capsule of toxicity. Go back to Legion, MoP or hell, even all the way back in WotLK -- almost 2/3rds the posts here were the same exact negativity we see nowadays. It's just now people feel a lot more validated in their negativity since they have streamers and YouTubers whispering sweet nothings in their ears 24/7.

edit: Before somebody quotes this and says I'm (yet again) defending Blizzard -- this does not mean that I think the game is in a great state right now. I acknowledge that it has flaws; I'm just commenting on the echo chamber nature of this community (and how it isn't really a new phenomena).

I agree that people were always complaining. But I have to disagree with you that it was just the same as now. As someone who played since classic and also played a lot of other games which eventually sadly ended (like WildStar for example) I can say there is a difference in the amount of complaining and also the stuff people are complaining about.

Back in the day the people were mostly complaining about class balancing. I still remember all the complaints about rogues on most of the forums. People also complained about bugs etc.

But there was a lot more positivity back then. People made Machinima videos, community events and fun stuff. Some of the most popular internet videos were about WoW back then. People still complained, but never like THIS! A lot of people were still pretty satisfied with Blizzard.

It was similar with WildStar forums at the beginning. People were very positive. But as soon as the devs gave up on the game, stopped communicating and other stuff you already knew something was up. I get the same feeling from Blizzard right now. You also had a lot more community interaction back then. And there were always posts about GM-player interaction. Now you rarely see those posts anymore.

So I have to strongly disagree. There is a notable difference in the amount of complaining. There is almost no positivity about the game now, compared to back then.

If you feel like the community complained the same way back then, then it is now, then you propably spend a lot of time on a lot of pretty toxic forums back then. There will propably always toxicity. But it always depends on how much toxicitiy there is and how much positivity is in the community to compensate for that. And this has definitely changed.

But maybe it is different for you. But if WoW was toxic for you back in the day, I wonder which forums you visited back then.

Edit: Even looking at MMO-Champion forum posts back then there is less toxicity! The topics on MMO-Champion weren't that toxic back then. You can look by yourself: https://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/...ions/page11111

It was just general speculation about the game or tips about the game. No complaing about why the game is in a bad state. You need to scroll a bit before you stumble towards a toxic post. Now compare that to now, where you can't even scroll to one page of posts without toxicity. You can simply skim through the pages from page 11111 towards now and you will not find THAT many complaints about the overall game. Most complaints are about class balance or bugs. But this is nothing compared to now.