Was Sylvanas a good warchief?

[Triceron]

BFA put us in a state where if the Alliance doesn't make a Horde genocide the Horde will make an Alliance one.

Nah. It was setting up the puppet ruler with Varok being the puppet. Not gonna say that Anduin is all manipulative or whatever, but Varok as Warchief would have brought the Alliance and Horde closest as allies, after uniting against the common threat that was Sylvanas.

From the get go, it wasn't the 'Horde' causing a genocide, it was purely planted on Sylvanas, and even members within the Horde were questioning her leadership and undermining her operations. That makes it easier to throw Sylvanas out as Warchief, and ultimately she sealed her own fate with the whole 'you're all nothing' speech.

The Horde council may be the closest thing the Alliance has to a peaceful Horde. Yet it seems Blizzard is setting it all up for an Alliance-aggressor future plot setup with Turalyon in the lead and Anduin forcibly 'out of the picture'.

[geco]

Nah. It was setting up the puppet ruler with Varok being the puppet. Not gonna say that Anduin is all manipulative or whatever, but Varok as Warchief would have brought the Alliance and Horde closest as allies, after uniting against the common threat that was Sylvanas.

From the get go, it wasn't the 'Horde' causing a genocide, it was purely planted on Sylvanas, and even members within the Horde were questioning her leadership and undermining her operations. That makes it easier to throw Sylvanas out as Warchief, and ultimately she sealed her own fate with the whole 'you're all nothing' speech.

The Horde council may be the closest thing the Alliance has to a peaceful Horde. Yet it seems Blizzard is setting it all up for an Alliance-aggressor future plot setup with Turalyon in the lead and Anduin forcibly 'out of the picture'.

All this logic applied to Voljin as well and they still did what they did.
Or it also applied that after Garrosh they were not going to have a Garraosh 2.0 ... and what happened still happened.
Even Thrall could not prevent the Horde from invading the Kaldorei Forests. (Which now according to new lore cutting Kaldore trees is the equivalent of destroying their souls or something like that.)

For now the rule is "The Horde is evil and Genocidal until proven otherwise."

IF they wanted an aggressive Alliance they would not have Tyrande accept forgiveness. Destroying the Pj of Elune and getting the Kaldorei fans to leave.
The Horde is going to be the bad guys again. To bad of Lore T-T

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The catapult does not hit the base of Teldrassil, it hits the top of the tree.
(If it were at the base, it would be more difficult for them not to turn it off being winged from the water.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpvRrlYp7tA

The rest of the Alliance did nothing for most of the war but obey Anduin's orders. Likewise, no one said anything about abandoning the Kaldorei because in this senseless lore they are supposed to be at peace even though Tyrande did not sign the peace and therefore they are still at war.

the catapult's didn't hit the top of the tree.

It was too late. The second barrage hit, and within moments, the lower half of the World Tree was engulfed in flames. The fire moved as if it were alive, climbing the tree, scrambling toward the city in the heights of its branches.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/st...ory/a-good-war

The alliance has worked on a high king system since cata the high king has command of the whole of the alliance military Tyrande doesn't need to sign any thing the alliance is out of the war when anduin says it is. The night elf's are free to do what ever they want on there own but the alliance as a whole signs off with anduin.

[geco]

the catapult's didn't hit the top of the tree.

In the video they are in the city and the catapult attacks are falling.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/st...ory/a-good-war

The alliance has worked on a high king system since cata the high king has command of the whole of the alliance military Tyrande doesn't need to sign any thing the alliance is out of the war when anduin says it is. The night elf's are free to do what ever they want on there own but the alliance as a whole signs off with anduin.

It's not supposed to. But yes in the current lore as anduin is white and man rules over all XD. (Because they have no real merit)

[Lorgar Aurelian]

In the video they are in the city and the catapult attacks are falling.


It's not supposed to. But yes in the current lore as anduin is white and man rules over all XD. (Because they have no real merit)

The video doesn't even show that it just has random explosions. Lore wise the catapults hit the base of the tree and the fire spread up it.

the high king is also suppose to work exactly that way they made the role so the alliance would have the unified Military front in the first place.

[Triceron]

All this logic applied to Voljin as well and they still did what they did.
Or it also applied that after Garrosh they were not going to have a Garraosh 2.0 ... and what happened still happened.
Even Thrall could not prevent the Horde from invading the Kaldorei Forests. (Which now according to new lore cutting Kaldore trees is the equivalent of destroying their souls or something like that.)

For now the rule is "The Horde is evil and Genocidal until proven otherwise."

That's been my point from the beginning.

Their portrayal in WoW has been a mixed bag at best, because Blizzard has every chef dipping their fingers in the soup and adding whatever they want without considering what kind of soup they're making.

Is the Horde supposed to be redeemed and good? Then why the whole PVP territory conquering and 'Blood and Honor! Death to the Alliance!' when we know Thrall was on good terms with the Alliance after WC3. Or why keep old traditions like Mak'gora, which allow any ruthless powerful character to take charge of the Horde through pure strength rather than good ideals. It's a conflict of interest in most parts, and overall with decisions like incorporating the Forsaken and Blood Elves and doing absolutely nothing to redeem their ways, it really does paint the Horde as being more easily swayed towards evil overlords than not. It really is a 'Horde is evil and genocidal' based on the very story the writers decided to carry through with them over the years. Whether it's Garrosh or Sylvanas or even Thrall's own negligence, the Horde is built to be a ruthless force that's simply there to oppose the Alliance.

[Mehrunes]

She never recruited Blood Elves into the Horde, people keep saying this nonsense as if it were canon. The Chronicle mentions that she convinced the leaders of the Horde to take them, but they also negotiated directly with Thrall.

And if you actually read the relevant quest text, you'd have known that even moments before admitting them into the Horde Thrall was patently uninterested in the prospect and explicitly mentioned being pestered by Sylvanas about it. Which changed only when he read the letter about how Forsaken-backed Tranquilien forces took down Dar'khan and he begrudgingly accepted them.

<snip>

First of all, most of this has squat to do with Lordaeron, but at this point you made it blatantly clear you're simply incapable of actually replying on point and instead have to resort to scattershot of random nonsense in order to hide the weakness of your arguments.

Anyway, Tyrande had to be schooled on basic tactics by a guy who was fighting the first war of his life back in MoP, despite being thousands of years old. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that her getting outsmarted by Saurfang and Sylvanas is something that's unfathomable. Especially since it was Tyrande's dumb ass itself that suggested Anduin the idea of sending the Night Elven army to Silithus in the first place. As for Jarod, he's been pretty much a hermit since the War of the Ancients and only ever returned from his self-exile in response to Deathwing's forces setting fiery camp right on Hyjal and the Legion returning. He has bothered participating in Horde-Alliance fights whooping zero of times. And I don't know through what mysterious leaps of logic did you get from being able to talk to trees to knowing every crevice in the entirety of Night Elven territory. Especially since Malfurion spent a great deal of those 10k years being asleep in a burrow.

As for Lordaeron, as per Saurfang's estimate when he was discussing the war plans with Sylvanas, after Legion the Horde's navy was in a slightly better shape than the Alliance 's and according to him they would have been able to defeat the Alliance one even when attacking Stormwind, despite that providing the Alliance with shoreline defenses, as well as spellcasters of all kinds supporting their navy (it's just that they wouldn't be able to transport an army large enough to besiege the city afterwards). In Lordaeron the tables were turned, meaning Horde's advantage was even larger. So Alliance shouldn't have been able to even make a landing.

Then comes the Jaina ex machina that you yourself admitted. Though the idea that the Alliance was surprised at Sylvanas using the Blight is shockingly a misrepresentation. They only expressed surprise that the Horde was using the Blight even against their own soldiers from the unsuccessful sally. I know there persists some idea that "the Alliance should have equipped themselves with protective gear!!11!", but they have never been shown to have any. Either way, even if the Alliance was surprised at the use of Blight in general, which it wasn't, the idea that it somehow counterbalances a deus ex machina makes no sense and is just yet another case of you scratching the bottom of the barrel in desperation, scraping some mold off of it and pretending you found an argument.

Then comes Anduin's initial charge into the breach where he gets stopped by the Horde force led by Baine and Nathatos. With, you guessed it, more Blight. Where the Alliance was "saved" by Alleria warping in with Mekkatorque. The thing is, they warped on top of Anduin's position, not the Blight weaponry. They did absolutely nothing to counter it or take it out. So given how the very same Blight completely fucked the Alliance just five minutes earlier and required Jaina arriving at the last second out of nowhere to save them, how exactly did Alleria's arrival change anything? It only provided more Alliance soldiers to melt.

Finally, there's Anduin and co's escape from the throne room, with Jaina shielding the squad with her Mage casting. Even though it's been long since established that neither normal magic nor even the Light do anything to defend from the Blight and that the only thing that works is Dreadlord magic. So unless Blizzard was trying to tell us something about the meme of Jaina being a Dreadlord, she pulled that shield out of her ass.

So would you look at that, four times just like I said. With honorable mention to the time where Anduin destroyed an Azerite tank that was capable of destroying the entirety of the Alliance's siege weaponry in an instant by simply smacking the top of it with his sword. The rest of it is mostly irrelevant since by that time the Alliance should have already been destroyed. The only remaining preceding bit is the part about Odyn. Where I already pointed out to you in the other thread that Odyn was a valor-obsessed lunatic who merrily offered Skovald one last chance, outside of the scope of his trials, to get his Legion-aligned hands on the Aegis, even though it would have literally doomed Azeroth as it was impossible to seal the portal at Broken Shore without all of the Pillars of Creation. Despite the fact that his very directive was defending Azeroth from such threats. But sure, he'd totally change his behavior in response to Sylvanas, because reasons.

[geco]

The video doesn't even show that it just has random explosions. Lore wise the catapults hit the base of the tree and the fire spread up it.

Nope. But if I agree with you, it is only a matter of carrying more these continental catapults.
Instead of shooting it from two distance zones you shoot it from the same zone

the high king is also suppose to work exactly that way they made the role so the alliance would have the unified Military front in the first place.

Leading the exercise does not stop wars. By the way, it is not an ereditary position either.
If the Kaldorei are still at war and the Alliance abandons them in their defensive war (which is still that because the Horde did what we know or left their lands) the alliance is going to dissolve because it fails as an Alliance. (If we used logic. But as we know it is not used here)

...

It is beautiful how the Horde passed something that does not have to redeem they are just "different". To something that is wrong just to exist.
But well, what we do. I assume we agree that as long as these writers write, no peace is possible.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Nope. But if I agree with you, it is only a matter of carrying more these continental catapults.
Instead of shooting it from two distance zones you shoot it from the same zone



Leading the exercise does not stop wars. By the way, it is not an ereditary position either.
If the Kaldorei are still at war and the Alliance abandons them in their defensive war (which is still that because the Horde did what we know or left their lands) the alliance is going to dissolve because it fails as an Alliance. (If we used logic. But as we know it is not used here)

If the catapults don't have the ability to hit high enough carrying more wont help. also sitting on an open plain with no cover makes them a easy target.

The high king has final say on the alliance military and rather they are at war or not it's why Jjina try's to get Varian to end the horde at the end of SOO because he gets to choose how the war ends.

The alliance also wouldn't dissolve if one faction in it want's to go against the whole that's exactly what happened with the night elf's in BFA and no one backed them but the wolfs if the night elf's wanted to leave the alliance because of it they could freely do it just like the wolf's and Kul tirans did in WC3

[geco]

If the catapults don't have the ability to hit high enough carrying more wont help. also sitting on an open plain with no cover makes them a easy target.

The high king has final say on the alliance military and rather they are at war or not it's why Jjina try's to get Varian to end the horde at the end of SOO because he gets to choose how the war ends.

The alliance also wouldn't dissolve if one faction in it want's to go against the whole that's exactly what happened with the night elf's in BFA and no one backed them but the wolfs if the night elf's wanted to leave the alliance because of it they could freely do it just like the wolf's and Kul tirans did in WC3

You shoot up. It has to do with the initial velocity. If you can walk 10 kilometers along. You can aim higher and reach 3 Kilometers.

Lobos and Kultiras left in time of Peace not time of war and by the way the rules of the Alliance clearly change according to what the Script wants.
So let's say the Kaldorei leave and the wolves and Dranei have to leave because they live on their lands. All because the Alliance refused to defend them. We have 3 races left that do not know whether or not they can trust the alliance to defend them.

[Maxilian]

No, but she did bring a lot of new allies to the horde with the Allied races.

[darkoms]

And if you actually read the relevant quest text, you'd have known that even moments before admitting them into the Horde Thrall was patently uninterested in the prospect and explicitly mentioned being pestered by Sylvanas about it. Which changed only when he read the letter about how Forsaken-backed Tranquilien forces took down Dar'khan and he begrudgingly accepted them.




First of all, most of this has squat to do with Lordaeron, but at this point you made it blatantly clear you're simply incapable of actually replying on point and instead have to resort to scattershot of random nonsense in order to hide the weakness of your arguments.

Anyway, Tyrande had to be schooled on basic tactics by a guy who was fighting the first war of his life back in MoP, despite being thousands of years old. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that her getting outsmarted by Saurfang and Sylvanas is something that's unfathomable. Especially since it was Tyrande's dumb ass itself that suggested Anduin the idea of sending the Night Elven army to Silithus in the first place. As for Jarod, he's been pretty much a hermit since the War of the Ancients and only ever returned from his self-exile in response to Deathwing's forces setting fiery camp right on Hyjal and the Legion returning. He has bothered participating in Horde-Alliance fights whooping zero of times. And I don't know through what mysterious leaps of logic did you get from being able to talk to trees to knowing every crevice in the entirety of Night Elven territory. Especially since Malfurion spent a great deal of those 10k years being asleep in a burrow.

As for Lordaeron, as per Saurfang's estimate when he was discussing the war plans with Sylvanas, after Legion the Horde's navy was in a slightly better shape than the Alliance 's and according to him they would have been able to defeat the Alliance one even when attacking Stormwind, despite that providing the Alliance with shoreline defenses, as well as spellcasters of all kinds supporting their navy (it's just that they wouldn't be able to transport an army large enough to besiege the city afterwards). In Lordaeron the tables were turned, meaning Horde's advantage was even larger. So Alliance shouldn't have been able to even make a landing.

Then comes the Jaina ex machina that you yourself admitted. Though the idea that the Alliance was surprised at Sylvanas using the Blight is shockingly a misrepresentation. They only expressed surprise that the Horde was using the Blight even against their own soldiers from the unsuccessful sally. I know there persists some idea that "the Alliance should have equipped themselves with protective gear!!11!", but they have never been shown to have any. Either way, even if the Alliance was surprised at the use of Blight in general, which it wasn't, the idea that it somehow counterbalances a deus ex machina makes no sense and is just yet another case of you scratching the bottom of the barrel in desperation, scraping some mold off of it and pretending you found an argument.

Then comes Anduin's initial charge into the breach where he gets stopped by the Horde force led by Baine and Nathatos. With, you guessed it, more Blight. Where the Alliance was "saved" by Alleria warping in with Mekkatorque. The thing is, they warped on top of Anduin's position, not the Blight weaponry. They did absolutely nothing to counter it or take it out. So given how the very same Blight completely fucked the Alliance just five minutes earlier and required Jaina arriving at the last second out of nowhere to save them, how exactly did Alleria's arrival change anything? It only provided more Alliance soldiers to melt.

Finally, there's Anduin and co's escape from the throne room, with Jaina shielding the squad with her Mage casting. Even though it's been long since established that neither normal magic nor even the Light do anything to defend from the Blight and that the only thing that works is Dreadlord magic. So unless Blizzard was trying to tell us something about the meme of Jaina being a Dreadlord, she pulled that shield out of her ass.

So would you look at that, four times just like I said. With honorable mention to the time where Anduin destroyed an Azerite tank that was capable of destroying the entirety of the Alliance's siege weaponry in an instant by simply smacking the top of it with his sword. The rest of it is mostly irrelevant since by that time the Alliance should have already been destroyed. The only remaining preceding bit is the part about Odyn. Where I already pointed out to you in the other thread that Odyn was a valor-obsessed lunatic who merrily offered Skovald one last chance, outside of the scope of his trials, to get his Legion-aligned hands on the Aegis, even though it would have literally doomed Azeroth as it was impossible to seal the portal at Broken Shore without all of the Pillars of Creation. Despite the fact that his very directive was defending Azeroth from such threats. But sure, he'd totally change his behavior in response to Sylvanas, because reasons.

All it says is that Sylvanas is persistent. And as I said, the Chronicle also mentions that she convinced the leaders of the Horde. This does not in any way contradict my words that Thrall personally corresponded. I understand that you want everything that happened in Wakrarft to happen at the behest of your goddess, but that is not how lore works.

I am very amused that due to the fact that you know lore 10 times worse than me, you cannot argue properly and therefore simply claim that I am talking nonsense. Please, child, do not disgrace yourself. Most of what I've listed has to do with Teldrassil. I have no idea why you are saying that the Alliance should have been destroyed in Lordaeron. The fact that Anduin, being an idiot, forgot about the existence of the Blight was good for the Horde, the arrival of Jaina was good for the Alliance, the balance was restored.


I mean, she's perfect for Sylvanas who failed to defend her own country from the Scourge invasion, then trusted Godfrey and was shot in the head, and when she defeated Andorhal, she lost one of her precious Val'kyrs. Sylvanas also personally states that if Tyrande joins Malfurion, she will not be able to defeat both of them. And yet Jarod joined the warfront in Darkshore when Teldrassil had already burned out. So is Maiev. How convenient. As I understand it, you do not know how druidism works. Malfurion did not just sleep in a hole, his spirit traveled through the Emerald Dream, and you think during this time he did not explore his lands? And as I said, he knows how to talk to trees and at the same time does not know about the fact that the Horde is going through this cave. And not only Malfurion, no one knew about her at all. And Saurfang found it accidentally. Are you really saying this isn't plot armor? Pathetic


Well, maybe Saurfang just doesn't know as much as you think? I mean, both Mathias Shaw and Nathanos stated in 8.1 that the Alliance was almost victorious so I would like to know the opinion of the leaders of the Alliance about the military situation during that time period.


Am I saying that the leaders of the Alliance should have known that Sylvanas would use the plague without taking any protection? Since the days of LK, the Alliance has not figured out how to deal with the Blight? The Forsaken running around in chemical suits, but Anduin watches in horror as everyone dies? As I said, these two facts cancel each other out. I am very amused by your hysteria, because now you are literally crying in the style YOUR ARGUMENT IT'S NOT ARGUMENT FIND SOMETHING ELSE1! 1 !!! It's even funnier than your previous statements, really



You know, I think the Alliance would not have to scream with delight that Alleria arrived through the Void portals if the Alliance were allowed to use, you know, the Vindicar, which shoots beams of Light. Perhaps this is not true and, in general, nonsense, invented by some idiots from YouTube, but I HAVE HEARED (I am not claiming that this is true) that Light is quite effective against, you know, UNDEAD. While I'm not sure if the Light can be used to dispel the rot, I think the Forsaken would be a little more difficult to defend if they were constantly being fired at with beams of Light.


Sorry what? Where was it said? Give a quote or link? Or are you embellishing again? In one of the quests, it is seen that Blight does not affect the prisoner of the Scarlet Onslaught, but it seems that he was a living person and nothing indicated that Malganis somehow bewitched or protected him. So maybe the Light protected him, huh?
And Jaina teleported them fast enough.

Will the destruction of a tank with a magic sword in Warcraft shock you? Maybe this universe is not for you? Also, I do not understand how its strength and destructive potential are related. Um, how are the situations of Skovald and Sylvanas related? Skovald did not commit a crime against Odyn personally, and after Skovald appears in front of Odyn , he almost immediately engages in a fight with the heroes. We have no idea what Odin would do if Skovald killed the heroes. But I don’t understand where people get this nonsense about what he would give to Aegis to Skovald, he never stated it, it was never said anywhere, you just pulled it out of your ass and say that it’s canon. Odyn kills the player if you just ask him about their last conversation with Loken (available for the Shadow Priest), but he does nothing to punish Sylvanas for teaming up with Helia and trying to steal Eyir without withering that he and his army are now free. Odyn was simply thrown out of the plot as well as the Vindicar so as not to interfere with the goddess doing what she wants.

- - - Updated - - -

No, but she did bring a lot of new allies to the horde with the Allied races.

People keep writing this, but I still don't understand what exactly Sylvanas did for this? Thalyssra fell in love with Lor'Themar and was offended by Tyrande, Mayla wanted to get to know the other tauren better, the Mag'hars fled from the ruined world and owed the Horde for their actions during the days of WoD (when Vol'jin was leader) and the Zandalari joined because the Alliance killed Rastakhan.

[Maxilian]

People keep writing this, but I still don't understand what exactly Sylvanas did for this? Thalyssra fell in love with Lor'Themar and was offended by Tyrande, Mayla wanted to get to know the other tauren better, the Mag'hars fled from the ruined world and owed the Horde for their actions during the days of WoD (when Vol'jin was leader) and the Zandalari joined because the Alliance killed Rastakhan.

Every race have their own reason to join, but it was on Sylvanas initiative that we looked for some other races option, though she was not the one who "recommended" those, and in the case of Zandalari, it was a more direct approach on her end with all the missions of rescuing Talanji and stuff.

Still is not much, but hey, its something

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You shoot up. It has to do with the initial velocity. If you can walk 10 kilometers along. You can aim higher and reach 3 Kilometers.

Lobos and Kultiras left in time of Peace not time of war and by the way the rules of the Alliance clearly change according to what the Script wants.
So let's say the Kaldorei leave and the wolves and Dranei have to leave because they live on their lands. All because the Alliance refused to defend them. We have 3 races left that do not know whether or not they can trust the alliance to defend them.

catapults don't have unlimited range we have no idea how high thunderbluff is or rather they could be able to hit it from any distance let alone the fact that they would be totally exposed on the open plains.

Kultiras left after the alliance wouldn't help them hunt down thrall it wasn't a time of peace.

and if the night elf's want ti give the wolfs and goats an ultimatum they are free to tell them to sod off and stick to there best interest.

[geco]

catapults don't have unlimited range we have no idea how high thunderbluff is or rather they could be able to hit it from any distance let alone the fact that they would be totally exposed on the open plains.

So the catapults have infinite range but have a high limit? Where do you get that from?
I know that in real life it is not like that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So the catapults have infinite range but have a high limit? Where do you get that from?
I know that in real life it is not like that.

Or you know they have neither and being able to hit the base of a far target doesn't mean you can hit the top of another.

[Darkeon]

She was a good warchief in the way that the Warchief position has merely been used to further the plot, especially that of the Alliance, forward, by continuously making glaring mistakes and betraying their own people so that Alliance writers and players can have their feel-good about it when talking to the type of Horde player that likes Baine.

[Jastall]

Every race have their own reason to join, but it was on Sylvanas initiative that we looked for some other races option, though she was not the one who "recommended" those, and in the case of Zandalari, it was a more direct approach on her end with all the missions of rescuing Talanji and stuff.

Still is not much, but hey, its something

The thing is, again, with her revealed motivations recruiting the ARs probably didn't have the goal of strengthening the Horde but just of throwing more bodies into the Maw. The end result might have helped the Horde longer term but that wasn't her goal and that's what we're judging.

[Amathricus]

So, I argue with fanboy of Sylvanas and he proves to me that she is the best warchief, so I decided to find out what the Horde players think about it. Do you think Sylvanas was actually a good warchief for the Horde? We will not discuss her personality, whether she was good or evil, or what she thought of the Horde and that she actually worked for the Jailer. It's just that, looking at her ACTIONS, you would say that she has done much more good for the Horde than harm and has she accomplished more for the Horde than the previous leaders?

Sylvanas is my absolute favourite character in all of WoW. A good Warchief? I'm not sure I can say yes. She divided the Horde too much. Much like Garrosh, she had her own goals to focus on. I do not doubt The Horde was a major concern of hers. And in past expansions she's proven that she will fight tooth and nail to protect it. But she also wouldn't hesitate to use the Horde to further her own personal means to an end if need be. As a racial leader, she had others holding her in check (we see that during the Siege of Org when she's wanted to raise our own dead troops, but Lor'themar is like "don't you dare!" but in the opening siege of BFA... well, she's the boss, so she does just that. After killing many herself). When BFA started she seemed to have some great things planned. A plan to cripple The Alliance to ensure The Horde being prosperous for decades to come. But that took a turn and here we are.

In my opinion, Thrall was a good Warfchief. He worked for peace, he knew that War didn't need to be a focus, he merely wanted a place for the members of The Horde, outcasts all, to thrive away from the others. Vol'jin as well. His goals were the same as Thralls for the most part. Garrosh was a warmonger, focusing on conquering with blind rage, ignoring other leaders wishes, council and needs. And even attempting to murder a couple (novels I realize :P). For the Old Horde he could have been a fantastic Warchief. Conquest was their focus. Thrall's Horde wasn't meant for that, so he didn't fit that version of Warchief.

Just my thoughts

[geco]

Or you know they have neither and being able to hit the base of a far target doesn't mean you can hit the top of another.

I said I was going to go as far as high?