Alec Baldwin fires prop gun on movie set, killing cinematographer

[Shadowferal]

Baldwin also deserves credit blame for the crime. Even if he had 20 different people responsible for ensuring the gun was safe, he was the one that would be pulling the trigger.

Just had to correct the word usage...

[Gabriel]

Baldwin also deserves credit for the crime. Even if he had 20 different people responsible for ensuring the gun was safe, he was the one that would be pulling the trigger.

Shut up.

Just like I'm not responsible for disassembling every cartridge I intend of firing from my gun, and weighing the amount of propellant to avoid firing an overcharged cartridge that might blow up my gun and make me lose fingers and/or my eyesight, an actor is not responsible for checking the gun that THE PERSON HIRED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING SURE IS SAFE has already checked.

Fucking pilots are not required to crawl through the engine space of their planes before each and every flight to make sure everything is working, because it is not their job.

I get it. I get the three rules for safe firearm handling. I've gone through the training to be a Range Safety Officer so I can be in charge of a group when they are using the firing range. I teach the rules to new gun users all the time. And you know what? If something happens on the range when I'm the one in charge at that time, it is my ass is on the line.

[Grinning Serpent]

Shut up.

Just like I'm not responsible for disassembling every cartridge I intend of firing from my gun, and weighing the amount of propellant to avoid firing an overcharged cartridge that might blow up my gun and make me lose fingers and/or my eyesight, an actor is not responsible for checking the gun that THE PERSON HIRED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING SURE IS SAFE has already checked.

Fucking pilots are not required to crawl through the engine space of their planes before each and every flight to make sure everything is working, because it is not their job.

I get it. I get the three rules for safe firearm handling. I've gone through the training to be a Range Safety Officer so I can be in charge of a group when they are using the firing range. I teach the rules to new gun users all the time. And you know what? If something happens on the range when I'm the one in charge at that time, it is my ass is on the line.

I'm not buying it. If some random schmuck at the range did something that killed another person, unintentionally, you can bet your fucking ass they'd be brought up on charges. Up to a jury whether or not they stick, but they would absolutely be charged, because unintentionally killing another person is a felony in every jurisdiction I can think of.

Baldwin pulled the trigger. He's responsible for killing another person, unintentionally. Which is a felony. "My armorer said it was safe!" isn't an excuse for killing someone. Guns aren't complicated, check the damn thing yourself.

[Ghost of Cow]

Guns aren't complicated, check the damn thing yourself.

And for the millionth time, that's literally the opposite of what you want the layperson doing when a professional is already involved in the process.

What you're advocating for would cause more accidents, not fewer.

[Canpinter]

I'm not buying it. If some random schmuck at the range did something that killed another person, unintentionally, you can bet your fucking ass they'd be brought up on charges. Up to a jury whether or not they stick, but they would absolutely be charged, because unintentionally killing another person is a felony in every jurisdiction I can think of.

Baldwin pulled the trigger. He's responsible for killing another person, unintentionally. Which is a felony. "My armorer said it was safe!" isn't an excuse for killing someone. Guns aren't complicated, check the damn thing yourself.

If it hard been a stunt car that's breaks failed and crashed into someone would you blame the actor driving it or the expert hired to build, maintain and ensure the stunt was safe?

[s_bushido]

I'm not buying it. If some random schmuck at the range did something that killed another person, unintentionally, you can bet your fucking ass they'd be brought up on charges.

Arizona incident:

No criminal charges in fatal gun range shooting by 9-year-old girl

Florida incident:

Sarasota County Sheriff's officials are calling the shooting was accidental. As of Monday, no charges were planned.

The first two results I found when searching for fatal shooting range accidents that had more than "it's under investigation"...

But please, do continue talking out of your ass.

[Milchshake]

I see the problem here.

People that spend too much time at gun ranges, think those 10 rules are actual laws.
People that spend too much time at gun ranges, also exposed to much more lead residues than your average person.

[Gabriel]

I'm not buying it. If some random schmuck at the range did something that killed another person, unintentionally, you can bet your fucking ass they'd be brought up on charges. Up to a jury whether or not they stick, but they would absolutely be charged, because unintentionally killing another person is a felony in every jurisdiction I can think of.

Baldwin pulled the trigger. He's responsible for killing another person, unintentionally. Which is a felony. "My armorer said it was safe!" isn't an excuse for killing someone. Guns aren't complicated, check the damn thing yourself.

So if you have an elderly family member or someone else that is dependent on you picking up their medication for them and giving them the daily dose, and the pharmacist gives you glucose pills instead of their prescribed diabetes medication, and you give it to your family member that dies as a result, are you responsible for murdering them?

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I see the problem here.

People that spend too much time at gun ranges, think those 10 rules are actual laws.
People that spend too much time at gun ranges, also exposed to much more lead residues than your average person.

tfw I learned the sweet taste in your mouth at indoor gun range is lead acetate dust in the air.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I'm not buying it. If some random schmuck at the range did something that killed another person, unintentionally, you can bet your fucking ass they'd be brought up on charges. Up to a jury whether or not they stick, but they would absolutely be charged, because unintentionally killing another person is a felony in every jurisdiction I can think of.

Baldwin pulled the trigger. He's responsible for killing another person, unintentionally. Which is a felony. "My armorer said it was safe!" isn't an excuse for killing someone. Guns aren't complicated, check the damn thing yourself.

The issue, which has been explained, is that the gun was actually supposed to be loaded. It was supposed to be loaded with dummy rounds though...which are, by design, virtually indistinguishable from actual bullets. The armourer is the one that is supposed to load the gun...the actors, or anyone else, aren't supposed to fiddle fuck with the ammunition in the gun at all. The actor can request to be present when the armourer checks and loads the dummy rounds... but that is not required.

Live ammunition isn't supposed to be anywhere near the set.

now, if you think Baldwin should be held accountable because he's a producer on a film set that failed to follow the proper safety protocols...I'd actually agree with you.

[Kaleredar]

I'm not buying it. If some random schmuck at the range did something that killed another person, unintentionally, you can bet your fucking ass they'd be brought up on charges. Up to a jury whether or not they stick, but they would absolutely be charged, because unintentionally killing another person is a felony in every jurisdiction I can think of.

Baldwin pulled the trigger. He's responsible for killing another person, unintentionally. Which is a felony. "My armorer said it was safe!" isn't an excuse for killing someone. Guns aren't complicated, check the damn thing yourself.

Let's say Baldwin leans on a piece of the set that turns out to be built unsoundly and it falls over and kills someone.

Was Baldwin at fault for not checking the construction of the set before leaning on it?

No? Then why is a gun any different? Firearm safety procedure is clearly defined in film production, and those procedures were not followed at a level above Baldwin's head. Those safety procedures do not, and have no reason, to follow the "10 handy gun safety tips" placard on the wall of a gun range somewhere.

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now, if you think Baldwin should be held accountable because he's a producer on a film set that failed to follow the proper safety protocols...I'd actually agree with you.

That's generally not the issue people bring up, because most of these complaints about Baldwin's conduct are politically tinted.

Baldwin = liberal who said mean things about Trump
Liberals = don't like or know about guns
Conservatives = know about and like guns, like Trump
Baldwin = wrong about guns, therefore liberals wrong, therefore conservatives were right, therefore... Trump right?

That's the basic gist I'm getting.

But bringing up the roles of a producer and hiring practicies in Hollywood? How are you supposed to get the knee-jerk political people outraged about that?

[Forogil]

The issue, which has been explained, is that the gun was actually supposed to be loaded. It was supposed to be loaded with dummy rounds though...which are, by design, virtually indistinguishable from actual bullets.

That may have been explained multiple times by some, but it isn't consistent with the facts.

It was announced as a "cold gun" (by David Halls - not the armorer; who have pleaded guilty for negligent use of firearms), and there are conflicting accounts of what that means: was it unloaded or loaded with blanks? It seems most on the scene viewed it as being completely safe and not loaded with blanks, as people weren't wearing ear and eye protections as they were just supposed to rehearse the scene and Baldwin wasn't supposed to pull the trigger (why load with blanks for that?). That it was a rehearsal also explains why we don't have film evidence of what happened (d'uh).

Communication is always important, and announcing that a gun is "cold" meaning it isn't loaded with live rounds during a filming, and not clarifying whether it is empty or loaded with blanks when you are not supposed to have live rounds at all just seem like bad communication.

So, why did they use an actual gun in that case, and why did Baldwin pull the trigger (yes, I know he claims otherwise - despite the evidence) even though he shouldn't shoot it? The simple explanation is that he wanted to feel like a manly man, quoting him: "I'm an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume – my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay – is all right at my fingertips at all time"

The armourer is the one that is supposed to load the gun...the actors, or anyone else, aren't supposed to fiddle fuck with the ammunition in the gun at all. The actor can request to be present when the armourer checks and loads the dummy rounds... but that is not required.

And the actors are supposed to listen to the safety briefs, not be on the phone during them (as Baldwin allegedly was).

now, if you think Baldwin should be held accountable because he's a producer on a film set that failed to follow the proper safety protocols...I'd actually agree with you.

The fact that he was both producer and actor also blurred the lines. If the armorer felt that the actor Baldwin was out of line in not following safety briefs, do you think it would help if she complained to the producer, Baldwin?

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That's generally not the issue people bring up, because most of these complaints about Baldwin's conduct are politically tinted.

Baldwin = liberal who said mean things about Trump
Liberals = don't like or know about guns
Conservatives = know about and like guns, like Trump
Baldwin = wrong about guns, therefore liberals wrong, therefore conservatives were right, therefore... Trump right?

In the US.

But outside some of just think that Trump and Baldwin are both old, overconfident Americans, and still wonder about the fascination with guns, guns, guns.

[Gabriel]

That may have been explained multiple times by some, but it isn't consistent with the facts.

It was announced as a "cold gun" (by David Halls - not the armorer; who have pleaded guilty for negligent use of firearms), and there are conflicting accounts of what that means: was it unloaded or loaded with blanks? It seems most on the scene viewed it as being completely safe and not loaded with blanks, as people weren't wearing ear and eye protections as they were just supposed to rehearse the scene and Baldwin wasn't supposed to pull the trigger (why load with blanks for that?). That it was a rehearsal also explains why we don't have film evidence of what happened (d'uh).

Communication is always important, and announcing that a gun is "cold" meaning it isn't loaded with live rounds during a filming, and not clarifying whether it is empty or loaded with blanks when you are not supposed to have live rounds at all just seem like bad communication.

So, why did they use an actual gun in that case, and why did Baldwin pull the trigger (yes, I know he claims otherwise - despite the evidence) even though he shouldn't shoot it? The simple explanation is that he wanted to feel like a manly man, quoting him: "I'm an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume – my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay – is all right at my fingertips at all time"


And the actors are supposed to listen to the safety briefs, not be on the phone during them (as Baldwin allegedly was).


The fact that he was both producer and actor also blurred the lines. If the armorer felt that the actor Baldwin was out of line in not following safety briefs, do you think it would help if she complained to the producer, Baldwin?

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In the US.

But outside some of just think that Trump and Baldwin are both old, overconfident Americans, and still wonder about the fascination with guns, guns, guns.

Any "conflicting accounts" of whether a cold gun means no rounds at all or no live rounds but maybe blanks are manufactured time wasters. A cold gun won't go bang even if you pull the trigger. Yes, blanks go bang.

If the armorer intentionally loaded the gun with blanks (that turned out to be live rounds) for rehearsal and just expected the actor not to pull the trigger, she should get the death penalty for being so fucking inept.

If the armorer thought that Baldwin the actor was out of line with his behavior, she should have created a paper trail that indicates she brought this issue to Baldwin the producer and other producers, BECAUSE SHE IS THE ONE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR GUN SAFETY ON THE SET.

It is infinitely more preferable to get fired for bringing up negligence on the part of producers, than to not do your job as the person responsible for people's safety.

If the armorer felt that Baldwin the actor and Baldwin the producer made it impossible for her to do her job properly, AND she chose to not make a fuss about it to protect her career, she is responsible for the person that died.

Baldwin should be charged in his capacity as a producer, but not in his capacity as an actor.

[Forogil]

Any "conflicting accounts" of whether a cold gun means no rounds at all or no live rounds but maybe blanks are manufactured time wasters. A cold gun won't go bang even if you pull the trigger. Yes, blanks go bang.

Good that we agree, and you completely disagree with the statement that I was refuting: "It was supposed to be loaded with dummy rounds though...which are, by design, virtually indistinguishable from actual bullets."

If the armorer thought that Baldwin the actor was out of line with his behavior, she should have created a paper trail that indicates she brought this issue to Baldwin the producer and other producers, BECAUSE SHE IS THE ONE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR GUN SAFETY ON THE SET.

Well, she doesn't seem like the best one - so she might have missed this, or maybe she has such a paper trail but it hasn't been leaked. I don't know.

[Grinning Serpent]

In the US.

But outside some of just think that Trump and Baldwin are both old, overconfident Americans, and still wonder about the fascination with guns, guns, guns.

Guns are fun to use, marksmanship is a very enjoyable hobby that almost anyone can get into, and there's a fair bit of interesting engineering that goes into the development and creation of guns (watch Forgotten Weapons sometime, it's a good channel.) The way that some folks fetishize or obsess over guns, though? That's just our country's nutty gun culture at work. 20+ years of the GOP and gun manufacturers being in bed with each other and tuning advertising to suit the needs of both.

[Nastard]

Guns aren't complicated, check the damn thing yourself.

If an actor checks a gun loaded with blanks it can compromise the blank. Then they'd need to reload the blank. Then he'd need to check it again. Then they'd need to reload it. See there this is going yet? It's better to hire competent people for the task. If Alec is liable for anything it's that he didn't ensure that. But I sure as hell wouldn't want an actor responsible for ensuring the brakes are properly functional on a stunt car, to see if the explosives are rigged correctly, to make sure the zipline has the right weight capacity, to act as an armorer, or any of the other many safety concerns on set. So why do you? They hire people specifically for that.

[Jotaux]

If I’m on a set, the last thing I want is someone other than the armorer tampering with the gun.

[GreenJesus]

I will say it again. Just use a nerf gun or finger pistol and then use CGI. This is 2023 and we have technology. If you can't act shooting someone without it actually firing (with blanks) then maybe you shouldn't be getting paid millions as an actor. There shouldn't even need to be an armorer. In no situation whatsoever should it be possible for a weapon that could shoot projectile ever be aimed at another person.

[Kumorii]

I will say it again. Just use a nerf gun or finger pistol and then use CGI. This is 2023 and we have technology. If you can't act shooting someone without it actually firing (with blanks) then maybe you shouldn't be getting paid millions as an actor. There shouldn't even need to be an armorer. In no situation whatsoever should it be possible for a weapon that could shoot projectile ever be aimed at another person.

I second this. I don't understand the need to use real guns on set or filming.
Muzzle flashes still done in post anyway, same with bullet holes.
Gunshot sound is also applied in post.

[Daedius]

Baldwin also deserves credit for the crime. Even if he had 20 different people responsible for ensuring the gun was safe, he was the one that would be pulling the trigger.

Would you also blame drivers for a car malfunction at the fault of the manufacturer's, such as Toyota cars that killed people in the late 2000s speeding out of control? Or the pilots of the crashed Boeing 737 Max's? Cause that's what you're saying...

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

It was announced as a "cold gun" (by David Halls - not the armorer; who have pleaded guilty for negligent use of firearms), and there are conflicting accounts of what that means: was it unloaded or loaded with blanks? It seems most on the scene viewed it as being completely safe and not loaded with blanks, as people weren't wearing ear and eye protections as they were just supposed to rehearse the scene and Baldwin wasn't supposed to pull the trigger (why load with blanks for that?). That it was a rehearsal also explains why we don't have film evidence of what happened (d'uh).

It wasn't supposed to be loaded with Blanks...it was supposed to be loaded with Dummy Rounds. These are different terms for different things. A blank provides the flash and the sound of a gun going off...but no bullet. A dummy Round is just meant to look like a real bullet...but it's had all the powder and primer removed...rendering it inert.

Communication is always important, and announcing that a gun is "cold" meaning it isn't loaded with live rounds during a filming, and not clarifying whether it is empty or loaded with blanks when you are not supposed to have live rounds at all just seem like bad communication.

"Cold gun" means "there are no live rounds in the gun". That's a pretty clear communication. And even if it weren't clear...that's a criticism to make with the way the Film Industry handles firearms...not Alec Baldwin.

So, why did they use an actual gun in that case, and why did Baldwin pull the trigger (yes, I know he claims otherwise - despite the evidence) even though he shouldn't shoot it? The simple explanation is that he wanted to feel like a manly man, quoting him: "I'm an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume – my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay – is all right at my fingertips at all time"

Again, you would need to take that up with the film industry in general or perhaps specifically the director.

And the actors are supposed to listen to the safety briefs, not be on the phone during them (as Baldwin allegedly was).

Ok, but whether or not he was listening to the security briefings...that wasn't what put a live round in the gun.

The fact that he was both producer and actor also blurred the lines. If the armorer felt that the actor Baldwin was out of line in not following safety briefs, do you think it would help if she complained to the producer, Baldwin?

Alec Baldwin isn't the only producer and he wouldn't have been her immediate supervisor.