we should not accept chore content without alternatives

[NineSpine]

What would you rather the "endgame content" be if not raids, M+, and PVP? World of Pokecraft? Grinding non-challenging world quests (which is all of them)? Oh, high-end transmog collecting? Currently, there are multiple different activities that the general population would consider end game. What you are asking for is the removal of those things from "end game" because some people don't like doing those activities. Why should blizzard cater to them over the people who do those things AND raid/pvp/run keys?

lolwat. I just want them to bring back the ability to play the game without having to do M+, rated BGs, or heroic/mythic raids. As it stands, the way the endgame is constructed means that if you don't want to do those three activities the endgame is over for you in about a week, at which point you overgear all the content. I used to be able to spend lots of time on tradeskills and dailies, now those systems are totally trashed in favor of worthless tradeskills and the awful world quest system that tells me what reputations I am allowed to work on every day.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Raids and M+ with no timer, I would love M+ if it didn't have a timer Id be more than happy playing Retail again.

M+ with no timer would be so god awful boring and a surefire way to alienate another group of WoW's player base from the game. Perhaps you should still stay away from retail WoW.

[Twdft]

lolwat. I just want them to bring back the ability to play the game without having to do M+, rated BGs, or heroic/mythic raids. As it stands, the way the endgame is constructed means that if you don't want to do those three activities the endgame is over for you in about a week, at which point you overgear all the content. I used to be able to spend lots of time on tradeskills and dailies, now those systems are totally trashed in favor of worthless tradeskills and the awful world quest system that tells me what reputations I am allowed to work on every day.

I don't think you'll be rank 6 archivist in a week. This is the current non-group content allowing you to upgrade your stuff to 233. Which of course outgears all solo content, but then again you pretty much outgear solo content by dinging 60 in heirlooms.

[schwank05]

You can already ignore the timer if you want. Let one of your friends push their key to say 17 then your group can play a 17, a 16, a 15 and a 14 in your own speed without a care in the world for two vault options.

That isn't what I meant I want to M+ to be continuous challenging content just as it is now but don't want to be forced to kite mobs as a tank I want to tank the mobs, I want to DPS as a DPS and Heal as a Healer. Just increase Damage/HP of Mobs add a few special moves and increase loot level with each "Key" increase. But none of this works unless bosses actually drop loot as they are supposed to the whole personal loot BS needs to die. I don't want to run a dungeon and have 1 piece of loot drop out of a chest at the end for 5 people I want to see each boss drop a piece like they did when the game was good.

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M+ with no timer would be so god awful boring and a surefire way to alienate another group of WoW's player base from the game. Perhaps you should still stay away from retail WoW.

Exactly my thoughts since MOP and the introduction of Flex. They already alienated a huge majority of the player base with all the changes since MOP and most of us will never be able to come back. But good thing there is Classic servers so we can enjoy the game when we actually enjoyed playing it.

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The meta would be 1 pull every 10 minutes while people wait for Bloodlust.

I have never been one to stick to the "Meta". I play in a guild and only run content with guildies, If I cannot talk with people in voice chat of some sort I don't play the game.

[NineSpine]

I don't think you'll be rank 6 archivist in a week. This is the current non-group content allowing you to upgrade your stuff to 233. Which of course outgears all solo content, but then again you pretty much outgear solo content by dinging 60 in heirlooms.

I didn’t say anything about solo content. I want to gear up with battlegrounds and dungeons like I used to be able to, and yes that can supplemented with trade skills and word content, but the fact that they took away non-M+ dungeons and took away random BGs as viable endgame content has ruined the game for a substantial number of people.

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M+ with no timer would be so god awful boring and a surefire way to alienate another group of WoW's player base from the game. Perhaps you should still stay away from retail WoW.

Because the game has been doing so well since they made the pve endgame all about M+.

[Relapses]

I have never been one to stick to the "Meta". I play in a guild and only run content with guildies, If I cannot talk with people in voice chat of some sort I don't play the game.

That's cool. But the game isn't designed around what you and your guildies are going to do. The timer exists to prevent cheesy shit like I mentioned; you may not adhere to it, but others will and it'll make the game far less interesting as a result.

[Tyris Flare]

The PvE endgame is all about m+, except for the fact you can't get dom shards or sockets or 255 gear out of it. Makes sense

(thankfully, this seems to be getting corrected with sets)

[chiddie]

The meta would be 1 pull every 10 minutes while people wait for Bloodlust.

You are all saying this since forever but we have no proof of it.

I don’t recall always waiting for BL when timers weren’t a thing (and I’ve been shaman since forever).

Don’t care anymore because this game is beyond salvation and I am more than happy to have gotten back to D3 8 months ago, but timers are a huge detriment for AL LOT of players.

[cparle87]

It's not as simple as "dont do it" when Blizzard insists on centering the endgame around challenging content to the point where all other play styles are functionally removed.

You can get your max level legendary and gear higher than the normal raid from outdoor content. What really are you expecting? I'd say that's more than generous enough for people whose endgame involves nothing group related. Your entire argument that Blizzard is somehow insisting on raiding or die and other playstyles are removed is completely wrong.

[Relapses]

You are all saying this since forever but we have no proof of it.

Because there hasn't been actual difficult 5M content without a timer? If you don't think that the meta would immediately shift to waiting for cooldowns if there weren't a timer you're in a fantasy world. I know it's cute to reminisce about the days of yore when you'd CC every mob in Magister's Terrace but that meta isn't coming back.

[chiddie]

You can get your max level legendary and gear higher than the normal raid from outdoor content. What really are you expecting? I'd say that's more than generous enough for people whose endgame involves nothing group related. Your entire argument that Blizzard is somehow insisting on raiding or die and other playstyles are removed is completely wrong.

Yes and no.

Some legendaries and other stuff like shards require raiding (LFR is enough but indeed). But apart from this, gearing without doing M+/raid/ratedPvP is extremely long and boring and with zero challenges. You are only left with WQ and doing dailies at Korthia. WQ max ilvl is ridiculous and upgrading Korthian gear takes forever.

Indeed I fully understand that this is not an arpg, my suggestion to NineSpine is to accept that WoW will never reward solo activities, just live with it or leave it. I left in May for D3 after years of pause and I’ve never been happier. I can progress at my pace doing what I want when I want and no one cares about the gear I have and how I obtained it because differently from WoW the purpose of the game is not worrying about what others can get doing what. You push for the sake of pushing, not for the gear. There are achievements and ladders to prove how pro you are, no one cares if a non laddered dude has even better gear than a laddered dude.

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Because there hasn't been actual difficult 5M content without a timer? If you don't think that the meta would immediately shift to waiting for cooldowns if there weren't a timer you're in a fantasy world. I know it's cute to reminisce about the days of yore when you'd CC every mob in Magister's Terrace but that meta isn't coming back.

There has been. Not at +15 level probably, but hard dungeons were quite hard and I don’t recall people being happy to spend 1 hour instead of 30 minutes just to wait for CDs. Of course if you were in a situation “hey let’s wait ONE minute for BL before the boss” you would wait, but you’re talking about constantly waiting for a 10 mins CD to most of a dungeon, no one would do that because it’s zero fun and time is precious for everyone.

It’s incedibile how timers are perceived depending on how they are implemented. I have no issues in D3 GRs having a timer, while I hate timers on M+.

[Relapses]

There has been. Not at +15 level probably, but hard dungeons were quite hard and I don’t recall people being happy to spend 1 hour instead of 30 minutes just to wait for CDs. Of course if you were in a situation “hey let’s wait ONE minute for BL before the boss” you would wait, but you’re talking about constantly waiting for a 10 mins CD to most of a dungeon, no one would do that because it’s zero fun and time is precious for everyone.

It’s incedibile how timers are perceived depending on how they are implemented. I have no issues in D3 GRs having a timer, while I hate timers on M+.

If it's infinitely scalable content like M+, then the timer is 100% a necessity. At some point the benefit of waiting for cooldowns outweighs any potential challenge the dungeon could throw at players. The only way to curtail this would be to make every dungeon a Mount Hyjal-esque trash gauntlet fiesta. Considering how Hyjal is perceived in retrospect I'd say this is not something most people would enjoy.

[chiddie]

If it's infinitely scalable content like M+, then the timer is 100% a necessity. At some point the benefit of waiting for cooldowns outweighs any potential challenge the dungeon could throw at players. The only way to curtail this would be to make every dungeon a Mount Hyjal-esque trash gauntlet fiesta. Considering how Hyjal is perceived in retrospect I'd say this is not something most people would enjoy.

It all depends on where’s that point. Rewards wise +15 is the limit, if someone wanna take 3 hours to complete a +30 just let them be, they won’t harm you.

Main issue of mmorpgs is that no one plays for fun, they play ONLY for the rewards tied to the content and worry ONLY about people not doing that content to not receive similar rewards.

If max level gear would come at +5, almost no one would go past that because they don’t find M+ fun but they do them nonetheless for the rewards.

In D3 everyone tries to push to GR150 even if rewards wise its useless to go past 100, I’m guessing why

Just stop caring about what others do and get to have their fun. They won’t spoil your fun unless your fun only comes in seeing you in Gold Cloth and the others dressed in Bronze.

[Wuusah]

It all depends on where’s that point. Rewards wise +15 is the limit, if someone wanna take 3 hours to complete a +30 just let them be, they won’t harm you.

People who want to challenge themselves would have to do that cheese stuff because others would do it. There is harm. And there is no harm for you in there being a timer. In lower content that timer is basically nonexistent. In higher content, if you don’t beat the timer then you still get the good loot from that key and it counts for your vault.

Main issue of mmorpgs is that no one plays for fun, they play ONLY for the rewards tied to the content and worry ONLY about people not doing that content to not receive similar rewards.

If max level gear would come at +5, almost no one would go past that because they don’t find M+ fun but they do them nonetheless for the rewards.

Main issue of human psychology is human psychology? How many people do you think would be raiding heroic and mythic if the ilvl wouldn’t go higher after normal difficulty?

The biggest issue people have with the timer is that it rewards performance and they cannot perform. That’s what it boils down to. Back in the days you could do a few easy heroics and then buy yourself good gear. Nowadays you have to do something somewhat challenging to get that gear and that’s why people complain.

[cparle87]

Yes and no.

Some legendaries and other stuff like shards require raiding (LFR is enough but indeed). But apart from this, gearing without doing M+/raid/ratedPvP is extremely long and boring and with zero challenges. You are only left with WQ and doing dailies at Korthia. WQ max ilvl is ridiculous and upgrading Korthian gear takes forever.

Indeed I fully understand that this is not an arpg, my suggestion to NineSpine is to accept that WoW will never reward solo activities, just live with it or leave it. I left in May for D3 after years of pause and I’ve never been happier. I can progress at my pace doing what I want when I want and no one cares about the gear I have and how I obtained it because differently from WoW the purpose of the game is not worrying about what others can get doing what. You push for the sake of pushing, not for the gear. There are achievements and ladders to prove how pro you are, no one cares if a non laddered dude has even better gear than a laddered dude.

No legendaries require raiding. You get 4 of your 6 anima conductor beams maxed, which takes less than a week and you buy the memories with grateful offerings until you get them all. That's been a thing since launch. Then you can max them out by running Torghast on whatever layer you're comfortable with until it's done.

"WoW will never reward solo activities." I cannot disagree more. You can get your 262 leggo, a full set of 230 gear, and 252 conduits without ever grouping with another person. WoW has literally never been more solo friendly.

[chiddie]

People who want to challenge themselves would have to do that cheese stuff because others would do it. There is harm. And there is no harm for you in there being a timer. In lower content that timer is basically nonexistent. In higher content, if you don’t beat the timer then you still get the good loot from that key and it counts for your vault.




Main issue of human psychology is human psychology? How many people do you think would be raiding heroic and mythic if the ilvl wouldn’t go higher after normal difficulty?

The biggest issue people have with the timer is that it rewards performance and they cannot perform. That’s what it boils down to. Back in the days you could do a few easy heroics and then buy yourself good gear. Nowadays you have to do something somewhat challenging to get that gear and that’s why people complain.

The problem is that it’s not you vs the timer. It’s you plus other 4 unknown dudes vs the timer.

This leads to unknown dudes leaving if they see timer cannot be beaten and you are left without nothing but having wasted 1 hour between queue and doing a part of the dungeon.

The biggest issue that people have against timer is that no one cares to complete the dungeon when they see it won’t be in par. And on top of that they will start to insult each other because of that.

And why would people that want to challenge themselves do a 3 hours run waiting for BL to be available? I don’t get it.

[deenman]

I didn’t say anything about solo content. I want to gear up with battlegrounds and dungeons like I used to be able to, and yes that can supplemented with trade skills and word content, but the fact that they took away non-M+ dungeons and took away random BGs as viable endgame content has ruined the game for a substantial number of people.

do bg's not give gear?and i simply cant grasp how anyone actualy is against m+ and preferes ''old'' dungeons,when those still exist,you still have normal dungeons,heroic and 0,you didnt lose anything....you gained so much more....something tells me you just miss the ''good ol days'' of wrath where you could faceroll your way to the best pre raid gear with zero effort

[chiddie]

No legendaries require raiding. You get 4 of your 6 anima conductor beams maxed, which takes less than a week and you buy the memories with grateful offerings until you get them all. That's been a thing since launch. Then you can max them out by running Torghast on whatever layer you're comfortable with until it's done.

"WoW will never reward solo activities." I cannot disagree more. You can get your 262 leggo, a full set of 230 gear, and 252 conduits without ever grouping with another person. WoW has literally never been more solo friendly.

Yes, you can get that stuff, that’s about 30 ilvl below max and taking something like 10x more time than a dude that can spam M+, not counting the boredom you have to bear to get that 230 ilvl set.

You can choose to do group content and pray or you can choose to do solo content and die of boredom enjoying an ultra slow progression that will be reset the second you are done in order for the wheel to continue running.

I fully understand that this is what mmorpgs are, that’s why I quit. I find sp games with optional partying way more stimulating. And they don’t even require a monthly subscription.

[Wuusah]

The problem is that it’s not you vs the timer. It’s you plus other 4 unknown dudes vs the timer.

This leads to unknown dudes leaving if they see timer cannot be beaten and you are left without nothing but having wasted 1 hour between queue and doing a part of the dungeon.

The biggest issue that people have against timer is that no one cares to complete the dungeon when they see it won’t be in par. And on top of that they will start to insult each other because of that.

And why would people that want to challenge themselves do a 3 hours run waiting for BL to be available? I don’t get it.

If only there was a way to play with people you know, like a guild…

[chiddie]

do bg's not give gear?and i simply cant grasp how anyone actualy is against m+ and preferes ''old'' dungeons,when those still exist,you still have normal dungeons,heroic and 0,you didnt lose anything....you gained so much more....something tells me you just miss the ''good ol days'' of wrath where you could faceroll your way to the best pre raid gear with zero effort

Random bgs give gear I think, but the ilvl is probably embarrassing. Again I would have zero issues with this IF random BGs ilvl would be capped so that you can’t be perma face rolled by players running around with a BFG9000 while you are hiding with your light gun.

It would be somehow even fine IF every activity would be “boom I’m in”, waiting 20 minutes for a random bg to get perma fragged is not fun. Same applies for M+.