You decide: New class, Class skins, 4th specs, or New combos

[FossilFree]

There's been a lot of debate about different possibilities for new class-based content, but I don't think anyone has taken the pulse of the community on which is the most popular.

New class: Speaks for itself. Examples include bards, tinkers, necromancers, etc.

Class skins: Change ability animations, icons, and names, but keep the underlying mechanics. This could be either a full class reskin or individual specs. Examples would be an undeath reskin for warlocks, including undead pets, Void Knight shadow skin for paladins, or a holy skin for shadow priests.

4th specs: Add another spec to each class, including druids and demon hunters. This would allow some concepts that might not have enough meat on the bone to become a new class to be added as a new spec instead. Examples are things like a fire spec for death knights, an earth spec for shamans, or a blademaster spec for rogues.

New combos: This would open up new race/class combinations where they make sense, or even possibly removing the restrictions entirely. Examples would be a Night Elf paladin, Pandaren druid, or Tauren mage.

Other: Anything else you can come up with. Describe your idea in the thread. Examples would be things like dual classing, a jobs system, or spec overhauls (e.g. survival going back to ranged).

None: If you don't like any of these ideas or just think we have enough already.

[jellmoo]

Class Skins for sure. This game would get more benefit from having greater customization options without taking a hit to the ever nebulous balance. Plus, having the ability to add multiple character archetypes for players to use within a single expansion is a big win.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Other. Revamp the existing classes. Diversify the mechanics in ways other than just "My buff window looks like an icy body part while your's is a screaming face." Give classes another 1-2 core skills across the board that play directly into these more diverse mechanics.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It's been 11 years since Sunwalker paladins were introduced and we are still using Light themed abilities.

Sunwalkers do not worship the Light! We are sun druids/shamans! We wield the power of the sun and fire and the spirits!

And don't shove our one and only major NPC into a Church!

[StillMcfuu]

Class skins or 4th spec.

I love the concept of class skins and would love to see them in the game, even just for the new class quest to do to unlock them and potential special quests for them.

I'd also like to see 4th specs. Shadow Hunter for Shaman, Dark Ranger for Rogue, Spell Breaker for Warriors, etc...

[Kumorii]

New Class for me.

[Teriz]

New classes. Some class concepts simply cannot be brought to fruition with class skins.

[Triceron]

Class Skins suffer from lacking strong identity and fresh gameplay. They're also bound to the performance of the Core class, so if Warlocks happen to perform poorly in an expansion, then so would a Necromancer Class Skin that uses its same gameplay.

4th specs suffer from too much gameplay bloat, and having to satisfy a 'status quo' without strong identities (ie Spellcaster Pally, yet another Rogue spec). There's no easy way to just add one or two new 4th specs without an expectation for every class to get its fair share.



So I'm presenting an 'Other' concept I call Echo Classes, taking a note from Smash Bros' alternate skins and gameplay for characters

An Echo Class is a New Class that introduces one New Spec that defines them as a standalone Class. They also share existing Specs with Core Classes as 'filler', to round out the gameplay.
- Echo Classes can adapt 1-2 existing Core Class specs. This allows some Echo Classes to simply have 2 specs, like Demon Hunters.
- Echo Classes can draw from multiple Core Classes. This is a special case for certain concepts.


Example:

Dark Ranger is a well established concept from Warcraft 3. There's plenty of overlap with Hunters, and could easily be a class skin. However they have certain abilities that aren't present in Hunter class to be fully represented by Hunters. If made into a 4th spec, then we'd get some odd mixes of Tauren or Mechagnome that may not really fit the fantasy of a Dark Ranger.

As an Echo Class, a Dark Ranger would have full control over what weapon types it uses, what races can be played, and still have its full fantasy be carried out through a new spec designed specifically for them. Dark Rangers could adapt Marksmanship from Hunters as their bread-and-butter Ranged spec, adapt Subtlety from Rogues as a stealthy, shadowy assassin, and add an all new Domination spec that envelops the Charm and Possession abilities and spellcasting Banshee themes, while still retaining Physical-Ranged auto attack gameplay.


With this method, an Echo Class is treated like a New class that only needs to add 1 brand new spec to the game at a per-class basis. It's not like 4th Specs where adding just 1 new 4th Spec opens the doors to everyone expecting their own class to get a new spec. It's not like Class skins where there's zero new gameplay to speak of. This would be a controlled way of rolling out new Class concepts while minimizing the bloat of adding 2-3 new specs to the game at a time.

[FossilFree]

Class Skins suffer from lacking strong identity and fresh gameplay. They're also bound to the performance of the Core class, so if Warlocks happen to perform poorly in an expansion, then so would a Necromancer Class Skin that uses its same gameplay.

4th specs suffer from too much gameplay bloat, and having to satisfy a 'status quo' without strong identities (ie Spellcaster Pally, yet another Rogue spec). There's no easy way to just add one or two new 4th specs without an expectation for every class to get its fair share.



So I'm presenting an 'Other' concept I call Echo Classes, taking a note from Smash Bros' alternate skins and gameplay for characters

An Echo Class is a New Class that introduces one New Spec that defines them as a standalone Class. They also share existing Specs with Core Classes as 'filler', to round out the gameplay.
- Echo Classes can adapt 1-2 existing Core Class specs. This allows some Echo Classes to simply have 2 specs, like Demon Hunters.
- Echo Classes can draw from multiple Core Classes. This is a special case for certain concepts.


Example:

Dark Ranger is a well established concept from Warcraft 3. There's plenty of overlap with Hunters, and could easily be a class skin. However they have certain abilities that aren't present in Hunter class to be fully represented by Hunters. If made into a 4th spec, then we'd get some odd mixes of Tauren or Mechagnome that may not really fit the fantasy of a Dark Ranger.

As an Echo Class, a Dark Ranger would have full control over what weapon types it uses, what races can be played, and still have its full fantasy be carried out through a new spec designed specifically for them. Dark Rangers could adapt Marksmanship from Hunters as their bread-and-butter Ranged spec, adapt Subtlety from Rogues as a stealthy, shadowy assassin, and add an all new Domination spec that envelops the Charm and Possession abilities and spellcasting Banshee themes, while still retaining Physical-Ranged auto attack gameplay.


With this method, an Echo Class is treated like a New class that only needs to add 1 brand new spec to the game at a per-class basis. It's not like 4th Specs where adding just 1 new 4th Spec opens the doors to everyone expecting their own class to get a new spec. It's not like Class skins where there's zero new gameplay to speak of. This would be a controlled way of rolling out new Class concepts while minimizing the bloat of adding 2-3 new specs to the game at a time.

This is a really unique idea, I dig it!

[DatToffer]

I don't think I ever saw a thread who could describe exactly how class skins would work and yet everyone seem to want it ?

I guess everyone does have a vague idea of how they want this.

[Hitei]

As an Echo Class, a Dark Ranger would have full control over what weapon types it uses, what races can be played, and still have its full fantasy be carried out through a new spec designed specifically for them. Dark Rangers could adapt Marksmanship from Hunters as their bread-and-butter Ranged spec, adapt Subtlety from Rogues as a stealthy, shadowy assassin, and add an all new Domination spec that envelops the Charm and Possession abilities and spellcasting Banshee themes, while still retaining Physical-Ranged auto attack gameplay.

With this method, an Echo Class is treated like a New class that only needs to add 1 brand new spec to the game at a per-class basis. It's not like 4th Specs where adding just 1 new 4th Spec opens the doors to everyone expecting their own class to get a new spec. It's not like Class skins where there's zero new gameplay to speak of. This would be a controlled way of rolling out new Class concepts while minimizing the bloat of adding 2-3 new specs to the game at a time.

Any interesting take, but there's a lot of secondary balancing problems you're not factoring in, you might end up with more of a headache than if you just did the 4th specs.

I don't think I ever saw a thread who could describe exactly how class skins would work and yet everyone seem to want it ?

I guess everyone does have a vague idea of how they want this.

Generally they are just visual reskins of existing classes such that the class skin plays mechanically exactly like its parent class, but visually looks like some other class-like thing. For example You might have a Dragonsworn (Paladin), where instead of ret being all fire and light, the spells are all arcane and frost for the blue flight, a spell like consecrate becomes "Surging Rune" and drops a large arcane glyph instead of the consecrate, divine storm becomes Azure Gale and is a swirling tornado of snow and electric-looking arcane energy instead of swirling lights and hammers. Then prot becomes Black dragon themed, Avenger's shield turns into "Hurl Boulder" and throws a rock, blessed hammer becomes swirling bolts of lava, etc. And Holy becomes a Bronze themed spec where the light effects are replaced by more sandy-arcane spells that "unwind" damage on the target, etc.

So you have a new-feeling class but without the requirements of creating three new mechanical systems for the new specs with a bunch of new spells that operate specifically for that class and have to be balanced individually (since being a reskin means you just apply any buffs/nerfs to Paladin to Dragonsworn as well.

[Triceron]

I don't think I ever saw a thread who could describe exactly how class skins would work and yet everyone seem to want it ?

I guess everyone does have a vague idea of how they want this.

I mean that's the kicker though - there's an infinite amount of ways to design the game, not just one. Blizzard happens to take the one direction they choose and run with it.

Class Skins is bourne out of a demand for more classes while trying to avoid the obvious pitfalls of gameplay bloat or development hell. The pace for 1 New Class every 4-7 years is not an ideal way to satisfy the demand. That's the grand appeal of Class Skins. The demand for Class skins is a demand for more representation for the iconic Heroes of Warcraft in playable form.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Class skins, clearly. Benefit the many over the few/FOTM players.

[Triceron]

Any interesting take, but there's a lot of secondary balancing problems you're not factoring in, you might end up with more of a headache than if you just did the 4th specs.

I'm free to discuss if you have any in mind that I haven't covered.

The immediate ones that come to mind are core-class buffs, resource types and gear. The balance shouldn't be a problem if Specs are treated as isolated gameplay, and it only really gets complicated for classes that have a lot of cross-spec abilities like Druids having access to all forms and their abilities in each spec. Yet that can easily be avoided by just not having an Echo class based on that type of gameplay, unless we have a concept that fits.

Since these are still going to be treated as New Classes with the shared Specs being kept as filler, the primary factors of gameplay that need to be considered are those that will affect Raiding or PVP at the broadest scale. I mean, it doesn't need to be completely 1:1 where the Marksmanship DR performs exactly at the level of a Marksmanship Hunter in both PVE and PVP; just as long as it's within reason. There's always a case where Domination might be the better Raiding spec for Dark Rangers. There's always going to be slight inconsistencies in balance, and I think as long as the goal is hitting a 'window' rather than an aim to keep it exactly 1:1 in performance, I think differences could be acceptable. The general idea is that Blizzard wouldn't need to fine-tune balance 3 completely new specs, they can just 'borrow' gameplay from other classes; much in the way a Druid initially 'borrowed' Warrior and Rogue gameplay and eventually expanded into its own specs.

In an abstract way, Demon Hunters already did a lot of this by having gutted Warlocks and Monks and adapting their gameplay and abilities to fit as Demon Hunter specs. The difference here is that nothing needs to be gutted, just a literal copy/paste that gets them closer to completion, and allows them to focus more on the new spec.

[Captain Proton]

I mean that's the kicker though - there's an infinite amount of ways to design the game, not just one. Blizzard happens to take the one direction they choose and run with it.

Class Skins is bourne out of a demand for more classes while trying to avoid the obvious pitfalls of gameplay bloat or development hell. The pace for 1 New Class every 4-7 years is not an ideal way to satisfy the demand. That's the grand appeal of Class Skins. The demand for Class skins is a demand for more representation for the iconic Heroes of Warcraft in playable form.

This just doesn't make sense to me. Class skins doesn't fill the demand for more classes, as its the same class with new spell animations. It's A LOT of work for very little actual payoff imo. Considering the state of classes, I much rather them actually address issues with the class rather than spend so much time for just a cosmetic feature.

[Divada]

Class skins is a no brainer.

[Triceron]

This just doesn't make sense to me. Class skins doesn't fill the demand for more classes, as its the same class with new spell animations. It's A LOT of work for very little actual payoff imo. Considering the state of classes, I much rather them actually address issues with the class rather than spend so much time for just a cosmetic feature.

It's a 'next best thing' when we consider the alternative is *maybe* a New class, then a 5-7 year gap before the one after.

The demand is not going to be satisfied by that alternative when we have so many class concepts in demand.

[Niwes]

i choosed „other“ because i nowhere saw „more real content“ or „new lore and great story telling“

tbh: i give a fuck about new combos. its cheap and just throws more additional money for simple services into their mouth. i also give a fuck about a new class, which costs a lot of investment and pleases just 1/13th of the player base. and the rest is also… hmm. i would way more like it, to see my money invested in content and good story.

but if i just have no other options than the above (without „other“ option), i would say class skins. its at least something.

[Hitei]

I'm free to discuss if you have any in mind that I haven't covered.

The immediate ones that come to mind are core-class buffs, resource types and gear. The balance shouldn't be a problem if Specs are treated as isolated gameplay, and it only really gets complicated for classes that have a lot of cross-spec abilities like Druids having access to all forms and their abilities in each spec. Yet that can easily be avoided by just not having an Echo class based on that type of gameplay, unless we have a concept that fits.

I think it would be complicated regardless. What do you do if sub is overperforming compared to Outlaw and Mut, but fine or underperforming on the dark ranger compared to MM and the domination spec? Suddenly you're in a situation where you're forced into not touching a spec that needs to be addressed because it's balancing is bound to two different classes. Outlaw and Mut might be in a really perfect spot, but you can't nerf sub now without also nerfing Domination, and now MM is completely broken for dark rangers, but you can't balance MM without also considering the current state of BM and Survival on actual hunters.

Druids are just the class that has a lot of readily apparent cross-spec spells, but all classes have that. Are Dark Hunters getting sprint? Stealth? poisons? Evasion? Vanish? Blind? Sap? Can they kick? Do they get one kick (Sub) and lose the other (MM)? If they are getting sprint, stealth etc., do they only have those in sub and then just have a 100% completely different spell list and tool kit when they switch specs? Do they get shroud? If so how do you balance that rogues are taking a significant utility hit by having another class able to just switch specs and bring their exact capabilities but with the added versatility of not being melee when they switch spec? If you have three completely isolated specs with zero crossover spells (which is basically mandatory to maintain any sort of balance without making two separate sub/MM specs), how do you resolve the fact that the dark ranger doesn't feel like a class, but like three different classes with completely different mechanics taped together? It's not going to feel good hitting that button and watching every single spell on your bars go away and replaced by a new set that share no mechanics at all.

There's also that even if you have the three specs individually isolated, the above shroud example is just one of a bunch of balancing issues created here: outside of combat what you're describing is completely and totally broken. A class that can freely stealth around at full speed, spec swap and now have a hunter pet to tank for it and extreme kiting ability. That has access to tracking and lockpicking, that can bring sap and also bring traps if sap isn't working. That can bring shroud and heroism via pet. That can survive falls with disengage and also shadowstep upwards, directly counter stealth or make full use of it... and all of that is without even touching whatever capabilities the actual dark ranger spec brings. They also triple dip on new any potential new abilities.

It just seems like you would have an easier time adding like 4 or 5 new specs to classes than you would constructing this one new class that in theory is only getting a single new spec.

[Onikaroshi]

New class 100%, need another healer and ranged dps that wears mail.