Russian invasion of Ukraine

[XDurionX]

Russia isn't shy of proving time and time again why its neighbours WANT Nato within their borders.

Countries annexed by Nato : Still 0.

[Flarelaine]

Hows your track record longer? You’re what, 70 years old as a nation? xD

"Rus" has been mentioned in chronicles in the 9th century and arguably has cultural, if not political, continuity since that time. Politically, the rise of the Principality of Moscow that morphed into what we know as Russia started in the 14th century.

[ati87]

Russia isn't shy of proving time and time again why its neighbours WANT Nato within their borders.

Countries annexed by Nato : Still 0.

Part of the problem is that what we see as neighbours Russians see as rightfully theirs.
This hasn't been emphasised enough but Putin's speech of 2 days ago kind of said as much, he (Putin) sees Ukraine as part of Russia and there independence has been a mistake from there POV.

Look at the defense we are seeing of Russia, most of it boils down to "what about the US, look at what they done" which really has no relevancy towards what's happening between Ukraine and Russia.
If the US starts invading X country we can have that discussion of how shitty of a move that is, looking back most people did exactly that when Trump tried to start a bloody war with Iran.

[Crispin]

Typical American knowledge of history.

That's cute, coming from the guy that thinks that NATO invaded Iraq. Apparently your ignorance is fuelling your fear of NATO, not facts.

[Zoranon]

The current situation is starting to bear disturbing parallels to 1938. Once again we have a leader of a large country rambling about an alleged threat by a far smaller country accompanied by alleged human rights violation of a same language minority.

We all know what results appeasement had back then. Therefore Putin´s agression must be answered with much stronger sanctions...

[Ashnazg]

You know exactly, what you'd have to do, to keep this conversation civil, but Shalcker still isn't permabanned.

Turn the forum into an echo chamber?

[Shalcker]

The historical record of Russia through it's various incarnations since the rise of the Moscowites is one of authoritain expansion. With repression of everyone not the ruler(s) along the way.
The US meanwhile isn't much better, compared to Russia they mostly have the high horse.

Modern "democratic" developments were driven by conditions that simply no longer exist; even in Western countries they largely remain due to inertia - but as we see with Canadian truckers and some other events they can easily be suspended.

As far as i see wherever US will turn fascists or socialist is going to be a toss-up.

West failed to create sustainable development for the world - and now it starts to fail even creating sustainable development for themselves as inflation rises and energy prices skyrocket.

As for your neighbours wanting defensive alliances...
Maybe don't try to treat them as enemies or subjects!

Maybe you could try that with Russia too.

Not holding my breath.

I know Russia has been extremely bad at that through history time to bloody learn it!

"Extremely bad", oh my, what a devastating accusation.

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Russia demanded that Ukraine not join NATO. Why are you lying?

It demanded it from US.

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Russia isn't shy of proving time and time again why its neighbours WANT Nato within their borders.

Countries annexed by Nato : Still 0.

Because NATO is deathly afraid of responsibility; it doesn't want to clean up messes it created, it doesn't want (or is incapable) to rebuild societies it destroyed, their strategy is destroy then run away.

[Crispin]

It demanded it from US.

https://www.rt.com/russia/550131-mos...-answers-nato/

Russia still expects the US and its NATO allies to provide Moscow with a substantive and concrete response to its demand for security guarantees, Russian President Vladimir Putin told his French counterpart, Emmanuel Macron on Sunday.

According to the Kremlin, Putin stressed the necessity for US-led military bloc NATO to give serious consideration to Moscow’s demands.

“Putin once again emphasized the need for the US and NATO to take Russia’s demands to ensure its security guarantees as seriously as possible and to respond specifically and to the point,” the Kremlin statement said.

Wrong again lol.

[Shalcker]

https://www.rt.com/russia/550131-mos...-answers-nato/

Wrong again lol.

It say US right in your quote.

[Azadina]

We already tried that multiple times; nothing changed.

Got to deal with world as it is and rely on our own strength rather then wishful thinking.

Same can happen with United States.

So far we got longer historical track record.

The only thing you've tried multiple times, is attack neighbouring countries by false flag attacks. You've NEVER tried existing as ally, or even just barely trustworthy country.

So how about TRY it, just once? ONCE.

[Shalcker]

The only thing you've tried multiple times, is attack neighbouring countries by false flag attacks. You've NEVER tried existing as ally, or even just barely trustworthy country.

Wrong. 2000s were full of Russian cooperation with West.

The entire Medvedev's presidency was attempt to win Western favor.

It was worse then useless.

[Azadina]

Wrong. 2000s were full of Russian cooperation with West.

The entire Medvedev's presidency was attempt to win Western favor.

It was worse then useless.

Really? I recall some Russian invasion of neighbouring country in 2008 already. You just can't help it with these false flag invasions.

What about 2014? 2022? 1939? 1945 - till fall of soviet union.

Fuck that's a lot of invading and occupying neighbouring states.

[Crispin]

It say US right in your quote.

And NATO, which ruined the BS your were spewing, yet again.

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Wrong. 2000s were full of Russian cooperation with West.

The entire Medvedev's presidency was attempt to win Western favor.

It was worse then useless.

Yeah Putins speech in 2007 were soo based on cooperation.

You're just straight up trolling at this point.

[Shalcker]

Really? I recall some Russian invasion of neighbouring country in 2008 already. You just can't help it with these false flag invasions.

Except it was Georgia who attacked. There was no "false flag" - Saakashvili simply thought he could get away with it with Western backing.

The Guardian from 2008: Analysis: Georgia's decision to shell Tskhinvali could prove 'reckless
----------------------------
President timed action to coincide with Olympics, says academic
David Hearst and James Orr
Fri 8 Aug 2008 17.05 BST

It has always been hard to work out who fired the first shot in any of the many conflicts that had broken out in the Caucasus.

Ever since June 1992, when the tiny mountain enclave of South Ossetia won the first round of its bid to detach itself from Georgia, the two sides have been intermittently at war.

But the flare-ups in the last decade have been skirmishes, and for a while it looked as though peace had broken out.

The weapons used today — tanks, multiple rocket launchers and fighter aircraft — made the fighting qualitatively different.

Observers had little doubt that the operation to take South Ossetia back under Georgian control bore the hallmarks of a planned military offensive.

It was not the result of a ceasefire that had broken down the night before - it was more a fulfilment of the promise the Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, had made to recapture lost national territory, and with it a measure of nationalist pride.

The assault appears to be have carefully timed to coincide with the opening of the Olympics when the Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, was in Beijing.

Tom de Waal, of the Institute for War and Peace Reporting and an expert on the region, said: "Clearly there have been incidents on both sides, but this is obviously a planned Georgian operation, a contingency plan they have had for some time, to retake [the South Ossetian capital] Tskhinvali.

"Possibly the Georgians calculated that, with Putin in Beijing, they could recapture the capital in two days and then defend it over the next two months, because the Russians won't take this lying down."

If Georgia calculated that Russia would be inhibited by Putin's presence at the Olympics, that soon backfired.

Within hours, the Russian president, Dmitri Medvedev, chaired a session of the security council in the Kremlin, ordering units of the 58th Russian army to retake Tskhinvali. The Russian president's military credentials are so weak - he had no other choice.

Many of the 75,000 inhabitants of Tskhinvali and its outlying villages are now Russian citizens, with passports and rights to settle in Russia.

Northern Ossetia, with whom the southern separatists want to join, is formally part of the Russian Federation. While Georgians view South Ossetia as a part of its sovereign territory, there is a rival Ossetian claim.

It predates the current authoritarian regime in the Kremlin, but still links the enclave to the mothership of the Russian Federation.

Jonathan Eyal, the director of studies at the Royal United Services Institute (Rusi), warned that all-out war between Russian and Georgia would amount to "the worst crisis in Europe since the end of communism".

He described Georgia's decision to shell Tskhinvali as a brazen effort to humiliate the Russians.

"It is clearly a calculated gamble by the Georgians," he said.

"If they manage to overrun South Ossetia, where there are probably only around 1,000 Russian troops at the moment, they will have humiliated Russia and would have created a triumph for themselves.

"They will also have propelled the west into a diplomatic involvement on the ground."

Eyal claimed there was considerable sympathy among western powers over Georgia's difficult relationship with Russia.

He said the country was suffering from a deliberate "strategic fomentation" of the separatist movement by the superpower.

However, he warned that taking on Russia at a time when Medvedev was keen to establish his influence carried significant risk.

Russia could not afford to stand quietly by while Georgia made such a public assault on its troops stationed in the region, he said.

"There is an element of trying to call the Russians' bluff by assuming that the Russians will not be able to afford all-out war in Georgia," he added.

"I personally don't buy that … Putin cannot afford to be seen to be humiliated in such a brazen, public way. It's inconceivable that the Russians will sit quietly by.

"The only possible outcome is that either a ceasefire is negotiated and a mediation effort begins, or it goes out into an all-out war."

Eyal said he believed Georgia's move to strike South Ossetia would generate a mixed reaction from world powers.

He described a feeling that the country was "more sinned against than sinning" but that there was also significant frustration over the actions of its president.

"If it goes into an all out war, the predicament for the west is acute and the crisis would be the worst crisis in Europe since the end of communism.

"It would be much worse than the Yugoslav wars, mainly because it has the old traditional element of an east-west confrontation.

"There is considerable sympathy for Georgia among western governments such as the US and London. It is clear that the Russians have fomented the separatist movement for a particular strategic purpose.

"There is also, however, an enormous amount of frustration with the reckless behaviour of the Georgian president at this moment."
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Before we move on to 2014 and beyond, and with 2008 events shown above - do you agree that Russia was trying to be friendly and cooperative in 2000s?

Or do you have some other proof that it was the same tyrannical authoritarian state treating everyone around them as subjects?

[Azadina]

Except it was Georgia who attacked. There was no "false flag" - he simply thought he could get away with it with Western backing.

Before we move on to 2014 and beyond, and with 2008 events shown above - do you agree that Russia was trying to be friendly and cooperative in 2000s?

Or do you have some other proof that it was the same tyrannical authoritarian state treating everyone around them as subjects?

Bullshit. Let's see what wiki says.

Following the election of Vladimir Putin in Russia in 2000 and a pro-Western change of power in Georgia in 2003, relations between Russia and Georgia began to deteriorate, reaching a full diplomatic crisis by April 2008. From 1 August 2008, South Ossetian separatists shelled Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian troops in the area.[32][33][34][35][36] Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke the 1992 ceasefire agreement, which stipulated this type of weaponry was not allowed to be deployed in the conflict zone.[38][39][40] When Georgian president Saakahsvili announced a unilateral ceasefire on the evening of 7 August 2008,[41][42][43] a new wave of South Ossetian attacks on Georgian villages followed.[44] This triggered the Georgian government into "restoring the constitutional order",[45] and sending the Georgian Army to the South Ossetian conflict zone just before midnight on 7 August.[46] Georgian troops took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours

That's what I thought. Russia backed terrorists being the instigators, exactly like in Eastern Ukraine in 2014, as well as in our current year 2022.

Friendly and cooperative? As we can read, you spent 2003 to 2008 cooking up excuses for war. Not very friendly or cooperative.

Do you agree Russia has been extremely untrustworthy and hostile for past 100 years at the very least?

[Machismo]

I'm still trying to figure out why people can get away with cheering on Putin, who is quite literally acting like a Nazi, and continuously getting caught pushing lies and misinformation in order to shill for those wannabe Nazis.

[ati87]

I'm still trying to figure out why people can get away with cheering on Putin, who is quite literally acting like a Nazi, and continuously getting caught pushing lies and misinformation in order to shill for those wannabe Nazis.

Some of them are Russians themselves and it's a natural response honestly to go into defense mode.
But mind you that nobody is actually defending Russia but all of those " defenders" are just blaming the US because the US is bad and invaded XYZ country at some point in the last 70 years.

And if you point out this whatboutism the response is " yea well whatabout the USA"

[Corvus]

Massive cyberattacks have just been launched against Ukraine, including the government, foreign ministry and security services according to the BBC.

[Shalcker]

Bullshit. Let's see what wiki says.

That's what I thought. Russia backed terrorists being the instigators, exactly like in Eastern Ukraine in 2014, as well as in our current year 2022.

All involved Russia; everything else was different.

You could check this CNN fact sheet

===
1918-1921- Georgia is briefly an independent state after separating from the Russian Empire.
1921 - After the Red Army invasion, Georgia and Abkhazia are declared Soviet Socialist republics.
1922 - The South Ossetia Autonomous Oblast is created within Georgia.
1931 - Abkhazia's status is reduced to an autonomous republic within Georgia.
1990 - South Ossetia declares its independence from Georgia.
April 9, 1991 - Georgia declares independence.
1991-1992 - Civil war breaks out in Georgia. Zviad Gamsakhurdia is deposed as president.
1992 - Abkhazia declares its independence from Georgia, leading to armed conflict.
October 1992 - Eduard Shevardnadze is elected to lead Georgia. He is reelected in 1995 and 2000.
September 1993 - Abkhazian separatist forces defeat the Georgian military.
October 1993 - Georgia joins the Commonwealth of Independent States.
May 1994 - A ceasefire is agreed upon and signed between the Georgian government and Abkhaz separatists. Russian peacekeeping forces are deployed to the area.
===
Georgia lost the war to Abkhaz separatists. They were saved by Russian intervention and diplomacy.

===
October 2001 - Fighting resumes between Abkhaz troops and Georgian paramilitaries. Russia states that it believes Georgia is harboring Chechen rebels, a claim denied by Georgia.
September 2002 - Russian President Vladimir Putin sends a letter to UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, UN Security Council members, and members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe stating that Georgia must respond to accusations they are harboring Chechen militants or face military action from Russia.
October 2002 - Tensions with Russia are defused after Shevardnadze promises to work with Russia to fight Chechen rebels.
November 2003 - Shevardnadze is forced to leave office in the "Rose Revolution."
July 2005 - Under terms of a deal reached in May, Russia starts to withdraw its troops from two Soviet-era military bases.
May-June 2006 - Tensions between Georgia and Russia rise again when Georgia demands that Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia have visas.
November 12, 2006 - A referendum is voted upon in which South Ossetians overwhelmingly demand independence.
November 2007 - Russia announces that it has withdrawn its Georgia-based troops. It retains a peacekeeping presence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
April 3, 2008 - NATO members at a summit in Bucharest, Romania, defer the decision on Georgia and Ukraine's admittance until December 2008.
April 21, 2008 - Georgia accuses Russia of shooting down an unmanned drone over Abkhazia on April 20. Russia denies the claim.
April 29, 2008 - Russia sends more troops to Abkhazia to counter what it says are Georgia's plans for an attack.
May 26, 2008 - A UN investigation concludes that the drone shot down on April 21 was struck by a missile from a Russian fighter jet.
May 30-31, 2008 - Russia sends several hundred unarmed troops to Abkhazia, saying they are needed for railway repairs. Georgia accuses Russia of planning a military intervention.
August 7-8, 2008 - Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili sends troops into South Ossetia. Russia responds by moving its troops to the border, flying aircraft over Georgia, and beginning air strikes in South Ossetia.
August 8, 2008 - The United States, United Kingdom and NATO call for a cease fire of military hostilities by both Russia and Georgia.
===
Note - "sends troops into South Ossetia" means "shells capital of South Ossetia Tshinvali where Russian peacekeepers are located with artillery and MLRS for several hours starting at 23:35 7 August".

Friendly and cooperative? As we can read, you spent 2003 to 2008 cooking up excuses for war. Not very friendly or cooperative.

And US spent those years leaving critical defense treaties like ABM treaty, enlarging NATO, supporting separatists in Kosovo - even recognizing their independence, supporting variety of color revolutions (of which Saakhashvili was also product) and nationalist movements in Russian abroad.

Do you agree Russia has been extremely untrustworthy and hostile for past 100 years at the very least?

No. Russia made plenty of conciliatory moves.
Removed missiles from Cuba (and even kept agreement that US will in turn remove missiles from Turkey secret as promised). Allowed German re-unification. Dissolved Warsaw Pact. Dissolved USSR too.

It was never enough for you.

You seem to understand "cooperation" only as "you do what we tell you to, and do not resist".

[Azadina]

No. Russia made plenty of conciliatory moves.
Removed missiles from Cuba (and even kept agreement that US will in turn remove missiles from Turkey secret as promised). Allowed German re-unification. Dissolved Warsaw Pact. Dissolved USSR too.

It was never enough for you.

You seem to understand "cooperation" only as "you do what we tell you to, and do not resist".

KEK. That's like saying Adolf Hitler saved everyone by ending the Nazi Germany.

Oh, and nice projection. Because that's exactly Russias MO, and what you've been repeating endlessly here.