"World of Warcraft: Exploring Azeroth - Kalimdor" Lore and Updates [Spoilers]

[Aucald]

And at this point you can just argue "Well, go watch Steven Universe if you want something wholesome, dumdum. Leave us with our angry warriors who hate each other guts and butcher each other on a battleground with metal music in the background." Except that Warcraft has been more than just that for quite a few years now.

Kind of a tangent, but I found the example funny because based on what I've learned about Steven Universe and its story, it's a pretty dark and dystopic tale hiding beneath a playful and cartoony aesthetic. Alien fascists bent on genocide, slavery, and other dark shit hiding beneath what appears on the surface as Pollyanna.

[DatToffer]

Kind of a tangent, but I found the example funny because based on what I've learned about Steven Universe and its story, it's a pretty dark and dystopic tale hiding beneath a playful and cartoony aesthetic. Alien fascists bent on genocide, slavery, and other dark shit hiding beneath what appears on the surface as Pollyanna.

Yeah, not the best example I'll admit xD
I couldn't talk about MLP either because it's not just wholesomeness, but I didn't have any more shows in mind.

[Aucald]

Yeah, not the best example I'll admit xD
I couldn't talk about MLP either because it's not just wholesomeness, but I didn't have any more shows in mind.

Eh, the point stands, sorry for the unrelated diversion.

[Aresk]

yes, "a member of the horde educating an orphan" this would be cool, if you didn't take the specifics out of the equation.

Why there is need to be an blood elf, but not any blood elf that had the job to "literate" people, like a proper teacher, but the blood elf leader., who sure as hell have other things to do, to teach an orphan troll how to read and write his own language?

Why the education need to come from "enlighten" race like elves? this parts from the pressupotion that the horde is, indeed a bunch of illiterate savages and the only people who can change then/give then education are elves or undeads, the non-savage part of the horde., and tht is where the critic of bad stereotype against the book come from, because logically, the horde races are old enough to teach their own how to read and write.

Hell darn zandalari joined the horde, could make Talanji teach him, but no.

Like i said before, this entire thing would be fixed, if he was meaning about common language, the alliance main language, but this and other bad take of the book rly make me believe it was not a mistake, but something proposital, like changing Gazloew to a second Gallywix.

Baine exchanges letters with Anduin. I've already made mention of orcs writing books in my previous post. We have trolls creating tablets detailing the loa and the like. I personally don't feel like having one instance of an illiterate grunt (given Zekhan was simply front-line fodder prior to following Saurfang along and likely wouldn't even exist if not for zappyboi memes) makes the majority of the Horde or even the majority of trolls illiterate. A case could be made that the majority are illiterate, but we've seen no evidence of such.

Out of curiosity, if in the previous book, Flynn mentioned that Alleria taught him how to read and write common prior to traveling around with Shaw, would you be as upset?

Also, as an aside, I think languages in Warcraft are just poorly handled in general. All PCs can understand only a few spoken languages but can read almost any language, as evidenced by the numerous objects that are "right-click to read" found on quests or flavor throughout the world (troll tablets, pandaren scrolls, mogu carvings, etc). Not to mention NPCs seem to speak some version of "common" that is understood by everyone even though the version spoken by PCs cannot be (e.g. in the Arathi warfront, all of the enemy commanders' speech is perfectly understood even though they presumably are speaking in a tongue that their troops could understand and thus the enemy troops could not).

[Syegfryed]

Baine exchanges letters with Anduin. I've already made mention of orcs writing books in my previous post. We have trolls creating tablets detailing the loa and the like.

Exactly, horde races besides blood elves and undead CAN read and write, therefore, Zekhan don't need a blood elf, neither THE leader, to teach him how to read or write, the book has handled this situation poorly and give us a bad stereotype troop, and thats why its being criticized.

Out of curiosity, if in the previous book, Flynn mentioned that Alleria taught him how to read and write common prior to traveling around with Shaw, would you be as upset?

it would a bit less bullshit, but bllshit nevertheless.

Also, as an aside, I think languages in Warcraft are just poorly handled in general. All PCs can understand only a few spoken languages but can read almost any language, as evidenced by the numerous objects that are "right-click to read" found on quests or flavor throughout the world (troll tablets, pandaren scrolls, mogu carvings, etc). Not to mention NPCs seem to speak some version of "common" that is understood by everyone even though the version spoken by PCs cannot be (e.g. in the Arathi warfront, all of the enemy commanders' speech is perfectly understood even though they presumably are speaking in a tongue that their troops could understand and thus the enemy troops could not).

most of this sadly is how they handle gameplay>lore and the later is more that high ranked people know both common and orcish, to understand the enemy faction.

[qwerty123456]

that is simple lame explanations that only reinforce the part of people in the horde being illiterate savages who can't give their own people basic education, and you all are confirming the tidbit

they can't even teach their own race their own language, he had to ask for a blood elf, cause they obviously, have education, cause they are elves.



ah yes, how often a savage race understand about their own language, until someone of the other race explain that to then

you are making this look even worse, lmao.


yes, shamans of the horde also, illiterate savages, just keep bringing on.



i love how you turn this into "basic reading comprehension" to "wearing top hats and monocles" as a bad strawman.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize that this is the same for the Alliance as well right? And its all shamans not just horde shamans. The majority don't understand the language of the elements. It isn't necessary as they have other shit to learn. The majority of non rich/magical people really only have rudimentary knowledge learned from their family or trades.

If you had a grandparent over 70 and they weren't wealthy you can see how little knowledge they learned in school compared to you and thats just 2 generations and you are trying to compare cultures based on medieval and barbarian cultures and expecting them to have modern high school levels of education thats absolutely stupid.

You are way too obsessed with the Horde and yet don't really understand the actual lore just the fanfiction you have built up.

[Syegfryed]

the point was shamans being one of the highest ranks of there people, for trolls that’s not the case which doctors and shadow hunters supplant them, again how ever doesn’t mean no shaman can ever rank highly in a group of trolls.

tht is in fact, not true, as shamans can be high rank among trolls, as Vanira being the living proof, so, if they are only below shadow hunter and witch doctor, only two, this make then one of the highest ranked, you are just trying to argue with semantics of who is the highest, and again, is never the point.

they never said any thing about written word you jumped to conclusions and added that your self.

they said they taught the language, period, you are the only one jumping to conclusions thinking is just reading.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize that this is the same for the Alliance as well right? And its all shamans not just horde shamans. The majority don't understand the language of the elements. It isn't necessary as they have other shit to learn. The majority of non rich/magical people really only have rudimentary knowledge learned from their family or trades.

If you had a grandparent over 70 and they weren't wealthy you can see how little knowledge they learned in school compared to you and thats just 2 generations and you are trying to compare cultures based on medieval and barbarian cultures and expecting them to have modern high school levels of education thats absolutely stupid.

You are way too obsessed with the Horde and yet don't really understand the actual lore just the fanfiction you have built up.

this have nothing to do with what was being said and misses completely the point of the critic against the book.

[qwerty123456]

this have nothing to do with what was being said and misses completely the point of the critic against the book.

The shear ignorance of the people criticizing that scenario in the book is the point. They fail to understand why such a situation would not only be likely but would be strange if it didn't happen.

[Aucald]

Exactly, horde races besides blood elves and undead CAN read and write, therefore, Zekhan don't need a blood elf, neither THE leader, to teach him how to read or write, the book has handled this situation poorly and give us a bad stereotype troop, and thats why its being criticized.

Plenty of Horde members that aren't Blood Elves or Forsaken *can* read and write, but that doesn't address the actual prevalence of literacy in those Horde races. Leaders such as Thrall, Eitrigg, and others are probably quite literate - owing to both their high placement in their society and the necessity of researching history and recording information. We actually know from Garona's journals (from the WC2: BtDP manual) that most Orcs are functionally illiterate - only able to grasp simple words and convey the most basic information in written form. Orcish Mages, Warlocks, and Shaman are likely more literate than peons and grunts, of course; but illiteracy is more or less the norm among the people. I would imagine the same is true of Darkspear Trolls (a previously nomadic people owing to their exile) and probably the Tauren as well, themselves another nomadic people who only recently established a permanent settlement in Thunder Bluff. That being said, Zekhan isn't illiterate based on the book, but simply lacks the higher education necessary to decipher technical or more complex terms - it could well be that he's more proficient with Zandali manuscript but not as adept with Common, Orcish, or whatever.

As for Zekhan relying on Lor'themar, that's probably more down to proximity than anything else. He can't really ask Talanji considering she's currently across the sea in Zandalar, and Lor'themar is more or less close at hand and probably has the highest proficiency in terms of literacy of anyone else in the Council (except perhaps Thalyssra, who may herself still be in Suramar City).

[geco]

As for Zekhan relying on Lor'themar, that's probably more down to proximity than anything else. He can't really ask Talanji considering she's currently across the sea in Zandalar, and Lor'themar is more or less close at hand and probably has the highest proficiency in terms of literacy of anyone else in the Council (except perhaps Thalyssra, who may herself still be in Suramar City).

Lor'themar Isn't it even further?

Perhaps you would have seemed great to me that he taught him poetry or that he taught him Elvish. It would be great if he's trying to make real peace with his cousins. Maybe show that guilt leads to something.

But being taught by orc brings so little to the two characters. But it is contradictory because he takes years and Lor'themar does not have time.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

tht is in fact, not true, as shamans can be high rank among trolls, as Vanira being the living proof, so, if they are only below shadow hunter and witch doctor, only two, this make then one of the highest ranked, you are just trying to argue with semantics of who is the highest, and again, is never the point.

just gonna quote the relevant part of my post because your apparently just not reading my post as I've said this multiple times.

again how ever doesn’t mean no shaman can ever rank highly in a group of trolls.

they said they taught the language, period, you are the only one jumping to conclusions thinking is just reading.

nope they only mention speech, any thing beyond that is you jumping to conclusions.

[Aucald]

Lor'themar Isn't it even further?

Perhaps you would have seemed great to me that he taught him poetry or that he taught him Elvish. It would be great if he's trying to make real peace with his cousins. Maybe show that guilt leads to something.

But being taught by orc brings so little to the two characters. But it is contradictory because he takes years and Lor'themar does not have time.

Lor'themar is in Orgrimmar at current, so probably pretty centrally located on the continent and region that Zekhan's travels are based in. Lor'themar also doesn't need to teach Zekhan anything, he just needs to decipher the missive Zekhan is talking about, which shouldn't take but minutes depending on the missive's length.

[Syegfryed]

Plenty of Horde members that aren't Blood Elves or Forsaken *can* read and write, but that doesn't address the actual prevalence of literacy in those Horde races. Leaders such as Thrall, Eitrigg, and others are probably quite literate - owing to both their high placement in their society and the necessity of researching history and recording information. We actually know from Garona's journals (from the WC2: BtDP manual) that most Orcs are functionally illiterate - only able to grasp simple words and convey the most basic information in written form. Orcish Mages, Warlocks, and Shaman are likely more literate than peons and grunts, of course; but illiteracy is more or less the norm among the people. I would imagine the same is true of Darkspear Trolls (a previously nomadic people owing to their exile) and probably the Tauren as well, themselves another nomadic people who only recently established a permanent settlement in Thunder Bluff. That being said, Zekhan isn't illiterate based on the book, but simply lacks the higher education necessary to decipher technical or more complex terms - it could well be that he's more proficient with Zandali manuscript but not as adept with Common, Orcish, or whatever.

And again, this only further reinforce the bad stereotype that is being criticized in the book, the horde is not what it was before opening the dark portal, a lot of advanced changes happened along the years, their own leaders would be much more focused on giving the recruiters, especially the strong/important ones, the basics. But the book presuppose how majority of the horde, like you say, is just bunch of savages that need to be taught by the "superior races".

And, even if that isn't the case, is what the book presupposes, even if not on purpose, is what they made look like.

the book handles the horde bad, to this tidbit to them returning the status of kalindor to pre-cataclysm and turning Gazlowe into a second Gallywix.

As for Zekhan relying on Lor'themar, that's probably more down to proximity than anything else. He can't really ask Talanji considering she's currently across the sea in Zandalar, and Lor'themar is more or less close at hand and probably has the highest proficiency in terms of literacy of anyone else in the Council (except perhaps Thalyssra, who may herself still be in Suramar City).

Lorthemar should be in silvermoon dealing with his people, not orgrimmar, and you want to tell me he, an elf, would have more proximity to a troll more than the older horde races, who could teach him? Lorthemar would be so busy dealing with the post-war that he would not have time to teach a troll zandali or orcish, thats nonsense.

Like i said, if it was common, so he could speak with alliance races, that would make totally sense., but didn't eem like it was the case

The shear ignorance of the people criticizing that scenario in the book is the point. They fail to understand why such a situation would not only be likely but would be strange if it didn't happen.

there is no likelyhood in a blood elf teaching a troll zandali or orcish when you have trolls and orcs who could do that.

just gonna quote the relevant part of my post because your apparently just not reading my post as I've said this multiple times.

nope they only mention speech, any thing beyond that is you jumping to conclusions.

ok, red herring was not enough so ou are going for circular logic too. But no, mentioning speech does not equally then only teach speaking, that is you, jumping to conclusions with a tiny sample.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

ok, red herring was not enough so ou are going for circular logic too.

there was never any red herring, just you yelling into the wind because you just want to argue not talk about actual lore and that's clear by you not even reading what I post no matter how many times I post it.

[Syegfryed]

there was never any red herring just you yelling into the wind because you just want to argue not talk about actual lore and that's clear by you not even reading what I post no matter how many times I post it.

You start saying nonsense about shamans not reaching high ranks in troll society when we have one among the highest ranks of the trolls(Vanira) then you start saying "but they are not like witch doctors or shadow hunter!! they ar enot THE highest!!", pointless discussion to deviate from the main point, and im not rly going to give any more attention, Vanira and Zentabra already proved you wrong as they are shaman and druid.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You start saying nonsense about shamans not reaching high ranks in troll society when we have one among the highest ranks of the trolls(Vanira) then you start saying "but they are not like witch doctors or shadow hunter!! they ar enot THE highest!!", pointless discussion to deviate from the main point, and im not rly going to give any more attention, Vanira and Zentabra already proved you wrong as they are shaman and druid.

Again more yelling into the wind I've already explained this in like 4 different post and your just not reading them.

again how ever doesn’t mean no shaman can ever rank highly in a group of trolls.

[Aucald]

And again, this only further reinforce the bad stereotype that is being criticized in the book, the horde is not what it was before opening the dark portal, a lot of advanced changes happened along the years, their own leaders would be much more focused on giving the recruiters, especially the strong/important ones the basics. But the book only show how majority of the horde, like you say, is just bunch of savages that need to be taught by the "superior races".

And, even if that isn't the case, is what the book presupposes , even if not on purpose, is what they made look like.

the book handles the horde awfully, to this tidbit to them returning the status of kalindor to pre-cataclysm and turning Gazlowe into a second Gallywix.

I disagree - things like that don't change overnight, and Azeroth has been a place of constant conflict and war that's not really conducive to the Horde overhauling their existing cultures like increasing literacy rates, opening schools, and so forth. No one is saying that anyone needs to be taught by the "superior races," either; you're just jumping at shadows with that off-center accusation. Making use of a resource isn't tantamount to admitting some kind of weakness, not unless your sense of self is so insecure and fragile that you can't tolerate the idea that you couldn't be anything below 100% capable at all times. I also don't equate "illiterate" with savagery, either; that's actually an age-old prejudice that's the foundation of many issues in the real world. Inability to read doesn't mean someone can't be very intelligent, especially since written language is really one way to convey information (and let's not forget that Warcraft is a universe swimming in magic).

As for Gazlowe's odd characterization in the book, I've really got no idea. I think it seems like someone confused Gazlowe and Gallywix at some point, and it's not the only weird tidbit in the book. The Zekhan thing, though; seems more like manufactured or misplaced outrage.

Lorthemar should be in silvermoon dealing with his people, not orgrimmar, and you want to tell me he, an elf, would have more proximity than troll than the older horde races, who could teach him? Lorthemar would be o busy dealing with the post-a that he would not ahve time to teach a troll zandali or orcish, thats nonsense.

Lor'themar's been in Orgrimmar since Thrall, Baine, and the others were taken by the Mawsworn. He'll likely remain there until the current crisis is resolved. And like I said before, he doesn't need to *teach* Zekhan anything, he just needs to translate a missive for him. You're overinflating the impact of what needs to be done in this scenario and actively making Zekhan sound even dumber than your claim of what the book itself is doing.

[Syegfryed]

I disagree - things like that don't change overnight, and Azeroth has been a place of constant conflict and war that's not really conducive to the Horde overhauling their existing cultures like increasing literacy rates, opening schools, and so forth.

We were not in constant conflict, we had enough time to build and grow, Garrosh made sure to rebuild orgrimmar and give better life conditions on people there by example, you can see a better orphanage and i assume, he logically would elevate his ranks by giving him a degree of education, like he entrusted blood elves to train more mages for the horde

no one is asking for colleges and so on, but the basics should be a given by now, unless again we are still going for the stereotype troop.

No one is saying that anyone needs to be taught by the "superior races," either; you're just jumping at shadows with that off-center accusation.

No, im not, im going for what the book presupposes, what does the book imply. You take a troll, we all know what trolls look like, who talk different, with slangs, make him look like he didn't received any education, except from a blood elf, and we all know what they look like. Yeah, i don't expect everyone, especially in different realities, to understand the scope of this and what it imply, and what implications it brings(like again, forcing the bad stereotype troop) knowing warcraft races are based around real people

I think at this point everything that should have being said as said, i still stand that this was a bad and unnecessary move on the book, that reinforce bad stereotype troops and wowhead isn't totally in the wrong for criticizing, which is pretty sad since warcraft was well know from going against said stereotypes, like the horde back in wc3 or bringing Zandalar to life.

Lor'themar's been in Orgrimmar since Thrall, Baine, and the others were taken by the Mawsworn. He'll likely remain there until the current crisis is resolved. And like I said before.

pretty sure Drakka is the one dealing with Orgrimmar after thrall was taken, i remember it was something heavily discussed about it at the time, not Lorthemar. He may be there as long as the council shenanigans needs, but this nowhere make him the first in line here or give him time to be a teacher.

he doesn't need to *teach* Zekhan anything, he just needs to translate a missive for him. You're overinflating the impact of what needs to be done in this scenario and actively making Zekhan sound even dumber than your claim of what the book itself is doing

you are minimizing the issue, when Zekhan in verbatim, say that most of his reading and writing is because of Lorthemar.

The book was handled poorly and those problems could easy be fixed with a few small adjusts that would improve the book and remove the bad stereotypes, i don't know why people are so against it.

[geco]

Lor'themar is in Orgrimmar at current, so probably pretty centrally located on the continent and region that Zekhan's travels are based in. Lor'themar also doesn't need to teach Zekhan anything, he just needs to decipher the missive Zekhan is talking about, which shouldn't take but minutes depending on the missive's length.

Sure, but learning to write takes years.
He won't be in Ogrimar for years, will he?

This may be more interesting than we think.

[Mehrunes]

Kind of a tangent, but I found the example funny because based on what I've learned about Steven Universe and its story, it's a pretty dark and dystopic tale hiding beneath a playful and cartoony aesthetic. Alien fascists bent on genocide, slavery, and other dark shit hiding beneath what appears on the surface as Pollyanna.

It's also not a good example of an escape from Warcraft's storytelling, because just like Warcraft it handles those topics with the grace of a shit-barrage of planes carrying Resident Evil's viral samples crashing into the twin towers. In pretty much the same fashion, with the same trite "grand wisdom" being pushed. "Revenge bad under any and all circumstances", "singing kumbaya together good" and lol-redemption for everyone.

Well, almost everyone, because in the proud tradition of recent western animation that pushes the deep message of lol-redemption, there are exceptions. Like a victim of abuse lashing out against their abuser or a freedom fighter "going too far". Not the space Nazis that killed bajillions in the name of their racial purity agenda though. They sure do deserve their lol-redemption. And we must empathize with them, because they feel sad (not about their crimes obviously, but their convoluted family drama).

Also, as an aside, I think languages in Warcraft are just poorly handled in general. All PCs can understand only a few spoken languages but can read almost any language, as evidenced by the numerous objects that are "right-click to read" found on quests or flavor throughout the world (troll tablets, pandaren scrolls, mogu carvings, etc). Not to mention NPCs seem to speak some version of "common" that is understood by everyone even though the version spoken by PCs cannot be (e.g. in the Arathi warfront, all of the enemy commanders' speech is perfectly understood even though they presumably are speaking in a tongue that their troops could understand and thus the enemy troops could not).

My favorite in regards to how much thought Blizzard spends on its languages will always be "We named him Heart of Draenor. It means Heart of Draenor in the common language of the Horde I should logically be speaking in right now." from Icecrown Citadel.