Is lore completely destroyed?

[FAILoZOFF]

Bold to assume that the writing team ever cared about things making sense, in the first place.

Weeel, fair point, ill give you that one.

[ohwell]

There is some good writing in WoW, certainly not the main lore. Who really cares about the Janitor anyways, there were no hints about him before the SL pre-expansion features. Unless you watch those deep dives into lore and sometimes it sure seemed like they were really pushing it in terms of believable.

The writers were probably one of the first things that got cut to reduce costs.

The fact that you have to be all memey and say Janitor means you can easily have your opinion hand waived away with no real interaction, but where were 90% of the enemies in MoP before MoP? For that matter even the Old Gods themselves were barely an iota of a thought prior to Vanilla. Lore has to be created for the game to continue. Nothing was wrong with the Zovaal being behind the Scourge and Naztherim(who were KNOWN to be involved in everything and full of deception prior to this). But hey keep saying Janitor for your fake cool points you think you're accumulating by saying it when in reality you haven't the slightest idea of what's going on even though most of what you'd need to know has been spelled out of your in game.

[cparle87]

Sorry, my English is bad. I'm going to try to write it this way.

Honorable Orc with culture and civilization: But due to fate, he ends up being the bad guy even though he doesn't want to (W3) = Good.
Orc that only thinks about killing and doing Genocides and uses Honor as a lie (WoW) = Bad.

Thing is, the whole part of WC3 was trying to get back to that kind of culture again. Which proves very difficult when very few remember those days and the new generation see only the glory of war and not the downside. Most orcs, for instance, I'd say are from Garrosh's generation or newer. They see the blood curse thing as some problem their elders caused then solved, case closed. They don't get WHY their elders feel sorry for killing so many people, particularly Alliance, when all they see is the Alliance standing in the way of what the orcs need, like the lumber and food crisis in Ashenvale in Cata.

Remember the thing which first started Garrosh's turning against Thrall was being told that Thrall was somehow "punishing" the orcs by making them live in harsh Durotar when there were more fertile lands bordering it. Just gotta clear out those pesky night elves slumming it up their first.

It's been gone over but the orc's view of honor is something quite a bit different than what we think. An orc won't see anything wrong with attacking an Alliance, even without provocation, on the grounds that the Alliance has something the Horde needs and the assumption that the Alliance with be an obstruction, if not there, than somewhere else. Sylvanas even uses that to convince Saurfang to go along with her War of Thorns. "They're friendly now, but they'll forget that soon enough and go back to being a problem. Future generations won't thank you for not subjugating them now."

[Soon-TM]

The fact that you have to be all memey and say Janitor means you can easily have your opinion hand waived away with no real interaction, but where were 90% of the enemies in MoP before MoP? For that matter even the Old Gods themselves were barely an iota of a thought prior to Vanilla. Lore has to be created for the game to continue. Nothing was wrong with the Zovaal being behind the Scourge and Naztherim(who were KNOWN to be involved in everything and full of deception prior to this). But hey keep saying Janitor for your fake cool points you think you're accumulating by saying it when in reality you haven't the slightest idea of what's going on even though most of what you'd need to know has been spelled out of your in game.

Watching yourself get triggered asf every time someone says the word "janitor" is legit funny, I'll give you that. But regardless of how much you like the Blue Man, he is completely unnecesary for the story. From a Doylist perspective, he's a literal nobody, since the story worked fine before he was introduced (especially the parts more directly related to him, re: the creation of the Scourge and the Third War), and it has been only through a host of retcons recontextualisations that he ever has a role in the first place.

Furthermore, it's funny that you want to compare him to the Old Gods before Vanilla, since there was an entire chapter of the TFT campaign where Arthas and Anub'arak fight Old God-related creatures (the Faceless Ones), including a very Lovecraftian boss-like NPC. Not to mention the further development for OGs during Vanilla, WotLK and especially Cataclysm/MoP. Something MUCH unlike what they've done with this Jailor dude, who was dropped into the narrative without absolutely any buildup - yet we're expected to believe that he was the mastermind of most notable events since at least WC3 KEKW

[ohwell]

Watching yourself get triggered asf every time someone says the word "janitor" is legit funny, I'll give you that. But regardless of how much you like the Blue Man, he is completely unnecesary for the story. From a Doylist perspective, he's a literal nobody, since the story worked fine before he was introduced (especially the parts more directly related to him, re: the creation of the Scourge and the Third War), and it has been only through a host of retcons recontextualisations that he ever has a role in the first place.

Furthermore, it's funny that you want to compare him to the Old Gods before Vanilla, since there was an entire chapter of the TFT campaign where Arthas and Anub'arak fight Old God-related creatures (the Faceless Ones), including a very Lovecraftian boss-like NPC. Not to mention the further development for OGs during Vanilla, WotLK and especially Cataclysm/MoP. Something MUCH unlike what they've done with this Jailor dude, who was dropped into the narrative without absolutely any buildup - yet we're expected to believe that he was the mastermind of most notable events since at least WC3 KEKW

Only one seeming to get triggered is you. Also, it wasn't stated that he was the mastermind behind the events as it stands. The Naztherim serve Denathrius, not the Zovaal. The only confirmed thing he was behind was the Scourge.

[Armael]

Watching yourself get triggered asf every time someone says the word "janitor" is legit funny, I'll give you that. But regardless of how much you like the Blue Man, he is completely unnecesary for the story. From a Doylist perspective, he's a literal nobody, since the story worked fine before he was introduced (especially the parts more directly related to him, re: the creation of the Scourge and the Third War), and it has been only through a host of retcons recontextualisations that he ever has a role in the first place.

Furthermore, it's funny that you want to compare him to the Old Gods before Vanilla, since there was an entire chapter of the TFT campaign where Arthas and Anub'arak fight Old God-related creatures (the Faceless Ones), including a very Lovecraftian boss-like NPC. Not to mention the further development for OGs during Vanilla, WotLK and especially Cataclysm/MoP. Something MUCH unlike what they've done with this Jailor dude, who was dropped into the narrative without absolutely any buildup - yet we're expected to believe that he was the mastermind of most notable events since at least WC3 KEKW

Why are so many so mad that the big bad WHO ONLY EXISTS IN THE SHADOWLANDS for obvious reasons, and no living person has been there before we go there in THIS expansion is behind many events that we've seen for 16 years or more of Warcraft Lore. It's not like this dude was hiding in a basement in Goldshire for 20 years (Then I'd understand why many could be upset.)

[DeltrusDisc]

Shadowlands has all been a dream N'Zoth has been weaving in our heads.

We thought we killed him, nay, he won, he let us dream that we beat him. We've been sleeping, dormant, in his enclave, as he takes over the world.

If only *upside-down smiley face*

[Ardenaso]

Yes, Warcraft must only ever have anything to do with either Arthas or the Burning Legion.

what about the Faceless Ones/Forgotten One? that made made Anub'arak wet his pants even as an undead beetle king

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Hurray for fans doing uncredited, unpaid work for a multibillion corporate franchise. Without immoral intellectual property monopolies, these people would deservedly be getting all of my money.

Did you see the AMA with David Fried? Former Blizzard Level Designer Answers Your Warcraft 3 Questions

Can't remember where in the AMA it is, but he elaborates that Activision rehired him for Reforged to, all by himself and in the span of a year, do a job it took nine level designers several years to do, then pulled the funding, and then completely ghosted him. It's like Activision wants Warcraft to fail.

Kam/Arctict also did stuff on Reforged, and according to his posts in the Re-Reforged threads in Hiveworkshop, he wanted to make much much more than what was in the final product, like Lordaeron also being Reforged (not just Dalaran/Silvermoon) and extra stuff for Varimathras in the Twisting Nether

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the lore can be saved if the Jailor wins, the Bronze Dragonflight comes and restarts back to Vanilla; and the retcons can be excused by making it so that the Twilight Dragonflight were causing "distortions" in time and reality

then pool the story based on the Warcraft 3 purists' ideas, you know, the true fans of Warcraft lore

[Syegfryed]

It's been gone over but the orc's view of honor is something quite a bit different than what we think. An orc won't see anything wrong with attacking an Alliance, even without provocation

nope, that is literally the opposite of what "orc honor" is, they don't attack without provocation

Sylvanas even uses that to convince Saurfang to go along with her War of Thorns. "They're friendly now, but they'll forget that soon enough and go back to being a problem. Future generations won't thank you for not subjugating them now."

thats why the book is garbage and the whole premise of BfA never make sense, it goes against game logic.

[cparle87]

nope, that is literally the opposite of what "orc honor" is, they don't attack without provocation


thats why the book is garbage and the whole premise of BfA never make sense, it goes against game logic.

Orc honor is fighting honorably and doing what is best for your people. For instance the reason Garrosh got mad at the commander in Stonetalon was because he wrecked land Garrosh wanted to claim for their side, not that he nuked neutral druids. He didn't care about destroying the Vale cause he had no intention of occupying it by that point, just exploiting it. Garrosh's problem was he radicalized his faction to see "his people" as only the orcs and not the entire faction. The factions consider the other side's presence as sufficient provocation to launch attacks. The orcs strike first a lot of the time, regardless of whether the other side of gearing up to fight them (like in Cata Hillsbrad) or not.

As for Sylvanas' explanation, we've seen this happen in real life history. Two enemies work together against a common foe. Time passes, generations change. New generation reads about the bad things the other side did without their elders telling them about the times they stood together. New generation gets a black and white view, wonders why their elders didn't stop this alleged enemy with no redeeming qualities, sets out to fix it. Sylvanas took advantage of Saurfang not wanting to leave problems for later generations.

[geco]

Thing is, the whole part of WC3 was trying to get back to that kind of culture again. Which proves very difficult when very few remember those days and the new generation see only the glory of war and not the downside. Most orcs, for instance, I'd say are from Garrosh's generation or newer. They see the blood curse thing as some problem their elders caused then solved, case closed. They don't get WHY their elders feel sorry for killing so many people, particularly Alliance, when all they see is the Alliance standing in the way of what the orcs need, like the lumber and food crisis in Ashenvale in Cata.

Remember the thing which first started Garrosh's turning against Thrall was being told that Thrall was somehow "punishing" the orcs by making them live in harsh Durotar when there were more fertile lands bordering it. Just gotta clear out those pesky night elves slumming it up their first.

It's been gone over but the orc's view of honor is something quite a bit different than what we think. An orc won't see anything wrong with attacking an Alliance, even without provocation, on the grounds that the Alliance has something the Horde needs and the assumption that the Alliance with be an obstruction, if not there, than somewhere else. Sylvanas even uses that to convince Saurfang to go along with her War of Thorns. "They're friendly now, but they'll forget that soon enough and go back to being a problem. Future generations won't thank you for not subjugating them now."

If what you say is true. No one should have followed Varock or Voljin in their revolutions. By the way also nobody wanted the Druids because the Druids study with the "evil Kaldore".

I think the tighter than the average Horde citizen thinks is "Why are we attacking teldrazzil again I still don't get it?" as the players asked blizzard and he did not respond.

Besides that resource war does not end when the Gobling is destroying the resources that the Horde needs so much as you say. The Horde literally needs resources now just because the Goblings destroyed Ashara.

PS: Currently according to wow the Honor orc. Does not exist. It's just an empty lie. Varock proves it. According to his honor, killing civilians from behind is fine, but killing Malfurion from behind is wrong.

If we have to think that there is a code of Honor there, it would be something like "Only the important deserve Honor, the People are just cannon fodder" I don't think the Horde likes that honor because they are 90% common good.

As for Sylvanas' explanation, we've seen this happen in real life history. Two enemies work together against a common foe. Time passes, generations change. New generation reads about the bad things the other side did without their elders telling them about the times they stood together. New generation gets a black and white view, wonders why their elders didn't stop this alleged enemy with no redeeming qualities, sets out to fix it. Sylvanas took advantage of Saurfang not wanting to leave problems for later generations.

Hello, I am Argentine from real life.
* I have commercial and cultural deals with Spain. You know the tyrannical King that we reveal ourselves and send him back to Europe.
* I have commercial deals with England ... the one that stole the Falklands from us, we even still have a day to remember that we hate him XD.
* I have commercial and cultural deals with Uruguay. You know the Province that we blessed Brazzil and let them die.

Still with the list of enemy nations that we get along with?

Real life tends towards peace. Because most people have no interest in traveling half the world to go to war. Most of the people have problems and things to solve on their lands and with that they are happy.

[Syegfryed]

Orc honor is fighting honorably and doing what is best for your people. For instance the reason Garrosh got mad at the commander in Stonetalon was because he wrecked land Garrosh wanted to claim for their side, not that he nuked neutral druids. He didn't care about destroying the Vale cause he had no intention of occupying it by that point, just exploiting it. Garrosh's problem was he radicalized his faction to see "his people" as only the orcs and not the entire faction. The factions consider the other side's presence as sufficient provocation to launch attacks. The orcs strike first a lot of the time, regardless of whether the other side of gearing up to fight them (like in Cata Hillsbrad) or not.

I like how your example is just "garrosh", is like me saying all humans are Gaithos. See what Saurfang says in "good war" about that, fighting honorably and doing what is best fo your people don't include murdering for fun, genocide for no reasons tor attacking without provocation. Grosh in cataclysm still was someone who they didn't turn into an villain, he didn't wanted to kill people innocents.

Garrosh only cared about rocs alter because only the orcs wanted to keep going with his conquest, Garrosh would welcome any race that had commitment.

The orcs of the horde never attacked first in wow lifetime until BfA, it was all alliance, maybe people forgot since much time has passed

As for Sylvanas' explanation, we've seen this happen in real life history. Two enemies work together against a common foe. Time passes, generations change. New generation reads about the bad things the other side did without their elders telling them about the times they stood together. New generation gets a black and white view, wonders why their elders didn't stop this alleged enemy with no redeeming qualities, sets out to fix it. Sylvanas took advantage of Saurfang not wanting to leave problems for later generations.

yeah, and the fail logic here is how time didn't pass, it was not even 3 years since MOP, completely obnoxious

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PS: Currently according to wow the Honor orc. Does not exist. It's just an empty lie. Varock proves it. According to his honor, killing civilians from behind is fine, but killing Malfurion from behind is wrong..

except this isn't true?, cause he didn't teldrasil?

[uzira]

Nope, i still love the lore and im super excited for what is to come

[geco]

except this isn't true?, cause he didn't teldrasil?

Send assassins to kill civilians at the start of the War. killing everyone in the villages on the way to teldrazzil.

[Awelon]

Lore was scrapped after Cataclysm. Now it's only one-upping each expansion and soon we'll gonna have to battle the stars and Universe itself.

[Syegfryed]

Send assassins to kill civilians at the start of the War. killing everyone in the villages on the way to teldrazzil.

except, he didn't do that? he send assassins to kill the high rankers, nowhere said he send people to kill civilians, who, would not help in anything with the plan

[geco]

except, he didn't do that? he send assassins to kill the high rankers, nowhere said he send people to kill civilians, who, would not help in anything with the plan

Nor does it anywhere say something like that was wrong or dishonorable.

He commanded the assassins and the assassins killed as many soldiers as civilians alike.

[Syegfryed]

Nor does it anywhere say something like that was wrong or dishonorable.

He commanded the assassins and the assassins killed as many soldiers as civilians alike.

That is a straight up lie.

The orders were to kill the high ranker soldiers, no civilians were killed by his orders.

[geco]

That is a straight up lie.

The orders were to kill the high ranker soldiers, no civilians were killed by his orders.

No. Look at the side of the alliance and they confirm that the Horde also killed civilians.

[Syegfryed]

No. Look at the side of the alliance and they confirm that the Horde also killed civilians.

Do you know the word, insubordination, right?

In horde side there is no civilians dead, they confirm that.