Seriously - Are People Actually Fine with SL's Vault System?

[mrgreenthump]

Great Vault alone was ok for M+. Not great, took ages to gear up, drops from dungeons was rather useless (13-16 ilvls below vault gear, so your main gear was always coming from the vault).

But Valor completes the system, IMO. Talking about GV for M+ without factoring in valor is pointless. It still takes weeks to gear up solely through M+ (1 GV item + 750 valor), but valor both gives some control to the player (choosing what to spend on) and makes drops meaningful again (spam dOS until you get that trinket). YMMV, of course, I'm bad enough that the pace of gearing felt fine (currently our group is capable of timing 18s in high 240s gear, which is bad, yet still much better than the other half of my guild that struggles on 10s)

You may disagree with me that GV+valor is a good system, but all this talking about GV and just offhandly mentioning valor now and then is disingenious.

Only thing it misses is the valor upgrades going till mythic ilevel. As is, the gap is 8 itemlevels and that is huge. There is almost no reason to do more than 10 M+ a week even if you gear yourself primarily from M+. You won't have the valor to do upgrades due to the weekly cap. By the time you get your first upgrade to +12, you already got 2 278 ilevel vault items.

[Dracullus]

It's 10x better than Legion/BfA systems, although it probably decreased M+ activity.

Could it be better? Of course. For example we could get currency as option to buy specific piece of gear. More option you unlocked = more currency you get. Of course it wouldn't gear you in two weeks, so people would bitch anyway.

[Julmara]

no i got so many dublicates or downgrades in the fucking vault its horible
yes i do mythic+ and mythic for max upgrades but geting a few mats instead of gear more often than i want isnt so nice
specialy at the end of a patch cycle like now its very bad

[Eazy]

I personally think that only people who have nothing better to do actually liked titanforging. It was a total mess, there are ZERO arguments why they should've kept it.

Vault is more fair and much better. The only problem that I find should be fixed is the ilvl of the items you're getting. You should get the ilvl of the items you deserve(and not higher). For example - you finished +15? You get 236ilvl(or whatever it is). Vault shouldn't be giving higher ilvl items than the ones you could get, it feels kinda unfair... but i guess that's the reason why M+ is still alive.
Plenty of people are farming their 252ilvl off-set/trinkets items from there.

The ideal M+ reward should be something like:

Drop Vault
Mythic 13 236 242
Mythic 14 242 249
Mythic 15 249 249

But that's just my opinion... the worst problem would've been people who farmed their bis trinket in the first 72h of the first week of the season and then just abandon doing M+.

no i got so many dublicates or downgrades in the fucking vault its horible
yes i do mythic+ and mythic for max upgrades but geting a few mats instead of gear more often than i want isnt so nice
specialy at the end of a patch cycle like now its very bad

At least you're getting an option for that and you can choose, depending how many bosses/M+ have you done that week. In BFA you were just getting ONE item that was like 90% of the times useless.
It's not perfect, but it's the best weekly drop mechanic we've got so far.

[paxen]

Valor would have been the best thing they'd ever added if it went to 252 and was uncapped. It's a bit limited in its current form.

They should have made the costs total for Rank 1 to Rank Max and subtract the valor you'd already spent.

At low levels right now you'd suddenly find a good group and you'd get the item you just spent a fortune on to drop at the same ilevel. That's an awful feeling with a capped currency. If it was free-flowing it would probably be more forgiving.

Yeah, the system could use some tuning, but I don't really want a fully uncapped system either, at least not in the first weeks (can you imagine the *grind* if you felt that you had to farm valor until all your gear was upgraded as far as it could go...)

Not sure a roof of 252 feels right for valor? current is 246, which is half a tier behind vault loot. That feels fine to me, but you may be right and allowing it to upgrade to max (with requisite rating of course) is ok. Mythic raids still have another half tier (6/7 ilvls) from the last bosses.


The interesting bit is that valor cap + vault loot allows the devs to decide exactly how much loot an M+ player gets per week. And what they landed on was 1 item + 1-3 upgrades per week. So 1.5 items per week (with much greater control over upgrades). That's...rather low compared to what a raider should expect, going into a fresh raid tier? I think? (I haven't done serious raiding in a decade or more, just 2 hours per week of normal raiding with my irl friends guild that usually can't kill a boss until we're way past getting loot from it.)

[Aresk]

I feel like the vault is fine. The OP's main complaint seems to be that titanforging isn't a thing anymore, which is a completely separate issue. M+ should not give 252 loot at end of run since you have 1,680 M+ lockouts per week vs 10 raid boss loot lockouts per week. The three options is much better than BfA's one option for items to select. I do think that ten M+ runs is a bit much, but for someone who does one a week, the vault is equivalent to the BfA chest, and running four or more in a week makes the vault strictly superior.

[Julmara]

At least you're getting an option for that and you can choose, depending how many bosses/M+ have you done that week. In BFA you were just getting ONE item that was like 90% of the times useless.
It's not perfect, but it's the best weekly drop mechanic we've got so far.

very true i prefer the shadowlands vault over bfa
would still like a bonus roll with it even when its just one per week its just fun beeing overly lucky or overly unlucky with those rolls
you could also choose azerite gear even thou it was very expensive to get the specific high end stuff (i still dislike azerite gear) and not at start as well i believe not sure thou

[Dzonathan]

Anything else than determinism is worse no matter how many bells and whistles you attach to it.

If you target a specific piece or need something specific than no amount of effort will make a difference due to bell curve distribution.

The problem with RNG isn't that it doesn't guarantee me a good time but that it guarantees that on some server there will be an miserable sod. He who puts same or even greater effort than me and yet gets to chose between joke items and has to pretend his 252 Spare Meat Hook is a worthy reward for doing 10 mythics+15. Meanwhile some boosted clown who cant even pull of ES combo right prances about with 252 Weapon after first week. Much fun, WoW!

This issue will be only exaggerated with tier sets as, once again, through bell curve distribution there will be an unlucky sod who cant land his final piece for 4 piece bonus or get a worthwhile item from GV to turn into a tier slot.

I'm sad for this new generation of WoW players. You don't know what you've lost.

[TheFirstOnes]

Why are you all using that vault? Shit wasn’t relevant since 9.0, hell that’s like the least effective way to gear up…

[Temp name]

Specifically, I'm talking about the fact that SL's Vault System massively changed how loot is rewarded in M+ dungeons from BfA to now. We went from a system where you could continuously run M+ dungeons for chance at great loot due to Titanforging and M+ loot being competitive to raid loot, to the current system that we have, where running M+ solely exists to add another slot to your Great Vault for increased loot choice quality.

That's not the vault system changing it though..
The vault is fine, the M+ system is bad

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Why are you all using that vault? Shit wasn’t relevant since 9.0, hell that’s like the least effective way to gear up…

wat..? It's one of the only ways to get 252 loot, and the only one if you don't raid.

[TheFirstOnes]

Anything else than determinism is worse no matter how many bells and whistles you attach to it.

If you target a specific piece or need something specific than no amount of effort will make a difference due to bell curve distribution.

The problem with RNG isn't that it doesn't guarantee me a good time but that it guarantees that on some server there will be an unlocky sod who puts same or even greater effort than me and yet gets to chose between joke items and has to pretend his 252 Spare Meat Hook is a worthy reward for doing 10 mythics+15 while some boosted clown who cant even pull of ES combo right prances about with 252 Weapon after first week. Much fun, WoW!

This issue will be only exaggerated with tier sets as, once again, through bell curve distribution there will be an unlucky sod who cant land his final piece for 4 piece bonus or get a worthwhile item from GV to turn into a tier slot.

I'm sad for this new generation of WoW players. You don't know what you've lost.

“Back in my day, X required this” even tho Classic and TBC had the worst gearing imagineable. RNG and boxes suck, but at least I have like 90 other ways of gearing. Granted I do want master loot back but at this rate…nah lol.

[mrgreenthump]

So 1.5 items per week (with much greater control over upgrades). That's...rather low compared to what a raider should expect, going into a fresh raid tier? I think? (I haven't done serious raiding in a decade or more, just 2 hours per week of normal raiding with my irl friends guild that usually can't kill a boss until we're way past getting loot from it.)

What should raider expect then? Your expectation would be bosses you kill *0.2. On the first weeks only a few kill 5 bosses on mythic. So under 1. It's only after you kill 8 bosses on mythic where the expectation goes over 1.5, granted on farm it's over 2. And you can do M+ at the same time, which every Mythic raider doing any bosses on the first week will do.

But yes on farm raiders get a lot more loot than M+. M+ players only get the vault and some upgrades that won't feel good enough with low ilevel, while raiders get 2.4 on average plus the vault.

Got to remember next patch you'll have 6 of your items locked with 4 set from tier and 2 legendaries, so upgrading will be much less important. You'll also run a crafted 262 ring with a socket for a while probably. Not that it's that much different to this patch with the domination sockets, but the tier will work in M+.

[Zantera]

The vault is a huge improvement over the weekly box, however I don't like the fact that M+ gear (at the end of the dungeon) has a hardcap that is lower than the weekly reward. I think the fact we can pick different options from the weekly reward is a lot better than leaving it up to RNG, however when running the dungeons feel like a means to an end rather than rewarding in itself.

[TheFirstOnes]

That's not the vault system changing it though..
The vault is fine, the M+ system is bad

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wat..? It's one of the only ways to get 252 loot, and the only one if you don't raid.

Ok? Really wish people would not have to rely on a fuckin RNG Vault in order to do get a good mythic raid tier piece of loot…

I would honestly just think it best to do the raid or like 3-4 +15’s?

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Cause I know +15’s are like free max mythic ilvl pieces from the vault yeah?

[Denso]

Yeah, the system could use some tuning, but I don't really want a fully uncapped system either, at least not in the first weeks (can you imagine the *grind* if you felt that you had to farm valor until all your gear was upgraded as far as it could go...)

Not sure a roof of 252 feels right for valor? current is 246, which is half a tier behind vault loot. That feels fine to me, but you may be right and allowing it to upgrade to max (with requisite rating of course) is ok. Mythic raids still have another half tier (6/7 ilvls) from the last bosses.


The interesting bit is that valor cap + vault loot allows the devs to decide exactly how much loot an M+ player gets per week. And what they landed on was 1 item + 1-3 upgrades per week. So 1.5 items per week (with much greater control over upgrades). That's...rather low compared to what a raider should expect, going into a fresh raid tier? I think? (I haven't done serious raiding in a decade or more, just 2 hours per week of normal raiding with my irl friends guild that usually can't kill a boss until we're way past getting loot from it.)

Roof of 252 or targeted upgrade tokens would be necessary. At the moment it's 1 item a week that's complete bingo if it's upgrade or not. There are some stats for some classes whereby if its present on an item you just know its not going to be an upgrade in any way. For me, when in season 1 it happened the third week in a row I just gave up and started raiding instead, for the sole purpose of getting gear to perform in M+. That's bad design in my eyes. Especially as I quit raiding (find absolutely no joy in it, so many people it's just noise) as soon as I had most of the items I wanted. I know this may give a jackass vibe, but it shouldn't be necessary for me to be there raiding in the first place.

Like I mentioned earlier I think giving M+ gear the same treatment as PvP gear would be excellent for the game. X amount of extra levels inside instances.

As for flow of items, I feel you should be able to get all items max level in about a month and then maybe another month of hunting better pieces for each slot. That'll get players playing the game. I know there's some mentality going around that the game ends or pauses when you're fully geared, but for most of us that's when it truly starts.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Why are you all using that vault? Shit wasn’t relevant since 9.0, hell that’s like the least effective way to gear up…

Please explain what is the quickest way to get the high to highest level gear other than the Great Vault. Because this statement makes no sense.

[Gladeheart]

Be nice if you could choose a slot per unlock option that you want to try and target, if they insist on it still being RNG - if i unlock all 3 options in M+, I'd love to be able to make sure option 1 is say a trinket, option 2 a weapon, option 3 a ring or whatever so that at least then I can target the pieces I need. It could still be a random item from within that choice but it'd feel better than having no control over it whatsoever. The Legion and BFA vaults were hot trash because you had absolutely no choice, it just gave you 1 item, at least in the current iteration there's a chance that it can be something good and obviously the more options, the higher the chance of it being something useful.

But I don't really get why it has to be completely random, it's not rewarding at all to have like 5 shit options after doing some raid bosses and m+ - or not ever getting a specific piece that's BiS. Someone suggested a currency you could use to straight up buy the piece you want and I don't really see an issue with that because you still have to complete the dungeons to get any of that currency each week

Also, titanforging was wank because it was completely random - receiving a massively titanforged piece of shit loot from a WQ and then looting a not-massively titanforged BiS piece from the end of an m+ run was the least rewarding gameplay I've ever experienced in WoW. Couple that with not being able to trade something to a mate because it happened to roll +5 higher ilvl than what you currently had on just made it horrendous, in my opinion

[Swnem]

It's not as if pugging raids is exactly a quaranteed success either. Compare like with like.

Now, that the box at the end of an m+ run drops loot that's not even heroic raid level, even for m+15, that's a problem. The drops from m+ runs themselves should be a bit better than they are, so it's not all about the box.

On the other hand, raid loot isn't upgradeable, so non-mythic raiders end up getting that one piece from the vault per week and having to farm the raid to get extra choices. Alternatively they have to run m+ runs for those choices. At least the first extra choice on takes one run.

I think m+ gear should be a bit better, and raid gear should be upgradeable. It's not as if normal and heroic raiders being able to slooooowly upgrade their gear to i246 is going to break anything, and you'd put a cap in so you had to kill certain bosses at each level to enable the various upgrade levels, so no worries about LFR raiders upgrading their way into end-heroic ilevels. I'd also make valour more available - the ilevel caps stop people just upgrading willy-nilly anyway, so all being stingy with valour does is make gearing alts painful. But making alts painful seems to be a goal in itself sometimes.

No, but if someone leaves in a raid you can keep trying. In mythic+ it's the end of the run and you have to start over. So, it's more punishing when someone leaves.

I don't dislike your ideas.

[angrys13]

This is more of a question than a rant at this point, as I'm 9 months separated from the game as of writing this. This is also more in regards to how it pertains to M+ for the most part.

But are people really fine with how it currently is? I know people who exclusively play WoW can lose touch with fundamental design as they are sucked into its specific analytic/statistical design, and as they opt to no longer play other games since WoW demands such a heavy time investment, being what it is. I've seen little to no complaints regarding this, so I'm taking the default assumption that nobody in the WoW community cares or in fact actually likes the current setup.

Specifically, I'm talking about the fact that SL's Vault System massively changed how loot is rewarded in M+ dungeons from BfA to now. We went from a system where you could continuously run M+ dungeons for chance at great loot due to Titanforging and M+ loot being competitive to raid loot, to the current system that we have, where running M+ solely exists to add another slot to your Great Vault for increased loot choice quality.

My main issue with this is that I really like killing monsters and watching them drop quality loot. Currently, this is no longer possible with M+ as the mode does not reward competitive loot, but only serves a function of being an aggregator for your Vault rewards.

I would personally like to go back to enjoying seeing competitive loot drop in the dungeons themselves. Removing or redesigning the Vault System, however you go about it is required.

Not bashing your post, but you speak of coming from an analytical standpoint about having an issue with "only the vault regarding m+".
Then you go on to talk about actual m+ loot not being rewarding.

Your problem is with m+ loot not being rewarding, which is very true. Outside of initial gearing phase or alts gearing up phase, no one runs m+ for the loot itself, only for options inside the vault on a weekly basis. The problem is not really the vault. The vault changes, imo, were good changes. This is subjective of course, but I don't have any other feedback for it.

[Toybox]

At the start of the expansion, no. Raid drops were too infrequent & M+ drops were too far behind. It felt like if you didn't get something from the Vault you were pretty screwed for the week, even if you had mythic on farm.

Right now? Absolutely. Raid drops are more frequent than at launch, M+ gear can be easily farmed & upgraded to a competitive item level, & the vault feels like the cherry on the cake rather than the be all & end all of gearing.