Sylvanas. Dev vs Dev on lore.

[Traveler Voltin]

so after reading this thread.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-suite/1171106

brief summary. Kosak vs Alex on lore related things. once Alex got in charge of lore he abused his power to get revenge my making crazy lore choices(like sylvanas being randomly evil by burning down the tree). it shocked even the voice actors and Metzen.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Yeah I've been hearing this circulate too now.


My question is: how can 1 person (Afrasiabi) have literally all the power to make choices that were allegedly that bad narratively and known to be vindictive in nature just make them unchecked? Perhaps fear of retaliation which we know now, at many levels, was happening.


In one of the posts I saw it said that Afrasiabi knew he was on his way out so he did what he could in the time he had to do all of the aforementioned.

[Super Dickmann]

I've been going on about this for years, it's plenty obvious well before this most recent rush to acknowledge it where it's likely to be dismissed as post-factum mudslinging instead of the fact it is. Afrasiabi didn't want things to go the way they did with Garrosh and foresaw a role for Saurfang in a narrative normalizing Garrosh as a character, being the guy who wrote the excellent Stonetalon Horde story. In turn he wrote the bits that built up Sylvanas for the Mists Warchief role, specifically large parts of Silverpine and WPL, with WPL Sylvanas being the closest to the BFA version. Kosak though had the reins for Mists and on top of writing Edge of Night which turned Sylvanas's cartoonish undead raising into a character beat and reframing how the new undead would work in general, he then turned Garrosh into a clown and sidelined Saurfang entirely. He left after making Sylvanas Warchief and so when Afrasiabi took over, he decided to bring back Saurfang into the role he envisioned relative to enforcing the Horde ideals and turn Sylvanas into the villain he'd wanted for his own, better version of Mists. And so BFA was born.

When Danuser took over he re-backtracked, hence the whole business with the Bald Man and Sylvanas turning from a cardboard cutout to a mopey and kind of dim character, but a character nonetheless and Saurfang from the heart of the Horde and the crucible of world peace to a trinket.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I've heard Allerica's voice actor on twitter, the Red Shirt guy, and Taliesin claim it, but I haven't heard it from any of the actual devs or writers yet. Only people from outside Blizzard.

- - - Updated - - -

it shocked even the voice actors and Metzen.

I am skeptical of rumors that tell fans what they want to hear.

[Statius]

This reeks of scapegoating.

Yes, I know it has been "confirmed" by some Youtubers and streamers, but really, who's to say Blizzard isn't straight up lying to them?
As Kounter says, I find it hard to believe that one guy could be responsible for all of this. Someone signed on on this and someone signed on on continuing with the narrative one and a half year after Afrasabi left. Besides, for all its faults, I actually prefered the story of BFA to that of Shadowlands. It was messy, inconsistent and all over the place, but at least it didn't retro-actively undermine 25 years of established lore.

But wait a minute... So a lot of people are blaming the writing team for what's happening with the lore and now it's suddenly "revealed" that it wasn't actually the work of the current writing team, they were simply being played by this very evil guy that nobody likes and as such we cannot really hold them accountable. Hmm. This seems awfully familiar. Where have I heard this story before?

Oh right! It's the Sylvanas narrative.

I think Blizzard have begun drinking their own Kool-Aid.

[ro9ue]

Something definitely happened during Legion because that might've been the best expansion we ever had. Then it was followed up by BFA and Shadowlands. IMO what is far more likely is that he actually had good ideas, but he was just a bad dude. Legion was when he was front and center. Legion was good. Then he's removed and there's confusion and chaos in the company. Plus Metzen left, plus a lot of others.

Then we get two horrible expansions BFA and SL. People hate BFA and SL so now it seems like people are scapegoating the guy everyone already hates.

Sorry you still have to own how fucking bad BFA was with the shitty N'Zoth ending...

You still have to own how ridiculous it is to go to the afterlife for an expansion...

You still have to own that you created the worst villain ever invented in this franchise...

You still have to own you made this ludicrous "first ones" 3-D printing shop and destroyed stuff and then claimed this was being built since WC3....


Nope, don't buy it, sorry.

[Super Dickmann]

It's extremely unlikely that Afrasiabi and Danuser disagreed on either the tree burning as a general plot point or the general direction of world peace as SL has doubled down on it. The hackneyed Avengers thing is also a shared fascination. But both the Sadfang fascination and the Sylvanas characterization are drastically, obviously different between expansions and cohere entirely with how Afrasiabi has handled the characters before. Blizzard is no stranger to writing based on the preferences. We've had a whole expansion about Metzen getting hitched and however much I like Kosak, Danuser wasn't the first with a massive preference for Sylvanas.

[Foolicious]

I've heard Allerica's voice actor on twitter, the Red Shirt guy, and Taliesin claim it, but I haven't heard it from any of the actual devs or writers yet. Only people from outside Blizzard.

Not wanting to start the hatetrain i know will come anyway but does taliesin have any credibility? I see them time and time again subtweeting stuff and then backing off and twirling their mustache laughing villainous at the people wanting more information.

[McNeil]

So one guy had free reign to write major plots throughout a trilogy of expansions without anyone protesting his decisions? I find this hard to believe, and it doesn't help that the rest of the story is just as bad with SL even going as far as retconning established and beloved lore. They should have tried to keep Metzen in charge and it that wasn't possible then just retire the old characters and make new ones.

[Mojo03]

Just another case of hearsay becoming fact because woke Twitter likes it.

Find me someone that isn't a content creator or a low level Blizzard employee with a Twitter full of SJW tweets that can verify it.

You can't.

Not saying it didn't happen, but you'll often find in stories like this that there is a pattern of gullible, stupid people believing what they want to believe based entirely on some person saying "trust me dude" and proceeding to act on it like its fact.

It's getting really old.

[Feanoro]

How convenient that it's the guy who was let go in disgrace.

Do I think there was pettiness between lead writers? Yes. To the degree being alleged? No.

Also, "see, our Kween was NEVAR bad!" is pure lol worthy. Her entire stint in WoW was villainous, just never in the spotlight. All that really changed was putting her center stage, to the detriment of everyone's ears.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I could buy it but I wouldn't say it comes out in the current writers favor as the first half of Bfa tree burning included was some of the best stuff we ever got lore wise it was the shift post 8.1 where it all started to go down hill instead of just actually giving us a good war they gave us the shitty Suarfang and Sylavnas working for the jailer story.

[bloodmoth13]

That would explain why horde heroes are so scizophrenic and disjointed.

I maintain that all BFA needed was Lordaeron happening before teldrassil and to not make sylvanas a villain. The alliance had every reason to take lordaeron, and it is well within the forsaken character to be spiteful.
Teldrassil happening after lordaeron as a reaction makes a ton of sense, it would be a major overcorrection but considering the alliance having full control over EK and the alliance assaulting the capital of the current horde warchief would be a major act of aggression.
Also being able to play on the discrimination of the forsaken where nobody thought ridding lordaeron of undead was a problem but burning teldrassil was.

Burning teldrassil was pretty damn stupid, shooting some meatballs at its roots and having the entire thing burn down was just utterly stupid, it took a fantasy tier nuke to take out theramore yet a couple of demolishers to take out the night elf capital...

[LordVargK]

Then make the right thing and retcon it. Just do it. Restore Teldrassil and erase the whole BfA expansion from the Lore. It's pretty self contained anyway.

[Kralljin]

Oh right! It's the Sylvanas narrative.

I don't doubt the story for one second, as @Super Dickmann has pointed out, people pieced that together beforehand.

Trying to say that Danuser is "fixing" Sylvanas due to Afrasiabi's Vendetta is just them using this situation to justify their terrible writing.
"It's not bad, it's not a retcon, they're just trying to correct the mistakes their predecessor made!".

The best job they could've done would be to move on and write a coherent story, but if they truly write Sylvanas in a more positive light to -let's not mince words -spite Afrasiabi, they're just as unprofessional as he was in this regard.

The fact that this is coming out now isn't even that surprsing, probably the increasing apathy / negative reception towards the story may have finally reached their Dojo and now they try to save face by blaming everything onto the guy whose reputation cannot be salvaged anyway.

[Statius]

Not wanting to start the hatetrain i know will come anyway but does taliesin have any credibility? I see them time and time again subtweeting stuff and then backing off and twirling their mustache laughing villainous at the people wanting more information.

Taliesin seems to be growing more desperate.
He's spent an entire year defending Shadowlands insiting that the expansion and its lore is actually amazing, it's just that people "aren't getting it."
And now the perhaps most hated storyline is all because of on ex-employee acting out of spite.

So either T&E have realized that people aren't persuaded by their rhetoric and still thinks the lore is terrible and as a last ditch effort comes out with this (or at least parrots it from the mouth of Blizzard) or I guess he's here to thank Afrasiabi. My money's on the later. Indeed I wouldn't be suprised if a T&E video comes out any day now talking about how terrible Afrasiabi is and how the current lore team is (mostly) blameless.

[Jastall]

I'm wary of scapegoating the guy who is now persona non grata across the entire Blizzardsphere, even if globally this makes sense.

At the most, even if the BFA shitshow was solely his doing (press X to doubt), other people on the team should have put a stop to it. It's not like the writers are in a bubble.

[Feanoro]

I don't doubt the story for one second, as @Super Dickmann has pointed out, people pieced that together beforehand.

Trying to say that Danuser is "fixing" Sylvanas due to Afrasiabi's Vendetta is just them using this situation to justify their terrible writing.
"It's not bad, it's not a retcon, they're just trying to correct the mistakes their predecessor made!".

The best job they could've done would be to move on and write a coherent story, but if they truly write Sylvanas in a more positive light to -let's not mince words -spite Afrasiabi, they're just as unprofessional as he was in this regard.

The fact that this is coming out now isn't even that surprsing, probably the increasing apathy / negative reception towards the story may have finally reached their Dojo and now they try to save face by blaming everything onto the guy whose reputation cannot be salvaged anyway.

Quoted and emphasized for perfect statements.

[Stickiler]

Not wanting to start the hatetrain i know will come anyway but does taliesin have any credibility? I see them time and time again subtweeting stuff and then backing off and twirling their mustache laughing villainous at the people wanting more information.

Not sure what you mean by "twirling their mustache laughing villainous", but they've proven in the past that they have close personal relationships with a lot of the blizzard devs.

[Khaza-R]

There's a quite a few factual issues with this theory.

1. There's nothing really indicating that Garrosh was a pet character of Alex's. If anything there's a WoD interview where he states that Garrosh was basically created because they wanted a Hellscream back but then quickly decided his character needed to go an alternative path to Thrall. At this point he had rejoined the WoW team from the failed Titan project so if he wanted to redeem Garrosh, he certainly could of done so.

Source : https://www.engadget.com/2014-11-11-...e-azeroth.html

Another issue if the supposed "source" is a self-described Sylvanas stan. Literally calling herself a "part-time Banshee". So I am going to say there's some very heavy bias here.

Source : https://worldofwarcraft.judgehype.co...helemorrow-en/

So no, I would not believe this rumor. Although I hate using this word, this fan theory reeks of copium. The reality is that Afrasiabi was not a good writer and Danuser is possibly worse. That's why Sylvanas has ended up being such a terrible character.