Should "competing by default" go away completely?

[WowIsDead64]

TL;DR Overall better and shorter explanation is - we need opt in for competition instead of opt out.

At least we need outdoor faction imbalance fix. Playing Alliance is pain even with WarMode off due to "orange sea" and "grey mobs" around.

Yeah, we will have cross-faction instances in 9.2. But outdoor stays the same. You still compete with other players by default, even if they're from your own faction. And you still need to explicitly group with not more, than 4 other players, if you want to cooperate with them. I'm not 100% sure, but I think Wow is only game, that has such design. Don't you think, that such design is obsoleted and isn't acceptable for PVE game with WarMode off? Don't you think, that in PVE game players should cooperate by default and compete only if they voluntary choose to?

My opinion. You don't have to agree with it. I just want to remind, that PVP is literally playing versus other players. Killing them isn't necessary in this case. You don't kill other players in card games or chess. Competing also falls into "playing against" category. Because you can also win or lose. Don't you think, that "cooperating to play versus NPC" - is only right way to play PVE game?

[Lochton]

Yeah, we will have cross-faction instances in 9.2. But outdoor stays the same. You still compete with other players by default, even if they're from your own faction. And you still need to explicitly group with not more, than 4 other players, if you want to cooperate with them. I'm not 100% sure, but I think Wow is only game, that has such design. Don't you think, that such design is obsoleted and isn't acceptable for PVE game with WarMode off? Don't you think, that in PVE game players should cooperate by default and compete only if they voluntary choose to?

My opinion. You don't have to agree with it. I just want to remind, that PVP is literally playing versus other players. Killing them isn't necessary in this case. You don't kill other players in card games or chess. Competing also falls into "playing against" category. Because you can also win or lose. Don't you think, that "cooperating to play versus NPC" - is only right way to play PVE game?

Not sure I get what you mean here. Competition by default is more a human issue than a game. We're not competing with anything in world content, except the other faction on tagging quest mobs, everything else is shared, even rares, and world bosses. The only true change of competing in world content is if you enable Warmode and have to fight off your foes, even that I call barely competition. Heck, the world content is almost able to be solo'd if you aren't fully under-geared, here I am talking certain rares but if you are average geared, then a lot of rares are just another kill.

Unless, as I read, you mean the existence of PvP is "competing by default" which it really isn't anymore, as Warmode has removed that issue, and if people want it, they can enable it, so competing would be more an opt-in in our current content.

[WowIsDead64]

Not sure I get what you mean here. Competition by default is more a human issue than a game. We're not competing with anything in world content, except the other faction on tagging quest mobs, everything else is shared, even rares, and world bosses. The only true change of competing in world content is if you enable Warmode and have to fight off your foes, even that I call barely competition. Heck, the world content is almost able to be solo'd if you aren't fully under-geared, here I am talking certain rares but if you are average geared, then a lot of rares are just another kill.

Unless, as I read, you mean the existence of PvP is "competing by default" which it really isn't anymore, as Warmode has removed that issue, and if people want it, they can enable it, so competing would be more an opt-in in our current content.

Simple example. We need to kill 10 mobs and there are just 10 mobs in location. Yeah, I know, that MMO shouldn't be designed like this, because any ARBITRARY MASSIVE amount of players should be able to do this quest at the same time. It wasn't such big problem in the past, when locations were big and players had freedom of movement there (for example via flying), but all of a sudden recently Blizzard started to push exactly this "sandbox" design more and more, like if they would want to push more competition on players. If we do this quest solo - no problem. But once other player arrives - we have to compete with him for that 10 mobs, because this means doing quest slower, unless mob respawn is immediate. This also usually causes "roadside riding" scenario, because there is no explicit queue there, so other player may want to complete quest quicker than us, even if he arrived later. And you should understand, that such behavior is TOXIC. Yeah, explicit grouping with this player solves this problem. But we still have to COMPETE BY DEFAULT and have to opt out of it via explicit grouping, that isn't always possible (for example in case of >5 players). Don't you think, that it's wrong design? Other games use "cooperate by default" and opting in for competition/PVP instead. For example other games have auto-grouping. This makes them much less toxic.

[Tuffshot]

Simple example. We need to kill 10 mobs and there are just 10 mobs in location. Yeah, I know, that MMO shouldn't be designed like this, because any ARBITRARY MASSIVE amount of players should be able to do this quest at the same time. It wasn't such big problem in the past, when locations were big and players had freedom of movement there (for example via flying), but all of a sudden recently Blizzard started to push exactly this "sandbox" design more and more, like if they would want to push more competition on players. If we do this quest solo - no problem. But once other player arrives - we have to compete with him for that 10 mobs, because this means doing quest slower, unless mob respawn is immediate. This also usually causes "roadside riding" scenario, because there is no explicit queue there, so other player may want to complete quest quicker than us, even if he arrived later. And you should understand, that such behavior is TOXIC. Yeah, explicit grouping with this player solves this problem. But we still have to COMPETE BY DEFAULT and have to opt out of it via explicit grouping, that isn't always possible (for example in case of >5 players). Don't you think, that it's wrong design? Other games use "cooperate by default" and opting in for competition/PVP instead. For example other games have auto-grouping. This makes them much less toxic.

There isn’t nearly as much competition anymore for this sort of thing. As long as you are the same faction, all you have to do is tag a mob before it dies and you still get credit for the kill as well as the loot for it. If the other player is on the other faction, then there is some competition there but that makes sense and should stay that way. The factions are in conflict so that competition can either be direct through combat, or indirect through resource denial (i.e tagging the mobs to complete my quest faster, denying you those kills to make you take an extra 2 minutes to finish).

[Schizoide]

I'm basically fine with the grouped player count limit on tagging mobs, although limiting so 2x4 groups are a thing that exist is silly.

I do strongly believe that faction-tagging should be removed out in the world. If you play as Alliance in any busy daily area (Korthia 2 months ago, etc) you're surrounded by a sea of grey tagged mobs. Meanwhile Horde players can just hit everything once and finish their dailies in 2 seconds. This really sucks. If you like it, it's a "tell me you play Horde without saying it out loud" type situation.

[Thaneo]

I can't really get what it is you are trying to say even after reading it... we have shared tags?

[Miffinat0r]

The thought of competition in an MMORPG is gross to me.

It's like imagine playing competitive DND. Ugh what an awful time that sounds like, or competitive Skyrim. Ewwww.

[cparle87]

There isn’t nearly as much competition anymore for this sort of thing. As long as you are the same faction, all you have to do is tag a mob before it dies and you still get credit for the kill as well as the loot for it. If the other player is on the other faction, then there is some competition there but that makes sense and should stay that way. The factions are in conflict so that competition can either be direct through combat, or indirect through resource denial (i.e tagging the mobs to complete my quest faster, denying you those kills to make you take an extra 2 minutes to finish).

Unless 5 people of your own faction, one person in a group of five such as people who have grouped for the quest, have tagged it, then it goes grey even for your own side. That's why there's those 2x4 and 4x4 farming groups.

[Schizoide]

Fundamentally, PvE is supposed to be cooperative. Anytime you groan to yourself when you see another player (with warmode off), that's bad. You should want to be around other players. It's a multiplayer game in a persistent world. If being around other players is a negative experience, the entire outdoor experience is degraded.

If you play Horde you probably have no clue what I'm talking about. You already play that game.

[Utrrabbit]

The thought of competition in an MMORPG is gross to me.

It's like imagine playing competitive DND. Ugh what an awful time that sounds like, or competitive Skyrim. Ewwww.

Competition in a mmorpg is LITERALLY the foundation of mmorpgs since day one.

[Miffinat0r]

Nope. MMORPGs were based on DnD. DND is not competitive at all. Competition is something a few players who became devs convinced themselves was right and now we have WoW as a lobby game, and the MMORPG market seems to finally be breaking of the fever pitch from it.

Anyone who says it's been the foundation hasn't been in this genre too long.

[Skirdus]

I honestly wouldn't mind the removal of faction-specific tagging at this point. If multiple players can tag the same mob without even being in the same group, why should it matter what faction they're in?

[Elegiac]

Competition in a mmorpg is LITERALLY the foundation of mmorpgs since day one.

The fact nearly every PVP-based MMORPG has tanked miserably would beg to differ. As would one of the most successful MMOs at the present which manages to make world content vastly more appealing in groups by not having quest spawns and gathering nodes be shared between players.

[unfilteredJW]

Competition in a mmorpg is LITERALLY the foundation of mmorpgs since day one.

This is so fucking wrong.

[MoanaLisa]

PVE Developers should be situationally design-aware and create content that leans into co-operative play.

[GreatNameForSmurfingExTee]

You don't kill other players in card games or chess. Competing also falls into "playing against" category. Because you can also win or lose. Don't you think, that "cooperating to play versus NPC" - is only right way to play PVE game?

Have you ever played chess?

[MoanaLisa]

Competition in a mmorpg is LITERALLY the foundation of mmorpgs since day one.

100% incorrect.

[GreatNameForSmurfingExTee]

100% incorrect.

Your statement? Yes, thats 100% incorrect

[Calfredd]

Your statement? Yes, thats 100% incorrect

Your statement? Yes, that's 100% incorrect.

[Miffinat0r]

Your statement? Yes, thats 100% incorrect

Amazing, everything you said was wrong.

This is the problem--moving MMORPGs into a competitive space kills the vibe of the genre. RPGs as competitive games? Wut? I cannot fathom going to sit down at a table playing "competitive" DND. Like is that the game where players hate one another and fight then have the right to fight the DM?