2022-2023 NFL Thread

[exochaft]

FWIW, the guy called for the holding said he was definitely holding the WR, he just "hoped they'd let me get away with it."

That, to me, is the bigger problem. A penalty can be called on every play, if you call them by the letter of the law. What you need to be is consistent. The refs didn't throw that many flags the whole game, not one hold/PI/illegal contact type call all game. All the flags were definitive, procedural fouls like false starts, offsides, and delay of games. So to not call defensive holding all game when both teams were playing press man coverage, and then call one on the game-winning drive with under 3 minutes to play? That's absurd.

But while it's absurd, even according to the DB, it was a correct call. I, personally, still think it was a weak call considering the lack of holding calls (offensive AND defensive) that game.

Yeah, this is why I really am disliking the instant replay officiating, especially when their New York officiating office stops the game to reexamine plays. In the end, everything is subjective and things like "what is a catch?" get so overly complicated to where they have to stop the game for extended periods of time because it's overly complicated. Picking and choosing to review calls on an arbitrary bases, especially when they won't review non-calls that are blatant with extensive instant replay evidence, just sours the entire experience for fans and teams.

As you mentioned in the part I snipped out, consistency goes a long way towards the players and the fans trusting the integrity of the game when it comes to officiating. Unfortunately, there's been a lot of cases in the playoffs and superbowl that hilighted how inconsistent the refs (both on the the ground and in the New York booth) really are. This middle ground situation where calls that get scrutinized down to frame-by-frame replay are decided arbitrarily and non-calls just are let go feels like the worst option. Personally, I'd rather go back to just the refs on the ground making the calls and that's it. No New York booth, no challenge flags, just call it as they see it. Will they get it right all the time? No, of course not, but it's better than arbitrarily letting things go or overanalyzing/overcomplicating things. If anything, you can use all the instant replay and AI tech to judge how the refs were after the game, so you can make decisions about their quality as refs and for anti-cheating/scandal analysis.

[MCMLXXXII]

He actually threw it to the open spot on the field. My EU brother learning american football, QBs throw to a spot, not to a player. The fact the pass was so off course should tell you holding of some form actually happened.

But this is besides the point, you clearly don't understand the difference in holding vs PI if you think Mahomes needs to throw that pass to get the flag.

No need to be condescending. He threw it past the end zone. That's not an open spot on the field. He threw the pass and then yelled holding to the ref.

[Tech614]

No need to be condescending. He threw it past the end zone. That's not an open spot on the field. He threw the pass and then yelled holding to the ref.

He didn't throw it past the end zone, what are you even talking about. You think this is condescending because real actual things are being pointed out instead of false claims?

1) You don't need to throw a pass to get a holding call.

2) The pass was thrown right to the end zone where the receiver likely is if they aren't held.

"Mahomes threw the pass out of the end zone to draw a flag" is just false. It was not only in the end zone the pass was irrelevant to the penalty cause it's not PI.

I get having an issue with defensive backfield holding to begin with but that's a problem with the penalty. Let's save the conspiracy theories that Mahomes crafted some evil scheme to get the flag.

[MCMLXXXII]

He didn't throw it past the end zone, what are you even talking about. You think this is condescending because real actual things are being pointed out instead of false claims?

1) You don't need to throw a pass to get a holding call.

2) The pass was thrown right to the end zone where the receiver likely is if they aren't held.

"Mahomes threw the pass out of the end zone to draw a flag" is just false. It was not only in the end zone the pass was irrelevant to the penalty cause it's not PI.

I get having an issue with defensive backfield holding to begin with but that's a problem with the penalty. Let's save the conspiracy theories that Mahomes crafted some evil scheme to get the flag.

Again, I'm not calling this a conspiracy. Might be lost in translation due to my lack of knowledge of the English language. I just watched the replay, and there was no way the receiver was going to catch the ball, even without the "holding".
FWIW I'm confident enough I'm not learning football after 30 years of watching. And I do know the difference between holding and PI. It's not about Mahomes yelling something. It's about bad calls by the officials.

[Tech614]

Again, I'm not calling this a conspiracy. Might be lost in translation due to my lack of knowledge of the English language. I just watched the replay, and there was no way the receiver was going to catch the ball, even without the "holding".
FWIW I'm confident enough I'm not learning football after 30 years of watching. And I do know the difference between holding and PI. It's not about Mahomes yelling something. It's about bad calls by the officials.

I mean like it or not when a player clearly has his jersey grabbed, arm/torso hooked and comes out of his route cut slow because of it you can't accurately judge what is catchable or not. Considering the ball was thrown in a spot that absolutely could of been a sideline TD catch I'm gonna trust Mahomes knows his receiver and where he should be on that play. That ball was absolutely not thrown away or it would of been in the stands.

Bradberry himself even admits it was holding and he was hoping they wouldn't call it. Your problem seems to be with defensive holding in general, which does have it's issues and should be revised but by the book the call was correct. If we're being completely honest here the problem is the penalty itself not the call. People are upset with the call but no one has refuted that it was actually holding and the evidence shows otherwise...

[MCMLXXXII]

I mean like it or not when a player clearly has his jersey grabbed, arm/torso hooked and comes out of his route cut slow because of it you can't accurately judge what is catchable or not. Considering the ball was thrown in a spot that absolutely could of been a sideline TD catch I'm gonna trust Mahomes knows his receiver and where he should be on that play. That ball was absolutely not thrown away or it would of been in the stands.

Bradberry himself even admits it was holding and he was hoping they wouldn't call it. Your problem seems to be with defensive holding in general, which does have it's issues and should be revised but by the book the call was correct. If we're being completely honest here the problem is the penalty itself not the call. People are upset with the call but no one has refuted that it was actually holding and the evidence shows otherwise...

Yeah, I'll rest this. To me it's seems like he only had his hand on his back. Apparently it wasn't si. Still I feel robbed of an almost perfect SB ending.

[Logwyn]

I mean like it or not when a player clearly has his jersey grabbed, arm/torso hooked and comes out of his route cut slow because of it you can't accurately judge what is catchable or not. Considering the ball was thrown in a spot that absolutely could of been a sideline TD catch I'm gonna trust Mahomes knows his receiver and where he should be on that play. That ball was absolutely not thrown away or it would of been in the stands.

Bradberry himself even admits it was holding and he was hoping they wouldn't call it. Your problem seems to be with defensive holding in general, which does have it's issues and should be revised but by the book the call was correct. If we're being completely honest here the problem is the penalty itself not the call. People are upset with the call but no one has refuted that it was actually holding and the evidence shows otherwise...

I bet if we watched the game that between 5-10 times the refs let the same exact play go with no flag. You aren't calling simple contact all game then at the end you decide to step in and call it. I think that why it looks like the Refs are scripting the games. Also, some teams get these calls all the time and others do not get them. One reason I stopped watching the NBA. They do not call the game with two sets of rules one the superstars one for everyone else. I do not care if its Meathomes or Shady or 3rd string QB #5 call the game the same from start to finish and by the rules.

[Pendulous]

I can't speak for previous plays, but the replay they didn't show on TV had another angle clearly showing him grabbing and pulling the jersey. Looked iffy live because they only showed the one side, for some reason.

[Grube]

Only thing I saw about the game is Carl Cheffer's crew had a controversial call near the end and the field was awful. Neither one of those is surprising at all.

The two best defenses of this season and we're one touchdown away of a Super Bowl points record...

Not sure where you are getting this from. The Chiefs defense was mid pack and the Eagles weren't close to top 2 either.

[ProphetFlume]

Why is there disbelief that qbs throw balls to force refs to see a penalty because they’re following the ball? It’s a pretty common thing. Like on the level of going for a “free play” after someone jumps on a hard count.

[Espo]

Only thing I saw about the game is Carl Cheffer's crew had a controversial call near the end and the field was awful. Neither one of those is surprising at all.



Not sure where you are getting this from. The Chiefs defense was mid pack and the Eagles weren't close to top 2 either.

???? The Eagles literally finished #2 in YPG allowed (1 yard behind the #1 49ers). They allowed the least passing yards, had a near record setting amount of sacks, and I believe finished top 5 in defensive DVOA. Their run D was middle-of-the-pack, but shows up in the overall. There's so many ways to size up a top defense in the league due to the situations they're put in, and you can absolutely argue they may not be #2, but saying they weren't close to #2 is objectively false.

[Gracin]

Henne retires after 15 seasons, and 4 with the Chiefs. As a Chiefs fan, he wasn't the amazing talent that Mahomes is, but he was solid and without him I don't think the Chiefs would have made it past Jacksonville.

Maybe Brady wants to step in as a backup for a season? Bahahaha

[Tech614]

Why is there disbelief that qbs throw balls to force refs to see a penalty because they’re following the ball? It’s a pretty common thing. Like on the level of going for a “free play” after someone jumps on a hard count.

A pass is thrown down field on an offsides jump because its a free play so why not... You think refs don't throw the flag on an offsides if they don't throw a deep shot to take advantage of the free play? I can't dude, what is this logic.

The hold was already over before the pass was thrown. How on earth is the pass making the ref see the hold? If the man was holding while the pass is in the air then its PI lol. Man why do people got to use some bat shit insane logic to try and explain something so simple.

- - - Updated - - -

I bet if we watched the game that between 5-10 times the refs let the same exact play go with no flag. You aren't calling simple contact all game then at the end you decide to step in and call it. I think that why it looks like the Refs are scripting the games. Also, some teams get these calls all the time and others do not get them. One reason I stopped watching the NBA. They do not call the game with two sets of rules one the superstars one for everyone else. I do not care if its Meathomes or Shady or 3rd string QB #5 call the game the same from start to finish and by the rules.

I see ticky tack holding calls like that all the time in almost every NFL game all years. Not just with star players involved either. It's a problem with the penalty itself and the rule needs revised to 1) not give an automatic first down and 2) not be a penalty unless its clear and obvious impeding the receiver. #1 just to protect against bad judgement calls from #2.

The problem seems to be people hyper focusing on this cause it happened at a key point in the super bowl when if it happened at some random time in the 3rd quarter no one would be focusing on it the same way yet these calls happen all over games in the NFL every week. It's a bad rule, it's not a bad call. You can't blame a ref for enforcing the rule book as it is written.

[ProphetFlume]

A pass is thrown down field on an offsides jump because its a free play so why not... You think refs don't throw the flag on an offsides if they don't throw a deep shot to take advantage of the free play? I can't dude, what is this logic.

I was comparing how simple and regular the occurrence is.

Idk if you watch football if you don’t think qbs throwing to highlight penalties is a thing. It’s that common and mentioned. Not even going to argue about it as I might as well argue that qbs spike the ball to stop the clock.

[Tech614]

I was comparing how simple and regular the occurrence is.

Idk if you watch football if you don’t think qbs throwing to highlight penalties is a thing. It’s that common and mentioned. Not even going to argue about it as I might as well argue that qbs spike the ball to stop the clock.

It's not common at all unless you're talking about a PI being baited by underthrowing a ball which is not highlighting a penalty but baiting one. If you want to bring up a "you don't watch football" meme well that would certainly be a weird thing to bring after claiming a QB has to throw the ball to get an offsides or holding flag.

[ProphetFlume]

“Why would you spike tha ball lol. It wastes a down!!”

[eschatological]

It's not common at all unless you're talking about a PI being baited by underthrowing a ball which is not highlighting a penalty but baiting one. If you want to bring up a "you don't watch football" meme well that would certainly be a weird thing to bring after claiming a QB has to throw the ball to get an offsides or holding flag.

It's common with good QBs. Brady perfected it. When you see tight coverage with no over the top help, you know the DB has to be physical, you sometimes throw the "oh I'm throwing it where my WR would have been if he wasn't held" ball because it has no risk of being intercepted if they don't throw the flag, and you fish for the flag. It may not even be the first read on the play, but the great QBs diagnose it and get easy first downs.

I generally agree with the notion that it's a weak rule. The problem with NFL contact rules (this is true for RTP and holding on both sides of the ball) is that it's all-or-nothing (what we have now, where even the slightest contact gets you in trouble), or you're relying on a ref to make a judgement call not only on whether there was holding or not, but whether there was impeding of the WR. The latter is currently the standard for PI, strangely enough, and there's dozens of non-calls/calls every week about whether the DB was impeding the WR or not.

It's a contact sport where offenses, based on timing and free releases, are the most exciting product to put out there. To try and promote that offense, they make even ticky-tack contact illegal. It is what it is. I don't want to go back to the 70s style of football with Larry Csonka running FB power up the middle for 3-4 yards at a time to win games 13-7.

[Tech614]

It's common with good QBs. Brady perfected it. When you see tight coverage with no over the top help, you know the DB has to be physical, you sometimes throw the "oh I'm throwing it where my WR would have been if he wasn't held" ball because it has no risk of being intercepted if they don't throw the flag, and you fish for the flag. It may not even be the first read on the play, but the great QBs diagnose it and get easy first downs.

I generally agree with the notion that it's a weak rule. The problem with NFL contact rules (this is true for RTP and holding on both sides of the ball) is that it's all-or-nothing (what we have now, where even the slightest contact gets you in trouble), or you're relying on a ref to make a judgement call not only on whether there was holding or not, but whether there was impeding of the WR. The latter is currently the standard for PI, strangely enough, and there's dozens of non-calls/calls every week about whether the DB was impeding the WR or not.

It's a contact sport where offenses, based on timing and free releases, are the most exciting product to put out there. To try and promote that offense, they make even ticky-tack contact illegal. It is what it is. I don't want to go back to the 70s style of football with Larry Csonka running FB power up the middle for 3-4 yards at a time to win games 13-7.

Actually with no safety help over the top in a physical 1 on 1 coverage it's more common to underthrow the ball because the receiver has to stop to come to the ball and there is a high chance of the DB running into the WR before the ball gets there and getting a PI. The opposite of what you're saying, and Brady did this way more often than whatever you're claiming(every QB does this, they learn the trick in college if not in high school).

Most holding calls happen on plays where the ball wasn't even thrown to where the receiver is held. It's a weak ass rule and it doesn't need a QB to make the ref aware of it, it's a penalty regardless of where the ball is thrown. It's one of the biggest problems for defenders moving from college to the NFL cause generally that contact is not called in college. OFC college also has it's fair share of dumb rules like targeting(ejection part not the rule itself which is good).

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Well the Colts managed to muzzle Irsay long enough to hire Steichen, we'll see if Saturday being a position coach ends up part of that deal.

And the Cardinals were not terrified by that Super Bowl ineptitude and hired Gannon, making the Eagles the first team since the 2013 Bengals to lose both coordinators to HC gigs in one offseason.

[cordrann]

Brady also had a lot more help than Mahomes is likely to get. Consistent top 10 defenses and solid offensive lines. But to this point in their respective careers, Mahomes has been better than Brady and it's not remotely close.

At this point in their respective careers Brady was 3 for 3 in winning Superbowls. Brady didn't have anywhere remotely close to the skilled players Mahomes has had in Kelce and Hill this early in his career, and the rules were much more friendly to defenses. In the season before this one (at age 44) Tom Brady threw for more yards and more touchdowns with a higher completion percentage than Mahomes did either this year or last year while playing for a team with an inferior set of weapons and an inferior offensive coaching staff.

Please stop comparing these two guys, it is a baseless comparison at this point, and it will probably never be a relevant comparison given how much the game changes over time.