Are they at the bottom? And even if they are someone has to be. How large is the gap between them and the next one up? How large is the total gap between them at the best spec? There's lots of information we'd need to make a decision like this. Wait. Blizzard has this information... /hmm
The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.
someone always have to be at the bottom, the gap between BM and Destro lock (looking at warcraft logs now for M anduin for example), is 30k difference, which is almost double the dmg a BM can push out. Now i know destros are busted but i dont think we have ever seen such disparency between top and bottom speccs. I dont say BM should be buffed to high heavens but they really are struggling alot, the beast cleave cap for example gutted them pretty hard, only reason we see survival doing stupid amounts of dmg is due to uncapped aoe and busted tier sets.
So it would be nice if blizzard tries to balance it better but they have kinda put themselfs into a corner due all borrowed power aswell.
I love how many people disagreed with me when I started this thread and now BM got first a 3% Buff and now another 6% buff, resulting in even MORE than a 10% buff compared to the initial situation where people really were saying "it's fine"
It amazes me people keep repeating this ignorant stawman. Nobody is asking to be number one. All that is being asked for is to be on par with the other two specs in the class. And saying "BM should never be #1" is elitist nonsense built entirely on "I hate the spec so it should never be better than my favorite spec".
People need to stop spinning this thread into "BM's want to top the meters". It is disingenuous and dishonest,
I kinda also love that when people keep talking about being on par with the other 2 specs, they usually mean the exact same dmg or higher than them. But they dont explain what they are willing to sacrifice to achieve that considering theres rly no punishment for BM hunters except the rotation like everyone else. They can shoot while moving, they have 0 cast timers, they are ranged. What would they sacrifice for it?
More dishonest BS. Nobody is asking to better and nobody is saying it should be equal. ALl that is being asked for is to be CLOSE to the other specs, not the massive gap there is not
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So, There is nothing to sacrifice. When the gap is that big with the two other specs not topping the meters, you don't need to sacrifice. Just bring it to the point where the gap is not really noticeable.
You dont need buffs some classes just need nerfed, the hardest content in the game is cleared with all specs so all it comes down to is players wanting to get higher on the dps meters, its not about balance its about the player feeling like they cant beat other players.
Balance between the classes will also never happen, there is way too many classes and performance is also dependant on the fight.
Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-06-04 at 04:14 PM.
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Literally saying dont need to be equal but also says "not noticeable" difference basically means equal or so close that you cant see the difference. You keep saying dishonest BS when you keep contradicting your statement.
How much closer do you want them to be? 1%? 2%? 5%? Before saying "closer" you might want to actually make that kind of statement unless you want to be extremely dishonest. U want the cake and the cookie but no punishments for it.
Isnt BM stronger in ST? Do that mean we should nerf that aswell?
You are putting words in my mouth in an attempt to get a "gotcha" moment. I have not contradicted anything. A 1% to 2% difference is not noticeable, but it sure as hell is not equal. You knew what I meant. The dishonesty? Coming from you.
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It's a lot harder for the bottom specs because they aren't being invited to groups because they are considered not viable. The fact that a couple of the spec managed to clear it does not mean they all have equal access. BM's by and large are not being taken into raids. Gee I wonder why that is?
This is also a self-fulfilling prophecy. Better players will always gravitate toward the better specs (especially if there are multiple options, like hunters), which means that not only is BM worse, it is played by worse players.
I'm all in favor of all specs being viable for all content but that's especially never going to happen with pure DPS classes. Given the choice, it's far more important for windwalker or ret or havoc (all the only dps options for an entire class) to be viable than every single spec from a pure DPS class.
Put another way, the bottom of the meters pretty much always needs to be the "bad" specs from pure DPS classes.
A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore
Im not putting words in your mouth, im trying to clearly explain to you that your definition of "not noticeable" is either equal or 1-2% behind which is still pretty stupid close unless you make BM hunters sacrifice something for that option. Its not even about "gotcha" moment that you seem so proud of saying.
BM hunters got no downsides which the other 2 got. Even if you want to say they arent even "noticeable" downsides its still downsides.
You still didnt say if you would want to nerf the single target on BMs if so.
Keep screaming out "dishonest" and "bullshit" as much as you want, doesnt change the fact that BM hunters are viable. Just your concept of viable means eating both the cookie and the cake.
Some classes are overperforming so you dont need a buff, everyone is 280 ilvl can clear the raid if they are skilled enough with any reasonable raid setup. When you dont compared yourself to a warlock the difference is on average 10-15% between most classes at most, that is reasonable.
If a raid wont take you then its not worth joining in the first place, single target damage matters sometimes alot more than classes being able to cheese the meters, BM is designed to be mostly single target, blizz could do something to give it more cleave dmg.
Buffing classes actually nerfs current content, the classes are already performing far beyond the raids needs to clear it.
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Since when? Where is it law where those specs to be the only ones that are viable? And why do what you call "bad specs" have to be bad? This is utterly ridiculous and nobody always need to be the "bad" specs. You are basically setting your own arbitrary rules.
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Only because of gear. How about at the start of the tier? Nobody should have to wait until they massively out gear it before they are even taken in a raid.
Without the tier bonuses then the OP classes are not nearly as good so the difference is small so what are you complaining about, everyone knows some classes are just scaled too good or thier set bonuses are just OP, single target damage is still needed and is very important, on an AOE heavy fight BM should be miles behind on total damage.
Buffs dont solve the actual problem and every class has way more performance than in needed to clear content.
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Something will always be first, and something will always be last. We agree on this, right?
The point is that since something will always be last, it is very unfair if those "bad specs" are the ones where people have no other choice like ret/ww/havoc. Windwalker being at the bottom in 8.3 for a year is one of the biggest balance embarrassments in the history of the game, imo. The only dps choice for a whole class was junk! Meanwhile frost mages weren't great either, but at least a mage player could just play fire and be the most OP spec in the game. Monks didn't have that choice without completely rerolling.
That is what I meant. There is always going to be a bottom, and that bottom probably has to be filled with pure dps specs since they have other options.
A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore
It is viable.