What do you think the future of the Forsaken will be under Calia Menethil? [Spoilers]

[Feanoro]

I mean that's the point, the Alliance isn't really any better than the Horde

Nonsense, the Alliance isn't nearly as good at racking up the body count and destroying cities.

I get it though, some Horde fans think playing the evil faction makes them bad people and thus they have to try to make the factions equivalent. It's ok to enjoy fictional villains, it doesn't say anything about your morals. Got it? Great, now you're ready to see the factions as they're actually written.

[Ersula]

No, there is a difference between the Horde, by the actions of Sylvanas, committing a genocide at Teldrassil, and their previous attempts at geonocide during Mists of Pandaria, and the Alliance sometimes doing thing that are bad. Even in the example you gave, if I were to accept that the Alliance had used biological terrorism at Zul'dazar, that doesn't mean there is some moral equivalence between that and the decades of the Forsaken using plague bombs and biological and chemical agents.

That's a pretty liberal use of the word decades, don't you think? The Forsaken came into being in the year 22. The current wow storyline is in the year 35.

Your pearl-clutching with chemical weapons is pretty selective: Dwarves & Gnomes use napalm. The only difference is the fun green color & that the blight actually creates new life from what's left behind. Why are chemical agents considered worse than bombing a residential area in the Battle of Zuldazar? Why is destroying another residential area considered by the Alliance a valid response to arrest Sylvanas in the Battle of Lordaeron? 1000 years of systematically driving trolls from their ancestral lands.

The only reason you think the Horde is worse is a matter of framing.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Your pearl-clutching with chemical weapons is pretty selective: Dwarves & Gnomes use napalm. The only difference is the fun green color & that the blight actually creates new life from what's left behind.

So your argument is that the Dwarves use of napalm, which is used to make some explosives' and flamethrowers, is equivalent to the Forsaken's blight, which they use at every single engagement, melts the flesh off the still living targets, and causes long-term deleterious effects to the land and things living on or near the afflicted land, and that the only difference between them and their use is that blight is green. Neat.

Why are chemical agents considered worse than bombing a residential area in the Battle of Zuldazar? Why is destroying another residential area considered by the Alliance a valid response to arrest Sylvanas in the Battle of Lordaeron? 1000 years of systematically driving trolls from their ancestral lands.

No one is saying that the blight in and of itself is equivalent to attacks on Zul'dazar, but it has historically been used in ways similar or worse than what occurred in the Battle of Dazar'alor. I also don't understand why people seem to forget that the Forsaken literally released abominations and tried to smuggle blight into the Boralus slums where only civilians lived, and this occurred at about this time as well. Bad things were rampant at this time.

Moreover, for someone who seems to be on the "anyone who disagrees with me is pearl-clutching" meme train, you seem to be very defensive about the Alliance attacking a Horde capital. No one is saying that the Alliance isn't wrong when they do something bad, but when you can't reasonably compare someone doing an evil action once to someone who has done it habitually; the Alliance and Horde both do bad things, but the Horde has a pattern of committing war crimes.

The only reason you think the Horde is worse is a matter of framing.

No, it's not just "framing", it's that Blizzard has made a concerted effort to white-wash the actions the Alliance have taken. Two examples of this have even been discussed in the thread, such as SI:7's unprovoked killing of goblin miners in Silithus and Hawthorne attacking Taurajo. The Horde has basically been setup to take any and all blame for its own actions, and black marks on the Alliance's record have been consistently retconned into the Alliance either acting in a reasonable manner or acting in retaliation to some wrong (i.e.: Blizzard providing out-of-game post hoc rationales for Alliance actions).

[Stormwolf64]

Their future is forsaken

[Mehrunes]

Genn and Rogers were not colluding with the Legion. By your logic, we shouldn't have fought the Twilight's Hammer in Cataclysm because we were in the midst of the Alliance-Horde War and fighting them was also effectively aiding the other faction. It doesn't hold weight.

Except there's a pretty stark difference between "colluding" and "effectively aiding". The former requires intent, the latter is result-based (hence the "effectively" part). But I guess when you were forced to move the goalposts at least two times in regards to this tangent by now, including the first time that was caused by you misrepresenting Anduin's orders, this blatant misrepresentation is just par for the course.

When talking about someone's motivation, one is almost certainly talking about that motivation from the point of view of the character. When I'm talking about them acting on behalf of Alliance interests, I thought it inferred that it was what they thought Alliance interests are. Regardless, it seems clear now. As for the conjecture about what was seen from the deck of the Skyfire, no Alliance member makes any mention of the Horde being overrun, with Genn and Jaina both claiming the Horde left them to die there. Regardless of what they did or did not see, I'm not claiming that Genn and Rogers are making logical, unbiased assessments. I'm only presenting the points of view that they show surrounding Varian's death (Genn literally says "Damn the Horde for serving us up to the Legion!" after the scenario as the quest completion dialogue) and the preparations for the assault into Stormheim. You can criticize them all you want for the nonsensicality of their views, but I never set out to prove that they were rational or that the attack was even the proper course of action given the situation. I've only--hopefully--illustrated that they were motivated by seeing the Horde as a threat that needed dealt with.

I'm aware of Genn's nonsensical views. But that's not really relevant to the topic, because that's not all that you said. You immediately linked the "they were acting in Alliance's interests" thing to the idea that it'd be hard to punish them for what they did. At which point their personal motivation becomes less relevant than what Genn had for lunch on the day Rogers got her first period and the actual benefit to the Alliance jumps into the spotlight. And that benefit was not only not there, but they acted in stark opposition of it. I wonder if pre-modern states ever punished people for doing just that, even if they personally saw things differently... Or hell, you don't even need to go that far back in history. Snowden is considered a traitor by many (including some prominent members of Congress) and actively pursued by US government for acting against the country's interests (even though the program he exposed was found to be illegal by a court two years ago) and he waged no war against it nor assassinated any of its leaders, all the while he thought he was acting for the public good.

And gee, Alliance warhawks that were so anti-Horde they that they violated their High King's orders to start shit with the Horde or left the Kirin Tor after throwing a tantrum didn't mention things that would be detrimental to their desires. That truly holds a lot of value. But even that immense value changes neither the fact that the Horde position was overrun and that there were Legion's spaceships looming over it as seen in the Broken Shore scenario (with the spaceships being seen in the Alliance scenario as well, while the arrival of the Felguards right at the edge of the cliff - where the Horde's backline was stationed previously - mere moments after the Horde fled already indicated the overrun bit in the final cinematic) nor that the ancient magics of how line of sight works would make that visible from the Alliance's gunship up in the air.

This still doesn't show 1) that the agreement about the Broken Shore was still in effect (the terms of which we never really get) and 2) that Stormheim is the catalyst for the dissolution of their cooperation. While I don't deny the Armies of Legionfall only come about after Stormheim, discussion of Horde/Alliance conflict is presented before then. Khadgar alludes to the world going to war in Dalaran. Jaina likewise discusses the Horde arming themselves in the same breath she mentions the Legion's advance, suggesting that, at least to her, the two are equal threats to the Alliance. While it's clear Tattersail didn't expect an Alliance gunship to attack at that specific point in time, there's nothing to suggest that they were in violation of some pact. I can't prove some pact wasn't in place, but given no one makes mention of a violation of some ceasefire or agreement on either side and there was a communication breakdown after the Broken Shore, I think you'll be hard pressed to prove one did exist.

Khadgar says that as an argument to reintroduce the Horde to the Kirin Tor instead of keeping the factions divided. It's quite clearly an argument in favor of mending fences to prevent war from breaking out in the first place, because if the factions were already at war right then and there reintroducing a bunch of Sunreavers back into the Kirin Tor, especially with no input from either the Warchief of the Horde or the High King of the Alliance, wouldn't have had any impact on whether the world remained at war with itself or not. It's also something he only says to the Alliance players, because it's almost as if the Alliance had a teeny tiny problem about jumping to idiotic conclusions about the Broken Shore at the time. As for Jaina, she was such a poor judge of the Horde that your very same Khadgar called her out on her bias at the end of that very same quest, clearly indicating she was blinded by her desire for vengeance.

Also, since you made it apparently clear you're replying to some alternate universe version of my posts, let me restate that in the very same post you're replying to here I said that it'd have been desirable for the Alliance to continue a cooperation with the Horde due to the whole apocalypse thing and that the prospect of which is what Genn ruined with his attack, all the while I repeatedly referred to the Horde as some version of "just recently allied" to the Alliance. The closest (not to be confused with close) I got to your version of the agreement still being in effect and the Stormheim being the catalyst for its dissolution was me saying that, unlike the lead up to the War of Thorns, the factions were not in open conflict.

At which point I'm sorry to break the basics of the argumentation to you, but you're the one trying to make a positive claim here. Yet all you've got so far was Khadgar's attempt at mending fences, Jaina being a witness so unreliable your previous source discredited her outlook, Anduin being unsure about the Horde, Sylvanas saying the Alliance may attack at some unspecified point in the future and mentioning the Warden Towers. The very same Warden Towers that only had World Quests related to them. The very same World Quests that, you know, were only max level content at the time of Legion's release and as such were highly unlikely (to say the least) to chronologically take place before the leveling questlines. And none of that is particularly convincing to put it mildly.

In any case, unless you find it in you to reply to what's actually said to you instead of what whimsical fantasies you construct about it in your head for some god-forsaken reason, please reconsider replying.

Today I learned that, in Mehrunes' world, attacking the Horde is colluding with the Legion. Stated another way, he will twist the meaning of words to defend the Horde, all while hypocritically berating and insulting others about word definitions.

Good of him to let us know he stands with Blizzard on the whole "victims shouldn't seek justice" message in WoW. May I suggest anyone actually interested in lore discussion not allow him to derail yet another thread?

Sorry, but @Aresk's stark misrepresentation of my posts isn't "my world". Also, last time I checked I found that messaging of the WoW's story to be utterly idiotic. You know, the same view I hold about all of WoW's misfired attempts at moralizing.

Because if you were not liking it, you wouldnt praise it compared to Garroshe’s actions.

But you did.

So in turn, i praise Anduin’s flawless foresight and Calia’s impeccable charisma.

You can try to be clever all you want, but you will never succeed. You either subscribe to all Blizz bullshit writing or not praise any of it. But you never pick one, you bring up whatever supports your narrative this moment, and then try to mislead people or change the topic when it reaches an uncomfortable point of “but then the rest of this shit is also “acceptable”.

Pointing out that Sylvanas was vastly more effective in attacking Ashenvale than Garrosh isn't praise, it's a mere statement of fact. Which conveys no subjective feelings like whether I like that war or not, robbing the rest of your reply of any merit. Not that it had any to begin with, because it was a complete non-sequitur even within the scope of your other fallacy here. Not to mention the part where you can't even stay consistent on whether I supposedly praised the war itself or Blizzard's writing.

So your argument is that the Dwarves use of napalm, which is used to make some explosives' and flamethrowers, is equivalent to the Forsaken's blight, which they use at every single engagement, melts the flesh off the still living targets, and causes long-term deleterious effects to the land and things living on or near the afflicted land, and that the only difference between them and their use is that blight is green. Neat.

What do you think napalm does? The whole point of napalm is that it's sticky (and also that it's liquid so it can first flow into trenches or other hiding spots). Which leads to the same melting-of-the-flesh shebang if the thing it stuck to happens to be a living target. Then there's the part where both factions employ users of fire magic that make napalm look like sparklers by comparison, Death Knights infecting their targets with all kinds of diseases or Warlocks shredding their targets' souls and none of that ever gets as much as a squeak even from the champion of all that's pure like Anduin. The idea that Blight is some special kind of evil within the Warcraft universe doesn't hold up to scrutiny, even if it's been expressed by characters in said universe. Also, not all strains of Blight cause long-term effects on the land and most strains can be cleaned by the Forasken. The only strain for which it was confirmed not to be possible in the short term, was the one used in Southshore. And that strain was that strong by accident.

No, it's not just "framing", it's that Blizzard has made a concerted effort to white-wash the actions the Alliance have taken. Two examples of this have even been discussed in the thread, such as SI:7's unprovoked killing of goblin miners in Silithus and Hawthorne attacking Taurajo. The Horde has basically been setup to take any and all blame for its own actions, and black marks on the Alliance's record have been consistently retconned into the Alliance either acting in a reasonable manner or acting in retaliation to some wrong (i.e.: Blizzard providing out-of-game post hoc rationales for Alliance actions).

That isn't entirely correct. While Blizzard does occasionally provide post hoc explanation for the things they wrote for the Alliance all the while they want to pretend it's the champion of all that's good, that's really rather rare. More often than not they just brush the whole thing under the carpet and simply don't mention it without ever trying to actually retcon it. The attempt at killing the Goblin refugees that were witnesses on their attack on Thrall, to use your own example. It's never been retconned, it just hasn't been referenced again, because when it comes to the Alliance Blizzard wants to have its cake and eat it too. The same goes to things like how the Alliance was in the wrong in Alterac Valley, how Theramore's forces were attacking the Horde for two years across the entire central Kalimdor before Garrosh blew it up and so on.

[guro-tchai]

responding to several posts, incl the one from three days ago. soz, was busy. there's a fundamental error: Alliance and Horde are not the same.

Metzen confirmed they are the same years ago.

name's different (of Lordaeron/Grand), members are different. one is the ideological successor of the other, but is not responsible for what's happening in the capital of the previous organization.

The Blood Elves join the Horde only after the events of the Ghostline questline. Also, the Alliance outright invaded and occupied several areas of Thalassian territory and their sabotage was actually the least offending part of the whole thing.

there is no definitive proof that the Alliance sabotaged the sanctum - on the contrary, the missive in dwarven denies it, only lamenting the recklessness of blood elf sanctum usage; the overseer of the sanctum admits that the most likely cause of the accident is their own actions. besides, i'm not sure NE spies were even capable of that.

but why were they even in Quel'thalas, you might ask?
i say, it was the Alliance's duty to invade to protect Azeroth from the Legion - and instead of a full-scale invasion, they launched a timid reconnaissance force. right.

before that, last time Tyrande heard of Kael'thas and his warriors was when she helped him out in Lordaeron. a couple years later, a blood elf in Stonetalon asked the Horde to massacre keepers and dryads to help demon worshippers in Jaedenar. but that's an isolated incident, #notallbloodelves, right?
and then a spaceship with good relatives of demons drops right next to Teldrassil, and it's infiltrated by a solid blood elf force which receives its' orders and reinforcement from Kael'thas in Outland and collaborates with the Legion. dude's still the king of Quel'thalas, his statues are all around the place - as are the fel crystals. naturally, anyone with that information assumes that Silvermoon is about to become the next Zin'Azshari and kaldorei will have to once again save the world from the quel'dorei. but no, it's just observation - met with an insane aggression instead of an "inshnu-ala, night elves" that Kael used to greet them with.

but hey, renewal, right?

The one that "abused Dalaran" there was Jaina. She aided the Night Elves first

keeping the Bell in Darnassus isn't an aid, it's a burden. the Alliance would never have used it (although should have), while Garrosh used it immediately.
Alliance and Horde are not the same - the former's vision of the world peace is mutual respectful coexistence; the latter's is the former's annihilation. because of that, instead of exploding the Underkeep after the Nagrandian Ogre's defeat and decapitating the Horde right there, they just walked away.
it's completely okay to prevent various Ogres from getting their hands on wunderwaffles, Alliance just has to act with way more tenacity.

Then there's the part where she had no authority whatsoever to perform the Purge

you can imagine that she invoked emergency powers. or performed a coup. anything goes when the goal is the world peace.

The actions of the Horde don't negate Alliance's own crimes though.

it's not a war crime if you had fun while doing it you're working for the world peace.

You left out the part where Hawthorne was an incompetent idiot that couldn't do any intel gathering about the geopolitics of the region and he funneled those Tauren to the territory of Quillboars that hated them and, consequently, slaughtered them while they were fleeing from Taurajo.

idem. also, glad that a conscious Horde adventurer came about and saved the tauren. the cause of the world peace gets an unexpected ally from the other side, huh?

Also, Baine is such an Alliance asset the game eventually gave him an Alliance tag at the end of the last war and he'd excuse his human masters even if they impaled every orphan in Orgrimmar in front of him.

not gonna happen - world peace and all. although should

But all Horde was doing at the time was dig in Silithus.

identical to the Divine Bell: prevent the Undead Ogre from getting her hands on the wunderwaffle.

You mean the Baine that has openly betrayed the Horde on multiple occasions

you mean the Horde has betrayed him? Horde is a family, families don't try to drown the world in blood for the sake of it.

crawled to the Alliance instead of any other Horde member when he needed help to retake Thunder Bluff

well, who's the adult in the room, trying to bring an end to the endless wars?

gave them the same punishment that he gave the Grimtotem clan that openly rebelled against him?

yes, they betrayed him, the Horde, and peace, "the noblest of aspirations". i thought you disliked treason?

Except there's a pretty stark difference between "colluding" and "effectively aiding". The former requires intent, the latter is result-based (hence the "effectively" part).

yep, just like the Horde was effectively aiding the Lich King when they ambushed the Alliance in Icecrown. again, the difference is stark - the Horde did it for the lulz, the Alliance stopped the Ogre from whacking the world with another stupid wunderwaffle. maybe the need to pursue her was revealed to them in a dream, who knows - but somehow the Alliance almost always does the right thing in hindsight.

Warlocks shredding their targets' souls and none of that ever gets as much as a squeak even from the champion of all that's pure like Anduin

cf. world peace

Theramore's forces were attacking the Horde for two years across the entire central Kalimdor before Garrosh blew it up and so on

cf. world peace
btw, why didn't Garrosh act like Kael in WC3? "king's honor, humans! i can has wood?" no bombs required.

also, re: the council
they just forgot to hand in their letters of resignation. a formality, which certainly shouldn't prevent them from expressing their free and democratic choice - and it's not usually punishable by death.

Their future is forsaken

their future is Forgiven

anyway, that's interpretable as necro, it's derailing and derailing after a warning, which is a bannable offense. sorry, i couldn't resist.

[Mehrunes]

responding to several posts, incl the one from three days ago. soz, was busy. there's a fundamental error: Alliance and Horde are not the same.

I haven't said they are.

name's different (of Lordaeron/Grand), members are different. one is the ideological successor of the other, but is not responsible for what's happening in the capital of the previous organization.

You're arguing against the Word of God here. And using faulty arguments because as I pointed out in a later post, the names aren't different. Vanilla WoW's manual uses Grand Alliance even in context of the W2 and W3 era, while Metzen said to current Alliance members that they are the Alliance of Lordaeron. The names are interchangeable. And members being different means nothing, as leaving an international organization is not typically prohibited.

there is no definitive proof that the Alliance sabotaged the sanctum - on the contrary, the missive in dwarven denies it, only lamenting the recklessness of blood elf sanctum usage; the overseer of the sanctum admits that the most likely cause of the accident is their own actions. besides, i'm not sure NE spies were even capable of that.

but why were they even in Quel'thalas, you might ask?
i say, it was the Alliance's duty to invade to protect Azeroth from the Legion - and instead of a full-scale invasion, they launched a timid reconnaissance force. right.

before that, last time Tyrande heard of Kael'thas and his warriors was when she helped him out in Lordaeron. a couple years later, a blood elf in Stonetalon asked the Horde to massacre keepers and dryads to help demon worshippers in Jaedenar. but that's an isolated incident, #notallbloodelves, right?
and then a spaceship with good relatives of demons drops right next to Teldrassil, and it's infiltrated by a solid blood elf force which receives its' orders and reinforcement from Kael'thas in Outland and collaborates with the Legion. dude's still the king of Quel'thalas, his statues are all around the place - as are the fel crystals. naturally, anyone with that information assumes that Silvermoon is about to become the next Zin'Azshari and kaldorei will have to once again save the world from the quel'dorei. but no, it's just observation - met with an insane aggression instead of an "inshnu-ala, night elves" that Kael used to greet them with.

but hey, renewal, right?

The crystals in Quel'Thalas had never been confirmed to be Fel. And since as per Ask a CDev replies the whole thing about Rommath using the Fel to rebuild Silvermoon was kept a secret, it's highly unlikely to be the case because plopping a bunch of Fel Crystals right in the open isn't particularly secretive. As for Braelyn Firehand there are no Alliance quests involving her in Vanilla and since she's not directly involved in the attacks, the Night Elves had no way of knowing about her participation, let alone her allegiances. And when it comes to the Draenei the Night Elves outright welcomed the "good relatives of demons" with open arms, so the idea they would target the Blood Elves that tagged along with them over multiple logical hoops and due to supposedly having knowledge about Kael's change in allegiance that he kept secret even from Illidan doesn't exactly check out.

keeping the Bell in Darnassus isn't an aid, it's a burden. the Alliance would never have used it (although should have), while Garrosh used it immediately.

Engaging in combat against Horde forces trying to get into Darnassus on the other hand is very much aid. The Kirin Tor did less than that at Theramore, yet by Jaina's own standards she asked them to break their neutrality when she asked them for help.

Alliance and Horde are not the same - the former's vision of the world peace is mutual respectful coexistence; the latter's is the former's annihilation. because of that, instead of exploding the Underkeep after the Nagrandian Ogre's defeat and decapitating the Horde right there, they just walked away.
it's completely okay to prevent various Ogres from getting their hands on wunderwaffles, Alliance just has to act with way more tenacity.

The Alliance is so mutually respectful and coexisting Anduin's reaction to Genn and Rogers violating his orders and shitting on his supposedly beloved world peace was giving them a slap on the wrists and then bringing Genn to a meeting with the Warchief of the Horde he tried to kill that was supposed to facilitate peace, as if he had a shortage of other advisors.

you can imagine that she invoked emergency powers. or performed a coup. anything goes when the goal is the world peace.

Nothing has been said about Dalaran having any emergency powers even during past instances of a Council of Six member acting against it. When Kel'thuzad dabbled in forbidden magics he was still apprehended by 3 other members (i.e. a majority of them with Kel'thuzad being out of the picture for this matter due to obvious conflict of interest).

it's not a war crime if you had fun while doing it you're working for the world peace.

Not how anything works. By this logic Sylvanas is a saint because she was working for the greater good of the entire reality.

idem. also, glad that a conscious Horde adventurer came about and saved the tauren. the cause of the world peace gets an unexpected ally from the other side, huh?

Some of them. Not all.

identical to the Divine Bell: prevent the Undead Ogre from getting her hands on the wunderwaffle.

The Alliance had no idea what Azerite was at the time by their own admission.

you mean the Horde has betrayed him? Horde is a family, families don't try to drown the world in blood for the sake of it.

Just because Vol'jin railed about the Horde being a family doesn't mean other Warchiefs have to agree. They set their own course for the Horde and Baine repeatedly betrayed them, because unlike his father he didn't have the balls to do things the proper way and challenge them to a Mak'gora.

well, who's the adult in the room, trying to bring an end to the endless wars?

How does Baine getting a bunch of cash from Jaina so that he could hire mercenaries to retake Thunder Bluff constitute an attempt at trying to bring an end to the Alliance-Horde conflict, again?

yes, they betrayed him, the Horde, and peace, "the noblest of aspirations". i thought you disliked treason?

The point here is not that Baine was wrong to punish Grimtotem traitors, the point here is that he then gave the same punishment as he gave the traitors to the people fulfilling their duty as members of the Horde and fighting the Alliance forces invading their lands, because he's an Alliance sycophant.

yep, just like the Horde was effectively aiding the Lich King when they ambushed the Alliance in Icecrown. again, the difference is stark - the Horde did it for the lulz, the Alliance stopped the Ogre from whacking the world with another stupid wunderwaffle. maybe the need to pursue her was revealed to them in a dream, who knows - but somehow the Alliance almost always does the right thing in hindsight.

Yes? Was this supposed to be some kind of gotcha? The difference is that Garrosh out of all people actually properly reprimanded the commander responsible and ordered him to step up to meet Horde's standards under pain of death. As for Genn, he didn't attack Sylvanas to stop her from getting Eyir, because as he himself repeatedly states throughout the Alliance questline in Stormheim after the attack, he had no clue what she's after. He learned that she's after Val'kyr just moments before their final confrontation.

cf. world peace
btw, why didn't Garrosh act like Kael in WC3? "king's honor, humans! i can has wood?" no bombs required.

Yes, the Alliance starting the WotLK-MoP faction war over Varian's hatred of Orcs sure worked wonders for world peace.

[Magical Mudcrab]

What do you think napalm does? The whole point of napalm is that it's sticky (and also that it's liquid so it can first flow into trenches or other hiding spots). Which leads to the same melting-of-the-flesh shebang if the thing it stuck to happens to be a living target... The idea that Blight is some special kind of evil within the Warcraft universe doesn't hold up to scrutiny, even if it's been expressed by characters in said universe. Also, not all strains of Blight cause long-term effects on the land and most strains can be cleaned by the Forasken. The only strain for which it was confirmed not to be possible in the short term, was the one used in Southshore. And that strain was that strong by accident.

Sure, so let's say that napalm and blight are 1-to-1 when used on a person in isolation. You put two people in their own small, sterile rooms and expose them to the activated version of one of the weapons, and in each case the same effect (more or less) occurs. Does this address the widespread usage of blight (seen in every major conflict with the Forsaken since Wrath, arguably as far back as Vanilla if you consider the Royal Apothecary Societies experiments) relative to Dwarven napalm? Does this address the long term effects of the blight (it's great that only some strains have long term effects, but that doesn't mean much for places like Southshore or Gilneas)? Does this address the inherently dangerous nature of weapons in the form of vapors or mists (i.e.: the fact that they move with the wind, increasing the affected areas and hitting unintended targets)? The point is that even if I accept that they have the same effect on people, they still would not be equivalent.

Then there's the part where both factions employ users of fire magic that make napalm look like sparklers by comparison, Death Knights infecting their targets with all kinds of diseases or Warlocks shredding their targets' souls and none of that ever gets as much as a squeak even from the champion of all that's pure like Anduin.

I think something in a similar vein to this is addressed earlier in the thread. It was a discussion of the Alliance and Horde's treatment of various humanoid tribes (commonly gnolls, kobolds, murlocs, etc.) as a reason to not take moral questions in WoW too seriously (i.e.: we exterminate these tribes regularly, even though we know they're intelligent and can be reasoned with). Your argument is in a similar vein, which I understand, but when we reduce any discussion to "well we can't actually apply a consistent moral framework to the entire game, so we can't apply it to any of the game", it just begs the question of why ever participate in any lore threads discussing controversial actions whatsoever.

That isn't entirely correct. While Blizzard does occasionally provide post hoc explanation for the things they wrote for the Alliance all the while they want to pretend it's the champion of all that's good, that's really rather rare. More often than not they just brush the whole thing under the carpet and simply don't mention it without ever trying to actually retcon it. The attempt at killing the Goblin refugees that were witnesses on their attack on Thrall, to use your own example. It's never been retconned, it just hasn't been referenced again, because when it comes to the Alliance Blizzard wants to have its cake and eat it too. The same goes to things like how the Alliance was in the wrong in Alterac Valley, how Theramore's forces were attacking the Horde for two years across the entire central Kalimdor before Garrosh blew it up and so on.

Sure, but I think you understand my point. Blizzard is making a concerted effort to typecast the Horde and Alliance into specific roles, aggressor and aggressed respectively. It's not just a framing problem, it's that Blizzard is going out of their way to make the Alliance and Horde fit the roles they've been assigned (retconning or omitting details as needed).

[Feanoro]

it just begs the question of why ever participate in any lore threads discussing controversial actions whatsoever.

You're assuming the point is to discuss the lore. With some posters, it's not. Never has been, never will be. As you can see from the attempts to downplay the Blight, the point is to justify and exonerate the Horde.

In some cases, it's out of misplaced guilt for enjoying the faction that produced multiple omnicidal maniacs and racial supremacists. Then of course when you suggest that that energy should be directed towards demanding Blizzard write better, you get variants on "Peace is boring!", "The Horde does what it wants!", and of course "Duh wer in WERcreft!"

[guro-tchai]

You're arguing against the Word of God here. And using faulty arguments because as I pointed out in a later post, the names aren't different. Vanilla WoW's manual uses Grand Alliance even in context of the W2 and W3 era, while Metzen said to current Alliance members that they are the Alliance of Lordaeron. The names are interchangeable. And members being different means nothing, as leaving an international organization is not typically prohibited.

didn't this 'god' think that Falstad was dead?
and i'll take the position that the vanilla manual can be assimilated into the role-playing guide category and therefore decanonized. i know, i know!

The crystals in Quel'Thalas had never been confirmed to be Fel. And since as per Ask a CDev replies the whole thing about Rommath using the Fel to rebuild Silvermoon was kept a secret, it's highly unlikely to be the case because plopping a bunch of Fel Crystals right in the open isn't particularly secretive.

As for Braelyn Firehand there are no Alliance quests involving her in Vanilla and since she's not directly involved in the attacks, the Night Elves had no way of knowing about her participation, let alone her allegiances.

And when it comes to the Draenei the Night Elves outright welcomed the "good relatives of demons" with open arms, so the idea they would target the Blood Elves that tagged along with them over multiple logical hoops and due to supposedly having knowledge about Kael's change in allegiance that he kept secret even from Illidan doesn't exactly check out.

maybe it was kept secret from the thalassian population, but experienced night elves could have, dunno, smelled that. familiar stench of sulfur, perhaps? anyway, they're green, supposedly contain power and sport evil eyes on them. if it quacks like a you you know the thing

she orders the attacks. a single night elf rogue positioned on the ledge above Sunrock could've made all the necessary conclusions.

yes, it's a good thing they welcomed them.
and yes, they did have knowledge that not only blood elves are mysteriously genocidal to the draenei, these blood elves are enthusiastically following Kael's orders and they are allied with the demonic eredar.
i'm glad you agree on all the other points though.

Engaging in combat against Horde forces trying to get into Darnassus on the other hand is very much aid. The Kirin Tor did less than that at Theramore, yet by Jaina's own standards she asked them to break their neutrality when she asked them for help.

i was saying that the Bell itself wasn't the aid - and i said nothing regarding combat with Horde forces. which, btw, would be entirely correct if it actually prevented the Horde from getting it.

The Alliance is so mutually respectful and coexisting Anduin's reaction to Genn and Rogers violating his orders and shitting on his supposedly beloved world peace was giving them a slap on the wrists and then bringing Genn to a meeting with the Warchief of the Horde he tried to kill that was supposed to facilitate peace

i agree, actually! Anduin should've ordered it; no, he should've asked for the head of the bitch. getting rid of genocidal dictators is a prequisite to the world peace. but noo, we're not like that, we have to take the long route and "win their hearts and minds".
Anduin Wrynn has always been the biggest obstacle to the world peace. you know who could've given us that back in MoP? none other than Shokia. imagine all the people, living hand in hand after she (maybe even unwillingly) pulls the trigger in Jade Forest and goes "aw man i shot Anduin in the face". Varian stops taking his pills and properly follows Wrathion's plan. and blows up the Underkeep.

as if he had a shortage of other advisors.

i mean, who's gonna excitedly waggle his tail when his majesty speaks, if not Greymane? Anduin probably loves that.

Nothing has been said about Dalaran having any emergency powers even during past instances of a Council of Six member acting against it. When Kel'thuzad dabbled in forbidden magics he was still apprehended by 3 other members (i.e. a majority of them with Kel'thuzad being out of the picture for this matter due to obvious conflict of interest).

necromancy is unlikely to bring world peace, punishing orc-nazi collaborators is. simple as.

Not how anything works. By this logic Sylvanas is a saint because she was working for the greater good of the entire reality.

this is exactly how everything works. and btw

fun thing is, this Sylvanas won. family reunions probably weren't important to the arbiter #1 and were not taken into account by the arbiter #2. arbiter #3 is all about compassion, so problem solved.

you don't have to like it (i don't), this is how it was written.

Some of them. Not all.

i didn't say "all", i didn't say "some", i said "a".

The Alliance had no idea what Azerite was at the time by their own admission.

a miracle, it was once again revealed to the Alliance members in a dream, once again preventing the total annihilation of life on Azeroth.

Just because Vol'jin railed about the Horde being a family doesn't mean other Warchiefs have to agree. They set their own course for the Horde and Baine repeatedly betrayed them, because unlike his father he didn't have the balls to do things the proper way and challenge them to a Mak'gora.

wasn't this Thrall? anyway, Baine disagrees and uses all the methods at his disposal for the cause he believes in. and look at that, he won. we truly live in a blessed world, good guys always win in history and fiction. hooray.

How does Baine getting a bunch of cash from Jaina so that he could hire mercenaries to retake Thunder Bluff constitute an attempt at trying to bring an end to the Alliance-Horde conflict, again?

maintaining international connections, supporting stability in the region and using someone who can be relied upon.

The point here is not that Baine was wrong to punish Grimtotem traitors, the point here is that he then gave the same punishment as he gave the traitors to the people fulfilling their duty as members of the Horde and fighting the Alliance forces invading their lands, because he's an Alliance sycophant.

i wasn't making that point. the point i was making is that "people fulfilling their duty as members of the Horde" betrayed him and his "noblest of aspirations", therefore there shouldn't be any objections even to slaughtering an entire ship full of traitors to the world peace.

Yes? Was this supposed to be some kind of gotcha? The difference is that Garrosh out of all people actually properly reprimanded the commander responsible and ordered him to step up to meet Horde's standards under pain of death. As for Genn, he didn't attack Sylvanas to stop her from getting Eyir, because as he himself repeatedly states throughout the Alliance questline in Stormheim after the attack, he had no clue what she's after. He learned that she's after Val'kyr just moments before their final confrontation.

this was a kind of gotcha - but a different kind.
i didn't state that Genn attacked Sylvanas to stop her from getting Eyir, the quote is: "the Alliance stopped the Ogre from whacking the world". i correctly stated the result of his actions and not the intent.
after that, i assumed that the reason for that must be divine in nature: even by initiating the stupidest shit, the Alliance is moving in the right direction. the most frequent mistake is not moving fast enough, in that case - decapitating her here and now.

Yes, the Alliance starting the WotLK-MoP faction war over Varian's hatred of Orcs sure worked wonders for world peace.

the war was raging since vanilla, the Alliance just wasn't notified. these heated gaming moments in Theramore and Undercity change nothing but give the orcs an excuse to do what orcs do.
Varian got rid of his anger issues by 3.3, when he didn't just throw Saurfang from the ICC. k, tops pre-cata, when he didn't execute Moira on the spot. no, it was never racism. ("although should've" after each phrase)
and btw it just shows that Horde should be completely ignored on this issue. Thrall could've achieved world peace just by peace talks with Jaina and the rest of the Alliance; daily peacebloom baths and therapy for both Garrosh and Varian; assassinations if treatement proves unsuccessful.

[Aresk]

Except there's a pretty stark difference between "colluding" and "effectively aiding". The former requires intent, the latter is result-based (hence the "effectively" part). But I guess when you were forced to move the goalposts at least two times in regards to this tangent by now, including the first time that was caused by you misrepresenting Anduin's orders, this blatant misrepresentation is just par for the course.

[...]

In any case, unless you find it in you to reply to what's actually said to you instead of what whimsical fantasies you construct about it in your head for some god-forsaken reason, please reconsider replying.

I'm sorry for misunderstanding your arguments, and I am not endeavoring to twist your messages. My "goalpost" has always been that they didn't commit treason. I was simply trying to respond to what I thought (and apparently misinterpreted) you were saying. But I definitely agree with you on one point: this is a tangent. Thank you for your time put into this discussion.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, but @Aresk's stark misrepresentation of my posts isn't "my world".

I never said that you said they were colluding with the Legion. Please don't misrepresent my posts. My point was that, without collusion, attacking an enemy of an enemy who also happens to be a threat to you isn't grounds for treason (with the Cataclysm example as illustration). I hope that clarifies things for you. If you want to discuss this further, as we've both acknowledged this is a tangent, I suggest moving the conversation to PMs so that we can stop derailing this conversation.

[VladlTutushkin]

I'm sorry for misunderstanding your arguments, and I am not endeavoring to twist your messages. My "goalpost" has always been that they didn't commit treason. I was simply trying to respond to what I thought (and apparently misinterpreted) you were saying. But I definitely agree with you on one point: this is a tangent. Thank you for your time put into this discussion.

- - - Updated - - -



I never said that you said they were colluding with the Legion. Please don't misrepresent my posts. My point was that, without collusion, attacking an enemy of an enemy who also happens to be a threat to you isn't grounds for treason (with the Cataclysm example as illustration). I hope that clarifies things for you. If you want to discuss this further, as we've both acknowledged this is a tangent, I suggest moving the conversation to PMs so that we can stop derailing this conversation.

He wont stop twisting your every word, he is a (((lawyer))).

[QueldoreiEnchanter]

Send Calia to page 404 alongside Medan.
Voss for new Forsake leader!

[Ardenaso]

I get it though, some Horde fans think playing the evil faction makes them bad people and thus they have to try to make the factions equivalent. It's ok to enjoy fictional villains, it doesn't say anything about your morals. Got it? Great, now you're ready to see the factions as they're actually written.

I never wanted the Horde to be evil like I just wanted the WC3 Horde

except perhaps the Forsaken which are indeed meant to be the evil outliers (and perhaps the thing I really wanted: Alteraci Humans for the Horde)

[Jackstraw]

Mod edit: This is the thread about “What do you think the future of the Forsaken will be under Calia Menethil?” Stay on topic.

[Soon-TM]

Calia Menethil on a podium: And that's why as your new leader I propose peace and-
Fors Aiken: BOOO! GET OFF THE STAGE! * throws a half-eaten brain at her *
Calia: Oh my, who's brain was that?
Fors Aiken: The last guy who tried to preach love and peace to us!

Man, this would be glorious. I'd resub in a heartbeat, even if only to see it in-game myself.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I think they should just all go to Shadowlands since they are all dead and their bodies are literally decaying. That would be the end for them but at least their souls would find peace and proper judgement.

[Syegfryed]

Like almost all decisions made in lore later, this will be an awful one and the future will be shit

[Powerogue]

Send Calia to page 404 alongside Medan.
Voss for new Forsake leader!

Med'an was a character so objectively badly written that the only way out was to literally erase him from existence. I'd say the harshest thing they should do with Calia is utilize her as an example of what the forsaken isn't.

Illidan Style!

[Skildar]

I would actually like to see leaders praising the light take stronger stand with their beliefs (Turalyon, Velen, Anduin, Calia and Talanji).
Have Turalyon pushing to reclaim Gilneas and cleanse Northern Lordaeron for instance.

That could give a more defined identity to Calia as one that wants to rein on the forsaken and bring it closer to the Alliance until the point where Voss assassinates her giving one final nail into the Menethil gospel so we can move on to more important matters.