The apparent formula for new classes in WoW

[Gaidax]

In other words - the amazing discovery that new class as expansion feature is tied to that expansion's story and environment.

[thesmall001]

4. Abilities that don't fit in existing classes. The expansion classes house abilities that simply wouldn't work with classes that existed at the time.

cries, in demonology warlock

[Khaza-R]

I would agree with #1 & #4 but #2 & #3 are kind of weak in my opinion.

Blizzard recycles a lot of abilities in their games, period. Even if stuff isn't getting baked into a new class, it will evidently show up in a new talent or ability for an existing class at some point

And DHs really have no more tie-in to the Broken Isles than any other class. They're only there because the Legion invaded. And where the Legion presence is strong they are sure to follow.

[haediff]

What was the point of this thread.

[Teriz]

I would agree with #1 & #4 but #2 & #3 are kind of weak in my opinion.

Blizzard recycles a lot of abilities in their games, period. Even if stuff isn't getting baked into a new class, it will evidently show up in a new talent or ability for an existing class at some point

Not sure what that has to do with what I said. It’s pretty clear that you can’t place the expansion class’ abilities in existing classes, which facilitates the need for a new class.

And DHs really have no more tie-in to the Broken Isles than any other class. They're only there because the Legion invaded. And where the Legion presence is strong they are sure to follow.

Well, the Legion invaded there because Gul’dan used the body of Illidan and tomb of Sagaras to open the portal in Legion. Also in WC3 Illidan and Maiev battled there over the eye of Sagaras. It also made sense for the Wardens to have a prison and vault there.

[Jazzhands]

Well, the Legion invaded there because Gul’dan used the body of Illidan and tomb of Sagaras to open the portal in Legion. Also in WC3 Illidan and Maiev battled there over the eye of Sagaras. It also made sense for the Wardens to have a prison and vault there.

This really doesn't tie DHs to the Broken Isles in the same way Monks or DKs match their respective areas. Monks and DKs are deeply tied into the lore of their respective areas and communities. DHs showed up where demons were, and demons were on the isle. The closest thing they have would probably be The Black Temple.

Also Gul'dan didn't use Illidans body to open the portal. Gul'dan tried to use Illidans body as a host for Sargeras, and Illidan opened the portal with the keystone after we defeated Kil'jaeden. The only real relation DHs had to the Broken Isles was that they were imprisoned there, and I don't think they had a specific reason for the placement of the prison, it just had to go in the new area. They could have put it literally anywhere and it would have made just as much sense.

[Teriz]

This really doesn't tie DHs to the Broken Isles in the same way Monks or DKs match their respective areas.

I never said it did. I simply said that the isles have some history with demons, Illidan, Maiev, Gul’dan, and Night Elves. Giving it enough material history to give a basis for a DH inclusion.

[Relapses]

...and here I thought that confirming a non-Tinker class would get people to shut the fuck up about them for at least an expansion or two.

[draugril]

...and here I thought that confirming a non-Tinker class would get people to shut the fuck up about them for at least an expansion or two.

By and large, they have. The mentions of that class in this thread are just people unfairly unloading on Teriz for being Teriz - he didn’t bring it up at all.

[Teriz]

In other words - the amazing discovery that new class as expansion feature is tied to that expansion's story and environment.

It's not quite as simple as that. Consider how many people brought up Dragon Knights or the Dragonsworn from the TTRPG when the clues pointed to a dragon-based expansion. Those folks ignored the Hero-based, MOBA/RTS-rooted dragon class we got instead because they ignored the fact that the other expansion classes were also Hero-based and MOBA/RTS rooted.

[Jazzhands]

I never said it did. I simply said that the isles have some history with demons, Illidan, Maiev, Gul’dan, and Night Elves. Giving it enough material history to give a basis for a DH inclusion.

Your #3 point is that there's a landmass thematically connected to the class. Saying they're tied to the Broken Isles is just a different way to phrase this. Monks are tied to Pandaria, DKs are tied to Northrend ect.

That's simply not true for Demon hunters and the Broken Isles. A few historical events occurred there, that's it. It's no where near the connection Monks, DKs, and Evokers have to their respective regions. It's a huge reach. They thematically fit the expansion because the expansion was about fighting demons, but their thematic connection to the Broken Isles is incredibly weak.

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It's not quite as simple as that. Consider how many people brought up Dragon Knights or the Dragonsworn from the TTRPG when the clues pointed to a dragon-based expansion. Those folks ignored the Hero-based, MOBA/RTS-rooted dragon class we got instead because they ignored the fact that the other expansion classes were also Hero-based and MOBA/RTS rooted.

Monk and DK came out before HoTs. DHs are based on Illidan, who existed long before HoTs. There's also no Evoker in HoTs as far as I know, just Deathwing and Brightwing, but admittedly I don't follow HoTs closely anymore.

[Teriz]

Your #3 point is that there's a landmass thematically connected to the class. Saying they're tied to the Broken Isles is just a different way to phrase this. Monks are tied to Pandaria, DKs are tied to Northrend ect.

That's simply not true for Demon hunters and the Broken Isles. A few historical events occurred there, that's it. It's no where near the connection Monks, DKs, and Evokers have to their respective regions. It's a huge reach. They thematically fit the expansion because the expansion was about fighting demons, but their thematic connection to the Broken Isles is incredibly weak.

Demon Hunters and Illidan are tied to demons and the Burning Legion. The Broken Isles house the tomb of Sargaras, which makes the landmass also tied to demons and the Burning Legion.

Monk and DK came out before HoTs. DHs are based on Illidan, who existed long before HoTs. There's also no Evoker in HoTs as far as I know, just Deathwing and Brightwing, but admittedly I don't follow HoTs closely anymore.

The DH class contains elements from HotS, since Legion was the first expansion to be released after the release of HotS.

Also the Evoker class is based on Alexstraza, Chromie, and Deathwing from HotS. Mainly Alexstraza, since she has a visage form in HotS, and her abilities are showing up in both Evoker specs. Evoker is simply the class name for dragons, since the class' abilities are dragon abilities.

[Kyphael]

Too bad innovative isn't factored into their formula for the new class. Just give us Dragon Mages.

[Ielenia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

Yep. Thread over, right there.

@Teriz, why don't you just simply admit that you do not know what is necessary or required for a new class to be added into the game? Especially since three of your four points are easily debunked?

First point: "a major lore figure to tie into". False Chen was never a "major lore figure". He was an optional recruit in the WC3 bonus campaign "Founding of Durotar", and and in the eight years between WoW launch and MoP launch, pandaren as a whole have been mentioned only five or six times.

Third point: "a landmass that thematically connects to the new class". Again, false. All the expansion landmasses "thematically connect" to their respecitve expansion's overarching story. And so do new classes. Broken Isles is not "thematically connected" to the demon hunter. Both the DH and BI are "thematically connected" to the expansion's story. A and B are connected to C, not that A and B are connected to each other.

Fourth point: "abilities that don't fit in existing classes". Again, false. Many of the death knight's frost abilities could fit on a frost mage's repertoire: blinding sleet, howling blast, remorseless winter, glacial advance for example. And some DH abilities like eye beam could fit the pre-Legion demonology warlock.

[Jazzhands]

Demon Hunters and Illidan are tied to demons and the Burning Legion. The Broken Isles house the tomb of Sargaras, which makes the landmass also tied to demons and the Burning Legion.

This is still a huge stretch. Demons are all over the place, Demon Hunters aren't thematically tied to every place Demons exist. DKs, Monks, and Evokers are intrinsically linked to their areas with a lot of history and lore, DHs have very little history linking them to the shore. One little thing does not a connection make.

The DH class contains elements from HotS, since Legion was the first expansion to be released after the release of HotS.

Also the Evoker class is based on Alexstraza, Chromie, and Deathwing from HotS. Mainly Alexstraza, since she has a visage form in HotS, and her abilities are showing up in both Evoker specs. Evoker is simply the class name for dragons, since the class' abilities are dragon abilities.

The DH class contains elements from HoTs because the HoTs class contains elements from a long existing character that was around for over 10 years before HoTs came out. Saying DHs are MOBA rooted when they're clearly based on a character that existed long before said MOBA is, again, a huge stretch.

[Teriz]

Yep. Thread over, right there.

@Teriz, why don't you just simply admit that you do not know what is necessary or required for a new class to be added into the game? Especially since three of your four points are easily debunked?

First point: "a major lore figure to tie into". False Chen was never a "major lore figure". He was an optional recruit in the WC3 bonus campaign "Founding of Durotar", and and in the eight years between WoW launch and MoP launch, pandaren as a whole have been mentioned only five or six times.

He also appeared in the CCG, in the TTRPG, in WC comics, and other merchandise. Pandaren were the most requested new race for quite some time, and that's mainly due to the popularity of the character. A class/expansion largely based on his character was inevitable.

Third point: "a landmass that thematically connects to the new class". Again, false. All the expansion landmasses "thematically connect" to their respecitve expansion's overarching story. And so do new classes. Broken Isles is not "thematically connected" to the demon hunter. Both the DH and BI are "thematically connected" to the expansion's story. A and B are connected to C, not that A and B are connected to each other.

Isn't this just semantics? If both the DH and the BI are thematically connected to the expansion's story, wouldn't that also make the DH and BI thematically connected to each other as well?

Fourth point: "abilities that don't fit in existing classes". Again, false. Many of the death knight's frost abilities could fit on a frost mage's repertoire: blinding sleet, howling blast, remorseless winter, glacial advance for example. And some DH abilities like eye beam could fit the pre-Legion demonology warlock.

I'm talking about abilities as a whole. No class in WoW at the time could take on the DK's Necromancer-based kit. Warlocks and Rogues couldn't properly house the melee-based demonic powers of the Demon Hunter. There was no existing class that could emulate the abilities of a dragon.

Meanwhile, Hunters can house DR abilities just fine, and Death Knights have no trouble housing Necromancer abilities.

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This is still a huge stretch. Demons are all over the place, Demon Hunters aren't thematically tied to every place Demons exist. DKs, Monks, and Evokers are intrinsically linked to their areas with a lot of history and lore, DHs have very little history linking them to the shore. One little thing does not a connection make.

Well it isn't just that connection. Illidan went to the isles to take the Eye of Sagaras from the tomb, and used that artifact to decimate Maiev's forces in WC3. Again, if you need a new landmass to tell a story about the demonic invasion of the Burning Legion, you're going to use the Broken Isles. Additionally, by the time we got to Legion, if Blizzard was going to make another demon-based expansion, they were going to include Demon Hunters.

The DH class contains elements from HoTs because the HoTs class contains elements from a long existing character that was around for over 10 years before HoTs came out. Saying DHs are MOBA rooted when they're clearly based on a character that existed long before said MOBA is, again, a huge stretch.

The DH existed as an RTS character in WC3 first before anything else. The MOBA genre came from RTS games like WC3.

[Jazzhands]

Well it isn't just that connection. Illidan went to the isles to take the Eye of Sagaras from the tomb, and used that artifact to decimate Maiev's forces in WC3. Again, if you need a new landmass to tell a story about the demonic invasion of the Burning Legion, you're going to use the Broken Isles. Additionally, by the time we got to Legion, if Blizzard was going to make another demon-based expansion, they were going to include Demon Hunters.



The DH existed as an RTS character in WC3 first before anything else. The MOBA genre came from RTS games like WC3.

Of course you'd use the Broken Isles to tell a story about Demons, it already had established lore about the Tomb which gives it a significant connection to the Legion, but just because Illidan went there once doesn't suddenly mean Demon hunters are tied to the area. It's no where close to the significance DKs, Monk, and Evokers have in their respective areas. Jaina went to Northrend and did some stuff, is the thematically tied to Northrend now?

And the MOBA genre didn't come from "RTS games like WC3", it literally came from WC3. There's a reason it's called DoTA2.

[Sluvs]

I feel like the monk one is a little bit of a stretch. Chen is not nearly as important in the monk Questlines as arthas and Illidan to their respective classes.

Also, the broken isles dont really fit the DH, what you are looking for is the THEME of the expansion. Not the landmass.

While point 1 & 2 might carry some weight, 3 & 4 feels like you are reaching.

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I think we should simply accept the reality of new classes. They will do whatever the fuck they want as long as it fit the theme of the expansion.

They will tie a lore figure into it to make it work. Other than that, its just whatever they want.

[Teriz]

Of course you'd use the Broken Isles to tell a story about Demons, it already had established lore about the Tomb which gives it a significant connection to the Legion, but just because Illidan went there once doesn't suddenly mean Demon hunters are tied to the area. It's no where close to the significance DKs, Monk, and Evokers have in their respective areas. Jaina went to Northrend and did some stuff, is the thematically tied to Northrend now?

Again, I never said that it was on the same level as Monks and Pandaria, or DKs and Northrend, but Demon Hunters being introduced during an expansion about a demonic invasion isn’t exactly a huge stretch.

And the MOBA genre didn't come from "RTS games like WC3", it literally came from WC3. There's a reason it's called DoTA2.

No, it started with StarCraft, then WC3.

The point is that the DH started out as a hero until in a RTS game which formed the basis for hero characters in MOBA games like DOTA (which predate WoW) and Heroes of the Storm. So yeah, RTS/MOBA are it’s roots as a concept.

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I feel like the monk one is a little bit of a stretch. Chen is not nearly as important in the monk Questlines as arthas and Illidan to their respective classes.

Story-wise, no, but conceptually the WoW Monk class comes directly from Chen and the Pandaren Brewmaster hero.

Also, the broken isles dont really fit the DH, what you are looking for is the THEME of the expansion. Not the landmass.

The Demon Hunters fit just fine where the demons were present. Not every part of Northrend was DK-based, and not every part of Pandaria revolves around Monks.

[Jazzhands]

Again, I never said that it was on the same level as Monks and Pandaria, or DKs and Northrend, but Demon Hunters being introduced during an expansion about a demonic invasion isn’t exactly a huge stretch.



No, it started with StarCraft, then WC3.

The point is that the DH started out as a hero until in a RTS game which formed the basis for hero characters in MOBA games like DOTA (which predate WoW) and Heroes of the Storm. So yeah, RTS/MOBA are it’s roots as a concept.

It's not a matter of them being introduced in an expansion about a demonic invasion, it's your claim about them being thematically tied to the landmass. They aren't. They're thematically tied to the expansion, but not the area that expansion was located.

And humorously, we're both wrong about MOBA origins, but that's really beside the point. Blizzard didn't officially release a MOBA until HoTs. Any fan made stuff is just that. DHs have their roots in the RTS, but so does nearly every class up until Evoker because new stuff has to happen eventually. If anything, Evoker marks the end of the trend of having classes being based on previous lore. This is the first actual new class we've gotten.