How WoW could have been, if only...

[arkanon]

I wasnt really competing. I was just helping brain storm >.>.

So as is very typical for the "we want community" crowd, noone can actually say what that is, or what could be done to improve it.

[Zodiark]

These conclusions are based on what we see happening. They implement Torghast but it's a slow restricted grind everyone says it needs to be more rewarding and open at the start and at the end it's more rewarding and open. They implement Covenants and everyone says because people want to min-max they will only go for the BiS so it needs to be easily changable, this again is a change done at the end. The anima grind was horrible, now it's buffed etc. etc.

Many of the slow, grindy, tedious mechanics implemented at the start of this expansion have either been removed or buffed to the point of not mattering and the games better for it. You just remove these things they put development time into adding and the game is BETTER because of it. Almost every mechanic they implemented people told them how to fix it in the beta because the fix was obvious and all of those fixes slowly got implemented in patches along the way and now all these mechanics are in the state they should have been at the start, in the state everyone reported about in the beta.

Blizzard is a multi-billion dollar company, every decision they make is intentional and you only have to look at what they are doing to see what their intent is. They've been using the good name they built over the first 20 years to push their greed and now the cracks are showing.

Yes I understand your points. But to this I say that honestly it's the higher up's that are pushing agendas. The grunts in the studio doing code, etc aren't making decisions. By your points, this is why I have basically left WoW each expansion about 3-6 months in, to take a break. Then I come back about 6 months before the end of the expansion so I can just do my thing and get what I have to get and be done with it. I don't have the time or the desire to grind anything anymore. I'm not 22 anymore and don't have unlimited time to sit behind a computer like it's the most important thing anymore. This is kind of why I respect games like FFXIV because you can easily get your gear and be done with it. So then you might say, "well what else do you do then once you have your gear?'. You work on your alternate jobs, that's what. In WoW they should basically make it so you can get BiS with relative ease. Then you are freed up to work on your other classes etc.

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So as is very typical for the "we want community" crowd, noone can actually say what that is, or what could be done to improve it.

To be fair, I believe the reason for this is because it's a complicated issue. People want community in the modern gaming landscape but to achieve this is no mean feat. However that's why people get paid to figure these things out.

But ok I'll take a stab at it since we are on the topic and I don't want to open my mouth without something a little more meaningful to offer.

I believe the problem is multi tiered.

First is basic communication. Most people use Discord for voice chat and community building. The problem with this is if you are in a decently large guild you will quickly see many people who are online are playing other games, etc. You may meet someone in WoW and join their guild then the guild's discord, but it's a platform used for many games. People "dabble", in different games now more than ever, because there are so many choices.
For blizzard to help combat this a bit, they could make a new community feature in-game, that would have similar functionality of discord, etc. Streamline it and integrate it into the game and make it very user friendly that way people wouldn't be intimidated to use it. They would have to design it in such a way that it would make players prefer it over other social media platforms.

Next I think developing more drop-in group content such as multi stage, dynamic world quests that encourage group participation. Make these quests span various zones not just the newest more relevant zones but capable of popping up anywhere. To help facilitate this they could introduce level-scaling, similarly to how it's done in GW2. So that way these WQ's would never be obsolete. They would also need to get more players together. I think more server mergers would be necessary. The reason they don't currently is partly because the playerbase mainly converges in the newest expansion zones while the rest of the game world is more or less a ghost town. But by introducing these more dynamic questing experiences that would reward players based on their actual level and ilevel. That would bring more people together in other areas of the game so they wouldn't all be bottle-necked in one spot.

Back in the day around 2005 or so, it was fun and cool to be in WoW and to get into guild's and meet new people, etc. To re-capture some of this old magic blizzard would have to help facilitate an environment that helped to encourage that player interaction which would result in communities being formed.

[arkanon]

Yes I understand your points. But to this I say that honestly it's the higher up's that are pushing agendas. The grunts in the studio doing code, etc aren't making decisions. By your points, this is why I have basically left WoW each expansion about 3-6 months in, to take a break. Then I come back about 6 months before the end of the expansion so I can just do my thing and get what I have to get and be done with it. I don't have the time or the desire to grind anything anymore. I'm not 22 anymore and don't have unlimited time to sit behind a computer like it's the most important thing anymore. This is kind of why I respect games like FFXIV because you can easily get your gear and be done with it. So then you might say, "well what else do you do then once you have your gear?'. You work on your alternate jobs, that's what. In WoW they should basically make it so you can get BiS with relative ease. Then you are freed up to work on your other classes etc.

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To be fair, I believe the reason for this is because it's a complicated issue. People want community in the modern gaming landscape but to achieve this is no mean feat. However that's why people get paid to figure these things out.

But ok I'll take a stab at it since we are on the topic and I don't want to open my mouth without something a little more meaningful to offer.

I believe the problem is multi tiered.

First is basic communication. Most people use Discord for voice chat and community building. The problem with this is if you are in a decently large guild you will quickly see many people who are online are playing other games, etc. You may meet someone in WoW and join their guild then the guild's discord, but it's a platform used for many games. People "dabble", in different games now more than ever, because there are so many choices.
For blizzard to help combat this a bit, they could make a new community feature in-game, that would have similar functionality of discord, etc. Streamline it and integrate it into the game and make it very user friendly that way people wouldn't be intimidated to use it. They would have to design it in such a way that it would make players prefer it over other social media platforms.

Next I think developing more drop-in group content such as multi stage, dynamic world quests that encourage group participation. Make these quests span various zones not just the newest more relevant zones but capable of popping up anywhere. To help facilitate this they could introduce level-scaling, similarly to how it's done in GW2. So that way these WQ's would never be obsolete. They would also need to get more players together. I think more server mergers would be necessary. The reason they don't currently is partly because the playerbase mainly converges in the newest expansion zones while the rest of the game world is more or less a ghost town. But by introducing these more dynamic questing experiences that would reward players based on their actual level and ilevel. That would bring more people together in other areas of the game so they wouldn't all be bottle-necked in one spot.

Back in the day around 2005 or so, it was fun and cool to be in WoW and to get into guild's and meet new people, etc. To re-capture some of this old magic blizzard would have to help facilitate an environment that helped to encourage that player interaction which would result in communities being formed.

So basically, you want forced coop play even in solo content? Honestly after reading through all that, thats what i take away from it - you want Blizzard to FORCE players to cooperate in the hope that it will be like 2005 and people will form "communities" because they have been forced to play together?

[SinR]

Do you really want to do Elwynn Dungeon #96 where the only difference between it and Elwynn Dungeon #95 is the layout and bosses?

[arkanon]

Do you really want to do Elwynn Dungeon #96 where the only difference between it and Elwynn Dungeon #95 is the layout and bosses?

I absolutely don't, but I guess that might appeal to someone.....possibly?

[Celement]

I absolutely don't, but I guess that might appeal to someone.....possibly?

It works for some genres like survival or exploration games like terraria. WoW is based on group based combat though so it would be pretty trash here.

[Sauredfangs]

So as is very typical for the "we want community" crowd, noone can actually say what that is, or what could be done to improve it.

I'd like the two ideas in my signature to happen, personally. But I'm sure there are other things the game could use to improve it.

[arkanon]

I'd like the two ideas in my signature to happen, personally. But I'm sure there are other things the game could use to improve it.

Improve WHAT? What "problem" are they trying to fix?

[Zodiark]

So basically, you want forced coop play even in solo content? Honestly after reading through all that, thats what i take away from it - you want Blizzard to FORCE players to cooperate in the hope that it will be like 2005 and people will form "communities" because they have been forced to play together?

Not at all. I don't want anything FORCED. Just make a communication system within the game that becomes the best option so it would behoove players to use it. This is in regard to an in-game social network type community system. Eg, Discord. What would then encourage players to work together would be the drop-in group content such as they have in Guild Wars 2.

That game has pop-up events that change depending on player activity. The more players participate the further the stages go, as do the rewards for completion. So using that as an example, you could be playing solo and randomly join in on a massive zone event with other players to overcome the challenge.

This was more or less part of WoW with the world quest mods back in Legion until blizzard broke that functionality by not allowing players to be automatically joined into groups anymore. They could basically just un-do that change but build it into the game functionality.

[RobertMugabe]

Just a note: This thread is mainly just brainstorming ideas. Nothing I mention in any comment is something I feel SHOULD absolutely be implemented. Just some things that help create a more vibrant world that brings players back to the original fantasy that made WoW what it was in the first place.

If only WoW had went in another direction since Vanilla. Imagine if you will WoW expanded more inwards than outwards?

Let that sink in for a minute.

What if WoW utilized their phasing technology and built expansions that fleshed out the zones more, added new dungeons to existing zones, new enemies, NPC's etc, while still respecting the old ones? Help and NPC who is fighting off Kobolds from raiding his farm, he thanks you and that's that. Then after the expansion you get a letter from that NPC requesting your aid yet again. Those nasty Kobolds are at it again, this time they have tunneled under the farmers crops. You take care of business and are on your way. But wait there's more! What if during the quest you discover a tunnel deep within the makeshift tunnels the pesky Kobolds made. This tunnel leads deeper still to a forgotten grotto where magical barriers thought long forgotten still stand vigil over this long lost area of travel. You bring this to the attention of your local mage guild/wiseman, etc and it gets looked into.

Later down the line some expansions later, You receive word that those barriers are now able to be broken and a new party is forming to explore what lies beyond! Come join us Hero!

This type of content would not forget about the people you've helped before and make the world feel more rich and vibrant and alive. This is just one example. Imagine seeing actual progress in zones you helped, etc. If you join someone else on a different layer of advancement then you are simply given a warning box that explains this is a possible spoiler or some such, etc.

Right now WoW since Vanilla has made each new expansion a self contained game. This is part of what has slowed down development I believe. If only WoW had went into a different direction of building each expansion inwards instead of outwards then it doesn't mean that there could be no new zones, just that they would come slower and when it made sense to do so, while not abandoning the old ones.

WoW would've been dead after 2 year max.

You cannot sell the same zones to the playerbase all the time. People actually want to see new places and crazy ideas.

[arkanon]

Not at all. I don't want anything FORCED. Just make a communication system within the game that becomes the best option so it would behoove players to use it. This is in regard to an in-game social network type community system. Eg, Discord. What would then encourage players to work together would be the drop-in group content such as they have in Guild Wars 2.

That game has pop-up events that change depending on player activity. The more players participate the further the stages go, as do the rewards for completion. So using that as an example, you could be playing solo and randomly join in on a massive zone event with other players to overcome the challenge.

This was more or less part of WoW with the world quest mods back in Legion until blizzard broke that functionality by not allowing players to be automatically joined into groups anymore. They could basically just un-do that change but build it into the game functionality.

Whats the goal here? Do you feel WQ require a group to complete them? Im just wondering what "problem" this is trying to fix, and no one seems capable of answering that seemingly very simple question.

[Celement]

Whats the goal here? Do you feel WQ require a group to complete them? Im just wondering what "problem" this is trying to fix, and no one seems capable of answering that seemingly very simple question.

They want a heroic struggle with a group barely surviving just without any struggle.

[Kayb]

The good thing about community is that it’s a nice idea.

The bad thing about community is that it has people in it.

People will always be toxic regardless of whatever system is in place.

[arkanon]

They want a heroic struggle with a group barely surviving just without any struggle.

It's crazy to me - not a single person has been able to actually explain what this "community" thing is, and why they think it needs fixing. Nearly everyone comes back with the same suggestion - encouraged grouping. That already exists.

[Stickiler]

Not at all. I don't want anything FORCED. Just make a communication system within the game that becomes the best option so it would behoove players to use it. This is in regard to an in-game social network type community system. Eg, Discord.

Blizzard are never going to be able to make a better communication platform than Discord, purely because Discord is laser-focused on their chat platform, whereas for Blizzard it would just be another system inside WoW. It might be something they could slowly build in to Battle.Net, but then that has the same "flaws" as Discord in your eyes, as it'll be across multiple games again.

Especially because Guilds are already well entrenched in Discord, with roles, channels, bots etc set up to better facilitate their guild activities.

[Celement]

It's crazy to me - not a single person has been able to actually explain what this "community" thing is, and why they think it needs fixing. Nearly everyone comes back with the same suggestion - encouraged grouping. That already exists.

They want everyone to become clueless again and play wow like it was their first mmo. They want to go back to when not knowung what stats did was common and things like deadmines and scarlet monastery were considered difficult.

They want to cross the river and return to the home they left... but it's been to long. It isnt the same river nor the same home. I understand what it is they want but it's something they can never have again even if they move to a different mmo.

It's the desire of an adult to return to childhood. Everyone feels it from time to time even those that enjoy what experience has granted them.

[Zodiark]

WoW would've been dead after 2 year max.

You cannot sell the same zones to the playerbase all the time. People actually want to see new places and crazy ideas.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I want to see new zones but on a slower pace. I want to see progression of the storylines and not play though a time capsule.

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Whats the goal here? Do you feel WQ require a group to complete them? Im just wondering what "problem" this is trying to fix, and no one seems capable of answering that seemingly very simple question.

The problem is that no one communicates within the game anymore because the content is fairly easy. The only challenge is ranked PvP, M+, and Mythic Raids. Years ago people banded together within the game partially because the content was challenging, partly because communicating and forming social groups outside of the game was not really a thing. It's almost like people who capitalized on social media platforms saw that individuals online and in games, WANTED to have an easier time establishing communication. That's partly why WoW didn't take a stance in that battle because they saw it was a loosing fight unless they were willing to set aside a sizeable chunk of money to establish a social network platform within the game that may or may not succeed. Look back at when WoW implemented in-game voice chat. That basically was a response to VENT servers and it went nowhere.

Bottom line if Blizz is going to create content and systems to bring players together they have to try a whole lot harder and not rest their laurels on some half-baked attempt, then throw their hands in the air when those attempts fail.

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Blizzard are never going to be able to make a better communication platform than Discord, purely because Discord is laser-focused on their chat platform, whereas for Blizzard it would just be another system inside WoW. It might be something they could slowly build in to Battle.Net, but then that has the same "flaws" as Discord in your eyes, as it'll be across multiple games again.

Especially because Guilds are already well entrenched in Discord, with roles, channels, bots etc set up to better facilitate their guild activities.

I wouldn't say that. Discord is just the latest thing. Before that it was Ventrillo. Blizzard has a lot more money than Discord and could easily Come up with a version that would have similar functionality but laser focus players on WOW or Diablo. The other games in the Activision lineup have their own distinct player base.
How do I know this? Because if you go on games like ESO and play them on console those game have vibrant and active communities that basically exist in a vacuum because you can't use Discord on console systems. I played ESO on console and joined a guild and couldn't believe the player interactions, both on voice and in chat. It made me feel like the days of old in Vanilla where players genuinely came together for the love the game to make groups, etc.

[Magistrate]

I don't think that's necessarily true. I want to see new zones but on a slower pace. I want to see progression of the storylines and not play though a time capsule.

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The problem is that no one communicates within the game anymore because the content is fairly easy. The only challenge is ranked PvP, M+, and Mythic Raids. Years ago people banded together within the game partially because the content was challenging, partly because communicating and forming social groups outside of the game was not really a thing. It's almost like people who capitalized on social media platforms saw that individuals online and in games, WANTED to have an easier time establishing communication. That's partly why WoW didn't take a stance in that battle because they saw it was a loosing fight unless they were willing to set aside a sizeable chunk of money to establish a social network platform within the game that may or may not succeed. Look back at when WoW implemented in-game voice chat. That basically was a response to VENT servers and it went nowhere.

Bottom line if Blizz is going to create content and systems to bring players together they have to try a whole lot harder and not rest their laurels on some half-baked attempt, then throw their hands in the air when those attempts fail.

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I wouldn't say that. Discord is just the latest thing. Before that it was Ventrillo. Blizzard has a lot more money than Discord and could easily Come up with a version that would have similar functionality but laser focus players on WOW or Diablo. The other games in the Activision lineup have their own distinct player base.
How do I know this? Because if you go on games like ESO and play them on console those game have vibrant and active communities that basically exist in a vacuum because you can't use Discord on console systems. I played ESO on console and joined a guild and couldn't believe the player interactions, both on voice and in chat. It made me feel like the days of old in Vanilla where players genuinely came together for the love the game to make groups, etc.

I think this is a fair and good point. While voice and chat programs have always existed (xfire, vent, etc.), the extent to which discord has become universal means it's more likely to absorb the social interactions that would have natively happened within the game and sucked them into an outside platform. That platform, because of it's separateness, makes and has to make no effort to seemlessly integrate the in-game player experience into it's social experience. Therefore, if you're not specifically in each players discord group, you're not really seeing or able to be part of the communication they're having.

It would be interesting if somehow blizzard struck a deal with discord to optionally integrate it directly into the in-game social ui. I wonder if that would change anything.

[Stickiler]

I wouldn't say that. Discord is just the latest thing. Before that it was Ventrillo. Blizzard has a lot more money than Discord and could easily Come up with a version that would have similar functionality but laser focus players on WOW or Diablo. The other games in the Activision lineup have their own distinct player base.
How do I know this? Because if you go on games like ESO and play them on console those game have vibrant and active communities that basically exist in a vacuum because you can't use Discord on console systems. I played ESO on console and joined a guild and couldn't believe the player interactions, both on voice and in chat. It made me feel like the days of old in Vanilla where players genuinely came together for the love the game to make groups, etc.

So your evidence for why Blizzard could compete with Discord on PC is that people use ESO's in-game chat on a platform where Discord isn't available? Discord is coming to Xbox and Playstation, and I can guarantee that people will switch to it once it does, because it provides the current BiS solution for organising and communication both inside and outside the game. Being able to have a discussion with guildies, signing up for group activities etc, without needing to open the game, is such an insane benefit that it's basically unbeatable.

Also, to your point that "Discord is just the latest thing", absolutely, something could dethrone Discord, for sure. But it's not going to be a game-specific in-game community tool, there are just too many benefits for a platform you can access anywhere at any time, without needing to log in to the game. ESPECIALLY because most guilds branch out from the game they first formed in, and try other games, even if it's just for a few weeks. My guildies jump on D3 every once in a while, they'll have League games, hell, they'll just sit in chat chatting while they play single player games by themselves.

[Chromell]

Out of curiosity, why?

How is a spaceship any different than a floating castle that's airtight?

How is a robot different than a golem?

A laser versus a ray of magic?

I never really understood why some people get so hung up on these things. This game started with green men from a red planet invading via a stargate. Not so little green men from Mars! Its one of Clarke's three laws, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Speaking only my opinion here of course, but I much prefer the standard medieval fantasy setting. I lose quite a bit of interest when too much technology gets involved in RPGs, I mainly only tolerate steampunk stuff but not much past that.