Is skipping content right way to make game alt-friendly?

[Kumorii]

Alt-friendlyness is about time... not about fun or not fun.

It's the same reason why people want to have the option when skipping cinematics.
I love most cinematics in most games, but on repeat playthroughs I don't want to watch it again every single time... sometimes I will watch it, but sometimes I want to skip it.

Same reason why most people aren't watching their favorite movies multiple times a day.

[DookuDookuTree]

An alternative to replay slough is user generated quests, do quests made by other players, would feel fresh. Blizzard made quests can't keep up with making things fresh so they should welcome aid from the players.

[Garymorilix]

Gaming, nearly at its core, is all about repeating content. We are playing a loop, doing the same things again and again, and finding enjoyment in that. Some of the greatest games of all time, are all about doing the same small amount of specific content again and again, yet having fun while doing it.

The same thing should and could be with WoW. Just because you are doing the Maw Intro questline 2 times every month with new alts, does not mean that it needs to be boring. If the content is made to be generelly fun and interesting to play, then it does not matter that it is repeating. I have proberly played through the Silverpine Questline like 50 times, yet it is still fun, because the content is made fun.

So even if things get stale over time( I get that if you do the same content 50 times a day, EVERYTHING will get stale), you can make content resilient by creating unique experiences compared to other parts of the game. Content resilience towards staleness is not directly connected to quality, but its part of quality, to have content that is interesting enough, that you want to do it again, since you don't get an experience like it anywhere else.

Edit: A good example of this is the start of Mist of Pandaria for the Horde. You start by bombing a temple, shooting down fighters, using a unique forward attack you don't get other places. The same with the Eastern Plaquelands experience, where you have a buddy with at all times. Stuff like that can make every zone, every questline somewhat interesting as it tries to be different then the grind of daily quests.

"I like doing the same thing over and over again so if you don't then you are in the objective wrong."

Man, what a load of bs.

Just like the WoD intro, the Maw intro was fine... for a while. I did it on like 8 characters and I am not going to do it on any other character again.
It's not that it's bad it's just fucking boring. It's the same shit all over again.

WoW is about repeatable content, but that means dungeons, pvp, raids. Those things have two things that story questing don't: high variance and actual rewards.
If the MAW intro gave like 6 levels and 40 renown everybody and their mother would be doing it obviously. But it doesn't.

"But games are meant to be repeated" no they don't.
If I made you play the first 30 minutes of the Witcher 3 12 times you would say the same. What's fun about replaying it is the different choices you make during your new playthru at key moments.
There is nothing different about doing the Maw intro 12 times. And there doesnt have to be. WoW is not an offline RPG, it tells you a basic story and off you go to level to reach max level to do actually fun repeatable content: m+/raid/pvp. That's what WoW is. Not this single-player feverdream of repeating the same 30 minute storyline endlessly.

[Thes]

The same thing should and could be with WoW. Just because you are doing the Maw Intro questline 2 times every month with new alts, does not mean that it needs to be boring. If the content is made to be generelly fun and interesting to play, then it does not matter that it is repeating. I have proberly played through the Silverpine Questline like 50 times, yet it is still fun, because the content is made fun.

I don't know about you but even if there was a really good movie it's still probably not so good that I'd watch it twice a month for months to come.

[Mysterymask]

I don't know about you but even if there was a really good movie it's still probably not so good that I'd watch it twice a month for months to come.

Tell that to my worn out copies of that one DuckTales episode where there were druids and my copy of Street Fighter 2 the animated series that I watched everyday for a year

[loras]

Blizzard claim, that ZM content is alt-friendly. And some old content, like Maw intro, is also alt-friendly after some fixes. But it's achieved via allowing players to skip some parts of content after completing them once. Yeah, story part is extremely boring, so it's good, that it can be skipped. And, I guess, it's their way to make content alt-friendly in future xpacks too. But is it right way to make content alt-friendly? I mean, intentionally making content bad, but then allowing players to skip it? May be it would be much better, if Blizzard would use WOD way, i.e. would make content so good, that players would want to replay it again, again and again? Don't you think, that current way of making content is way too...wasteful? Content is made for some niche players, who, let's say, like story. They do it exactly once and then it's wasted.

It is wasteful, but they apparantly see no better way.
Personally i would make it all optional, rather than wasteful; let us return to Chromie time at any moment of our choosing to complete the content appropriately, and also make sure that its rewards line up for us as quest rewards usually do.

The consequence of this would be that alts could skip mandatory parts, but return later to finish them at their leisure.
Which really isn't so different from past incarnations of WoW, but it does allow one to both hurry and complete the content without wasting it.

Say i have a raid i need to be ready for at the end of the week; i might want to hurry through i.e. dungeon spam and such. But then after i've had that raid i might get a little bored and also curious so i might head back to continue where i left off before i had to hurry.

[WowIsDead64]

Even more playing ZM confirms, that not only reward structure is bad in ZM, but also content structure. First of all, ZM doesn't have any "attraction" factor. I don't know, hot to explain it better. Something, that makes you really want to go there. For example when you're at work, your shift ends and you think something "Can't wait to return home, log into game and go to ZM!!!".

Major problem? Assumption, that killing rares and collecting treasures - is interesting gameplay by itself, so players would do it just for sake of doing it. Problem is - it isn't. That map toggling spam mechanic is bad. If devs actually show rares on map instead of relying purely on players reporting them to each other, then not reporting them directly to player - is pointless thing. It's just bad game mechanic. It causes unhealthy compulsive behavior - constantly spamming map not to miss any rare. Because they're killed very quickly and every second counts. Making them harder to kill - isn't viable solution. It makes game even less solo-friendly and wastes players' time. So this whole gameplay is just bad and should be replaced by something more interesting.

I won't say anything about annoying flying mobs and constant annoying aggro/combat - there is other thread for doing it. Again. Annoying =/= dangerous. Paying attention =/= challenge. Game would be much better, if all raptoras and mawsworns from desert part would be removed.

And it wouldn't be so bad, if at least campaign would be interesting, so it would be nice to replay it on alts. But I just hate some parts of it. Tons of elite quests. And especially 5th ZM chapter. Because it's intentionally made super slow and super tedious. Free legendary is mandatory for me. But I would gladly skip those campaign chapters. Don't get me wrong. I don't ask to add even more skipping in this thread. I ask to stop using skips as excuses for making terrible non-replayable content. This is mostly about making DF right way and not repeating same mistakes, while it's not too late to do it.

[Amariw]

I think what they're missing is compelling gameplay and rewards. To tldr it: Make fights interesting, and give us more reasons to fight for.

Outdoors became extra trivial over the years. They were never dangerously difficult, but at least elites were common in endgame zones. In Timeles Zereth mortis keep them seperated to zerged rares and a single patch of elite subzone ground (that mawsworn sands area). This means most of your combat in Zereth, even on alts with a bit of catchup gear, ends in seconds and just falls flat.

Add interesting mobs! make them drop enough rewards so its not frustrating. Make every mob drop currency (like genesis mote only its good for gear too). Timeless and Thundering Isle from MOP did this very well.

As for rewards, you're basically done with Zereth in an hour or two if you dont want the genesis mount/pet farm, and if your main attained revered for leggo. Mounts and pets are great, but wow encourages power gains. Simply allow currency to give raid level loot. Do this slowly enough, so m+/arena/raid players dont feel any real need to farm it, and it can be a fun lucrative reward for casuals/slow alts.

[WowIsDead64]

I think what they're missing is compelling gameplay and rewards. To tldr it: Make fights interesting, and give us more reasons to fight for.

Outdoors became extra trivial over the years. They were never dangerously difficult, but at least elites were common in endgame zones. In Timeles Zereth mortis keep them seperated to zerged rares and a single patch of elite subzone ground (that mawsworn sands area). This means most of your combat in Zereth, even on alts with a bit of catchup gear, ends in seconds and just falls flat.

Add interesting mobs! make them drop enough rewards so its not frustrating. Make every mob drop currency (like genesis mote only its good for gear too). Timeless and Thundering Isle from MOP did this very well.

As for rewards, you're basically done with Zereth in an hour or two if you dont want the genesis mount/pet farm, and if your main attained revered for leggo. Mounts and pets are great, but wow encourages power gains. Simply allow currency to give raid level loot. Do this slowly enough, so m+/arena/raid players dont feel any real need to farm it, and it can be a fun lucrative reward for casuals/slow alts.

My opinion: core problem - is "danger via annoyance". There are two kinds of games. One is challenging due to great challenging mechanics. And another is made "challenging" artificially - for example via terrible controls, bad game mechanics or something like that, that makes this game annoying or tedious instead of making it challenging. Wow - is game, that is made "challenging" artificially. Blizzard wanted to make 5th chapter "hard". Yeah. Problem is: challenge - is thing, player can deal with. Thing, player can actually beat. For example I can deal with automa part, despite of terrible bugged traps, that fail in 50% cases, despite of being dropped precisely at mob's center. That guy, who has invented this "great" mechanic - is genius. I learned to kill small elementals, trap elites, etc. Not that hard. But next part is just making game "hard" just for sake of making game "hard". Yeah, that part with big elite mob. There are two ways to deal with it. To wait for 1 minute for it to go away. I.e. just waste your time. Good thing, if you have enough cosmic power to escape immediately. Because 1 minute isn't enough to grind more and elite mob can return again => another minute of your time is wasted. But you don't, because previous part hasn't offered it. Or to try to kill it, that is big risk due to bunches of raptoras and elementals constantly aggroing for no reason. I can't deal with it. There is no way to "beat" this encounter. THIS IS BAD GAME DESIGN. And it should go away.

[Daffan]

For ALTS it's not that bad.

The insane skip culture for mains is insane though (new, recurring or slow players)

[Lochton]

Blizzard claim, that ZM content is alt-friendly. And some old content, like Maw intro, is also alt-friendly after some fixes. But it's achieved via allowing players to skip some parts of content after completing them once. Yeah, story part is extremely boring, so it's good, that it can be skipped. And, I guess, it's their way to make content alt-friendly in future xpacks too. But is it right way to make content alt-friendly? I mean, intentionally making content bad, but then allowing players to skip it? May be it would be much better, if Blizzard would use WOD way, i.e. would make content so good, that players would want to replay it again, again and again? Don't you think, that current way of making content is way too...wasteful? Content is made for some niche players, who, let's say, like story. They do it exactly once and then it's wasted.

I'd rather re-do all quests, or skip a few than being stuck with grinding forever as another game has.

[Sialina]

Gaming, nearly at its core, is all about repeating content. We are playing a loop, doing the same things again and again, and finding enjoyment in that. Some of the greatest games of all time, are all about doing the same small amount of specific content again and again, yet having fun while doing it.

The same thing should and could be with WoW. Just because you are doing the Maw Intro questline 2 times every month with new alts, does not mean that it needs to be boring. If the content is made to be generelly fun and interesting to play, then it does not matter that it is repeating. I have proberly played through the Silverpine Questline like 50 times, yet it is still fun, because the content is made fun.

So even if things get stale over time( I get that if you do the same content 50 times a day, EVERYTHING will get stale), you can make content resilient by creating unique experiences compared to other parts of the game. Content resilience towards staleness is not directly connected to quality, but its part of quality, to have content that is interesting enough, that you want to do it again, since you don't get an experience like it anywhere else.

Edit: A good example of this is the start of Mist of Pandaria for the Horde. You start by bombing a temple, shooting down fighters, using a unique forward attack you don't get other places. The same with the Eastern Plaquelands experience, where you have a buddy with at all times. Stuff like that can make every zone, every questline somewhat interesting as it tries to be different then the grind of daily quests.

I played silverpine once, I will never ever in my life repeat it again because I find it B O R I N G as can be. Why? Because once I know the story of an area, it can no longer interest me, and it can't reward me endgame rewards, and it's not the fastest way to endgame, which is the repeatable content I like.
Do I want Blizzard to remove silverpine then? No, because the game is split into parts, some are story driven, some are gameplay loops, they do not mix well together for me. A story is only ever good the first time, POSSIBLY a second time if there was a twist and you can see it in a new light while replaying it.

[loras]

Blizzard claim, that ZM content is alt-friendly. And some old content, like Maw intro, is also alt-friendly after some fixes. But it's achieved via allowing players to skip some parts of content after completing them once. Yeah, story part is extremely boring, so it's good, that it can be skipped. And, I guess, it's their way to make content alt-friendly in future xpacks too. But is it right way to make content alt-friendly? I mean, intentionally making content bad, but then allowing players to skip it? May be it would be much better, if Blizzard would use WOD way, i.e. would make content so good, that players would want to replay it again, again and again? Don't you think, that current way of making content is way too...wasteful? Content is made for some niche players, who, let's say, like story. They do it exactly once and then it's wasted.

I don't mind having occasional bits like the maw in the game, but i don't mind skipping it a second time.
Perhaps they could opt to make such places more rewarding on a second playthrough on an alt? That way it would feel less wasteful.

A bit more gold here, a bit more exp there, and a small chance for a bit of loot that brings you up to speed for the starting tiers of the current raid.

After all given the way they've currently designed things only the current patch really matters, might as well "upgrade" all previous content to the level of the previous patch.