Give the Horde better leaders.

[Niwes]

Agree.
My frustration hit me with WoD and had me rewriting some stuff, balancing a smaller Horde and Alliance with much larger neutral "independent factions." (And an "evil" faction) Just as much a balancing act is the teeter-totter of magic vs tech. Any major Titan complex is a wealth of..both.
But character development of various leaders, minor and major, is what drives the story/timeline so...my focus.

„… had me rewriting …„ —> what does this mean?
„… my focus„ —> also confuses me.

i do not fully understand this post.

is it my bad english reading?
or is it some bad english writing, from your side?
or are you a member of the Blizzard-Writers team?

i understand what you say about Horde/Alliance/Story, but i don’t really understand the context.

[Raisei]

„… had me rewriting …„ —> what does this mean?
„… my focus„ —> also confuses me.

i do not fully understand this post.

is it my bad english reading?
or is it some bad english writing, from your side?
or are you a member of the Blizzard-Writers team?

i understand what you say about Horde/Alliance/Story, but i don’t really understand the context.

It's Afrasiabi! He is back! Run! Safe the children and world trees!

[Shadowferal]

„… had me rewriting …„ —> what does this mean? „… my focus„ —> also confuses me. i do not fully understand this post. is it my bad english reading? or is it some bad english writing, from your side? or are you a member of the Blizzard-Writers team? i understand what you say about Horde/Alliance/Story, but i don’t really understand the context.

Apologies.
It's something that's turned into a hobby of sorts. Some people rewrite things in their head, I however write stuff in my notebook. A notebook that's my version of WoW 2.0. A catharsis to deal with my frustration over the stupidity of WoW writing. My notes stop in the middle of MoP.
I concede that I'm a bit arrogant to think I can indeed rewrite the lore and do a better job than the current narrative team. Unfortunately that doesn't seem a rather high bar these days.
Faction leadership, widening the scope of the earlier class structure, and racial abilities are typically what I'm looking at when I'm not looking at the overall storyline as well as stories involved in-zone. All of which needs to be told and expressed well...

Knowing when to stop typing is something else I'm working on. oy..

[Grazrug]

Fortunately for the Horde, any time they're recognized as rabid dogs by an Alliance character, that character is swiftly lobotomized or villain batted. Have no fear, the Horde will still get to carry out genocides and wonder with wounded innocence why anyone would dislike them.

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Complete with the message that "victims seeking justice are evil", as well as portraying the Horde as underdogs, oppressed, and other absurdities.

No single alliance character was ever communicated as evil when trash talking the Horde. Quite the opposite. Those who hate the Horde the most still hold their position of power in the alliance. Genn, Tyrande, Turalyon and Jaina. Meanwhile any Horde leader who ever looked at the alliance funny was removed as evil war monger. Leaving the Horde with None to root for since the entire trash council now suppport peace.

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Oh yes. It has noooothing to do with the new council favouring peace. I am sure that is why our friend Gazrug here pulled out all the worst possible beings in the Horde's checkered history to become the leaders. All the traitors and genocidal maniac are only on the list because of the emotional investment, not because the second they are in power again they would try (and fail again) to destroy the Alliance.

Come on.



Exactly. And they are already hated despite that. Because the Horde players cannot accept people that are not immediatedly gung-ho about killing some Alliance children.

If your only character trait is that telling everyone you should be nice to the alliance then you should not bei a leader period. I am sick and tired of Horde characters telling me I am not allowed to hate the alliance. The alliance is m enemy and I will always fight and sabotage them

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You misunderstand. It is cheating because they don't like Thrall. With Sylvanas it wasn't cheating because they love her.

It would indeed be a ridiculous rule in any case to forbid Magic. that would make shamans and other magic-users, who have spend years mastering that skill instead of learning how to swing an axe and building up muscle, automatically disadvantaged against a warrior.

Command over magic is just as much a part of a person's strength as the force of their arms. The Mak'gora puts two people's strength against each other to find out who is stronger. All of their strength. Otherwise it would be a totally unfair ritual, allowing trained warriors to always win against shamans, despite the fact that the shaman can roast them with a gesture. How would that prove the warrior as the stronger one?

Of course the participants can determine rules before the fight (Cairne and Garrosh did), but if they don't then everything goes. Even poison isn't automatically cheating. It was in the fight of Cairne and Garrosh, because neither of them knew about it. In fact I am pretty sure that the shadowy stuff on Sylvanas daggers was a kind of magical poison, much like the stuff her black arrows use. Just that Saurfang didn't live long enough for it to take effect.

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Indeed. Because he wasn't a warrior to begin with. He was a Shaman. And because of that he could vaporize Garrosh whenever he felt like it. That Mister Daddy-Issues accepted the challenge just shows his overconfidence and stupidity.

Of course Thrall could have killed Garrosh without the duel too. He really didn't need to give Garrosh a chance, but it is Thrall and he wanted to be fair.

Btw. if use of magic makes you "never a true warrior"... please explain how this does not apply to Garrosh using a giant Manabomb on Theramore? Wouldn't a "true warrior" storm the city and take it by axe and blood instead of cowardly blowing it up?

I get that slight feeling we are applying double standards...

As a mere warrior Garrosh was stronger. So he had to rely on magic to win the fight.

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While I would not mourn the loss of Mekkatorque, the Alliance did suffer more casualties than the Horde. Frida Ironbellows, Grong, Manceroy Flamefist, Mestrah, Brother Joseph, and Sister Katherine vs Ma'ra Grimfang and Anathos Firecaller. The Zandalari suffered Ra'wani Kanae, Opulence (if that counts), four members of the Conclave, and Rastakhan.



The Horde and the trolls themselves have more to do with that than the Alliance, though. The Zandalari are the ones who initially led the attack on the Gurubashi in classic, while the Horde canonically killed Zul'jin in TBC. The Darkspear organized the offensive against both Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub in Cata. The Zandalari have no qualms sending Horde adventurers to kill other trolls living in Dazar'alor, and other troll tribes allied with Zul's forces in his rebellion (e.g. the Farraki who helped Jakra'zet in Vol'dun). The blood trolls are largely dealt with by the Horde adventurers as well. While I agree that trolls suffer frequently, this in no way is an element of Horde victimization, particularly given the Horde is one of the greatest perpetrators.

Nobody important died during the siege. Meanwhile the death of Rastakhan was a heavy blow for the morale of the Zandalari. One the might never recover from.

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Nothing to Do with warmongering, my dude, and everything to do with lack of character development with the replacements. Garrosh was built up for 4 expansions, Saurfang has been around since Vanilla. Sylvanas, Vol'jin, Cairne, and Nazgrim are all the way back from Warcraft III days. Thrall, arguably the most iconic Horde character, is technically present but not really leader or representative of anything.

Fact is, most, if not all, of the big character ties for the Horde from back in the day have been cut. Horde players are essentially left with zero characters to be emotionally invested in.

As for all the replacements? Most of their stories simply haven't been told yet. Baine and Liandrin have the most history with Horde players while everyone else is so new or infrequent that there's not much reason to feel any attachment to them. (I don't even know who is leading the Darkspear atm, and the Forsaken is some Council of names I don't know except Voss). Maybe we'll be made to care in the future, maybe not, but we barely even know who these new guys are supposed to be.

This guy gets it.

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Nothing to Do with warmongering, my dude, and everything to do with lack of character development with the replacements. Garrosh was built up for 4 expansions, Saurfang has been around since Vanilla. Sylvanas, Vol'jin, Cairne, and Nazgrim are all the way back from Warcraft III days. Thrall, arguably the most iconic Horde character, is technically present but not really leader or representative of anything.

Fact is, most, if not all, of the big character ties for the Horde from back in the day have been cut. Horde players are essentially left with zero characters to be emotionally invested in.

As for all the replacements? Most of their stories simply haven't been told yet. Baine and Liandrin have the most history with Horde players while everyone else is so new or infrequent that there's not much reason to feel any attachment to them. (I don't even know who is leading the Darkspear atm, and the Forsaken is some Council of names I don't know except Voss). Maybe we'll be made to care in the future, maybe not, but we barely even know who these new guys are supposed to be.

Baine has no history with the Horde. When he interacts with us he stabs us in the back. He never talks with any of the other leaders. Or Talks about Anduin. Listen to the latest stay a while and listen. I will never accept him.

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The Orcs didn't have an actual enemy on Draenor - they were misled into thinking the Draenei opposed them when they didn't (by the Legion), who are the same beings that gave them the same Fel magic they eventually used to lay their world to waste and end up cannibalizing themselves before the Dark Portal gave them another opportunity to save themselves by attempting to claim Azeroth. So yeah, they were "victorious," albeit in a war founded on a lie and foisted on the idea that they'd then become the Legion's slaves (which they largely were when they invaded Azeroth). You can call that victory in the most technical way possible, sure; but in the end, they nearly damned themselves and even today they're still paying for their costly misjudgment.



You're conflating gameplay elements with established lore. Jaina was considered Antonidas' star pupil, and Antonidas himself is said to have believed that she "had the potential to become the greatest sorceress in human history." Similarly, Khadgar was also something of a prodigy in Dalaran and sent to Medivh to serve as his apprentice as the Kirin Tor felt Medivh would be unable to turn down someone as talented and incisive as young Khadgar.

Thrall was a gifted combatant long before he was a Shaman - he was trained as a gladiator by Sargeant and Blackmoore at Durnholde, and proved to be a "phenomenal fighter," with the natural savagery of an orc and the strategic intellect of a human. None of that really explains Thrall's natural talent for Shamanism, such that he quickly outstrips even Drek'thar in power, and is able to reconnect with the Spirit of the Wild despite bearing the Fel taint himself. Thrall learns and excels in Shamanism far quicker than either Jaina or Khadgar, who had been studying the Arcane for the majority of their lives up until that point. Thrall basically attains the power of an Archmage in a few months, as opposed to years of diligent study.



My idea of checks and balances is not investing a single fallible individual with autocratic power, and instead fragmented power among a group of individuals ideally representing the people they're meant to protect and serve. The Horde being shitty at this doesn't mean the Alliance excels at it, either. The creation of the position of High King was a definite step backward for the Alliance, ditto for Anduin's inability to stand up to his own advisors.



They got betrayed because of their own stupidity, or at least in Vol'jin's case because he was manipulated by outside forces. Durotan got betrayed because he allowed Gul'dan, the former leader of the Shadow Council that was puppeteering Blackhand, to continue to draw breath. Thrall put an idiot blowhard into the seat of power, said idiot proceeding to set the Horde against itself by being a power-hungry tyrant that surrounded himself with sycophants and yes-men. Vol'jin put Sylvanas into power, and Sylvanas turned out to be aligned with WoW's version of the Grim Reaper who wanted to kill everything and everyone to empower himself. So yes, they would've never won a war against the Alliance, because when ruled by a Warchief they swiftly become their own worst enemy.

Vol'jin also didn't appoint himself to any "supervisory" council - he was always part of the inner circle of advisors, and Thrall explicitly suggested that Garrosh listen to their counsel when making decisions. Something Garrosh swiftly discounted almost immediately on gaining power despite his own protestations of being unworthy and unready to lead. Similarly, Baine always suspected Garrosh was complicit in Cairne's death - even though he was wrong, it's understandable a cloud of suspicion would still surround Garrosh. Baine only had the word of Garrosh that Magatha was actually responsible. The Sha was too dangerous to deal with all on its own, and Garrosh proved that for himself at the Shrine of the Two Moons, when he infected his own troops with Sha energies that sent them into insane rages endangering his own people.



Garrosh was more than just an observer, especially since he spoke out volubly and set the basic tenor for the breakdown of the peace talks pretty much unilaterally. Garrosh and Varian were the only two individuals there too dumb to actually recognize an obvious set-up and did their level best to ensure that the talks were doomed to failure.

No one's really saying that Varian didn't have a pronounced anti-Horde bias, either. Rather, he had a significant one he never really tried to hide. Part of that was down to his own unstable nature due to what had been done to him what with the whole splitting him in half thing, and part of that was just down to the memories of his treatment as a Horde gladiator slave. Needless to say, he was quite opposed to listening to reason.



Again, I didn't say I agreed with Baine's rationale on the war, only his stance on Taurajo and the greater notion of the conflict being another in the endless and self-perpetuating cycle the Horde and Alliance were involved in. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.



A realistic Alliance would've wiped out the Horde when it invaded Azeroth in the First and Second Wars after they had been roundly defeated, as opposed to putting them into internment. That being said, the Third War basically showed the value of the two main factions working together - if they hadn't joined forces, we know the combined Scourge and Legion forces would've been victorious in the end.

And they didn't know at the Wrathgate incident that Putress' forces weren't there on behalf of the Horde, either. They had only Sylvanas' word that she was responsible for it and that Putress was attempting a coup on her in the process. Hell, that plot itself remains murky even to this day - as there's been evidence that Sylvanas always had Putress' actions in mind and only used him as a shield of plausible deniability for herself. The Alliance was wrong, but the stance itself was still reasoned well enough, they just didn't have all the facts of the matter (and likely never will).

The Horde council exists to save the alliance from another war against the Horde. It's technically lead by Baine and Thrall who are the biggest advocates for peace. It was never intended to make things better for the faction and their races itself. Political studies show that single leaders and governments are alwas more efficent in decision making. Too many people involved always end up meddling.

[Aucald]

The Horde council exists to save the alliance from another war against the Horde. Its technically lead by Baine and Thrall who are the biggest advocates for peace. It was never intended to make things better for the faction and their races itself. Political studies show that single leaders and governments are alwas more efficent in decision making. Too many people involved always end up meddling.

Efficiency is not the sole virtue of government, unfortunately; and political history has shown that the primary efficiency, as well as decision-making of totalitarian autocrats, is to enrich themselves and their keys to power at the cost of their populace and their territory's resources. Fracturing power across a representative body is the best way to ensure that said power isn't mobilized solely to the benefit of a minority (or an individual), sacrificing relative efficiency for equality, equity, and individual liberty - all of which are also virtues of government that shouldn't be discounted for efficiency's sake.

The history of the position of Warchief of the Horde illustrates the above principle in one of perhaps the most elementary of fashions.

[Grazrug]

Efficiency is not the sole virtue of government, unfortunately; and political history has shown that the primary efficiency, as well as decision-making of totalitarian autocrats, is to enrich themselves and their keys to power at the cost of their populace and their territory's resources. Fracturing power across a representative body is the best way to ensure that said power isn't mobilized solely to the benefit of a minority (or an individual), sacrificing relative efficiency for equality, equity, and individual liberty - all of which are also virtues of government that shouldn't be discounted for efficiency's sake.

The history of the position of Warchief of the Horde illustrates the above principle in one of perhaps the most elementary of fashions.

The alliance has Turalyon and they are doing fine. Single people leading was never the problem. The problem is Blizzard having a complete different mindset when it comes to the Horde . Which is how we ended up losing 90% of our character cast.

[Shadowferal]

King Varian Wrynn:
I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.

...this is language I kept for my rewrite, since this makes Varian very much the racist leader.

[Aucald]

The alliance has Turalyon and they are doing fine. Single people leading was never the problem. The problem is Blizzard having a complete different mindset when it comes to the Horde . Which is how we ended up losing 90% of our character cast.

The Alliance is, by its nature, more democratic than the Horde historically had been - the position of High King isn't an absolute authority, and member states of the Alliance can withdraw or withhold their support without sanction, unlike the autocratic position of the Warchief where loyalty and fealty are sworn directly (as per the Blood Oath of the Horde) to the Warchief at the individual level. The Horde as it is now, with the position of Warchief having been set aside, is actually now more democratic than the Alliance since it lacks a central military leader and is instead ruled by a representative council.

[Aresk]

Nobody important died during the siege. Meanwhile the death of Rastakhan was a heavy blow for the morale of the Zandalari. One the might never recover from.

I personally don't care too much for Rastakhan, given his ineffective leadership during Cata and MoP (especially his willingness to allow Zul's work with the mogu/Lei Shen despite Rastakhan's disapproval). However, I know a lot of people did, and I think a near-death experience at the hands of the Alliance would've been sufficient for allying with the Horde as much as his actual death motivated Talanji to do the same. However, I do like Blizzard's willingness to up the stakes with character death like this, and I wish they did it more (e.g. the aforementioned Mekkatorque example). Rastakhan's death was a turning point in the expansion, and I don't think the raid would have had the same level of impact had Blizzard opted to have Rastakhan survive.

[Raisei]

If your only character trait is that telling everyone you should be nice to the alliance then you should not bei a leader period. I am sick and tired of Horde characters telling me I am not allowed to hate the alliance. The alliance is m enemy and I will always fight and sabotage them

Your problem is that you are not seeing the benefit of peace for the Horde as well. You just want war for war's sake. That is an incredibly stupid way to approach this. A culture that defines itself just by waging war will at some point end up destroying itself and that is exactly what happened to the Orcs on Draenor already. You refuse to learn from this. A fictional animated cow on two legs has understood this simple lesson, yet you refuse to.

As a mere warrior Garrosh was stronger. So he had to rely on magic to win the fight.

Yes, but that doesn't make it cheating. Being a shaman is part of Thralls strength. He is more then a simple warrior. Something that Garrosh was fully aware of. He never had a chance, but he still accepted the challenge. His hubris killed him.

[Nymrohd]

Apologies.
It's something that's turned into a hobby of sorts. Some people rewrite things in their head, I however write stuff in my notebook. A notebook that's my version of WoW 2.0. A catharsis to deal with my frustration over the stupidity of WoW writing. My notes stop in the middle of MoP.
I concede that I'm a bit arrogant to think I can indeed rewrite the lore and do a better job than the current narrative team. Unfortunately that doesn't seem a rather high bar these days.
Faction leadership, widening the scope of the earlier class structure, and racial abilities are typically what I'm looking at when I'm not looking at the overall storyline as well as stories involved in-zone. All of which needs to be told and expressed well...

Knowing when to stop typing is something else I'm working on. oy..

I've an excel sheet with a full remaster concept, many factions, changes to classes, a very different expansion path.

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I am still surprised people are trying to describe the High King as a Blue Warchief. From everything we've seen, the High King simply has command of the united Alliance army when it is on the field. They have no authority over the individual members in any other circumstance and cannot even compel conscription; they work with the units that the individual members make available to the Alliance.

Meanwhile the Horde's Warchief demanded a blood oath of absolute obedience to the Warchief itself (implicitly over the Horde).

[Raisei]

The alliance has Turalyon and they are doing fine. Single people leading was never the problem. The problem is Blizzard having a complete different mindset when it comes to the Horde . Which is how we ended up losing 90% of our character cast.

Not really. The problem is that the Horde has repeatedly chosen the worst possible people to lead them and whenever those rabid psychopaths were shouting for blood the Horde happily went along. Meanwhile the Alliance has a line-up of smart and compassionate leaders, that had their people in mind and not treat them like expendable tools.

[Ramz]

I personally don't care too much for Rastakhan, given his ineffective leadership during Cata and MoP (especially his willingness to allow Zul's work with the mogu/Lei Shen despite Rastakhan's disapproval). However, I know a lot of people did, and I think a near-death experience at the hands of the Alliance would've been sufficient for allying with the Horde as much as his actual death motivated Talanji to do the same. However, I do like Blizzard's willingness to up the stakes with character death like this, and I wish they did it more (e.g. the aforementioned Mekkatorque example). Rastakhan's death was a turning point in the expansion, and I don't think the raid would have had the same level of impact had Blizzard opted to have Rastakhan survive.

It would, they already destroyed the golden fleet, and killed all the high priests, rampaged through the city and even attacked the civilians. I am really pissed at his loss, because many people waited for a long time to meet him and interact with him, and he is gone after first patch. Trolls were already in rough position of having extremely tiny roster of important characters. They offed Zul'Jin, then Vol'Jin, and now Rastakhan -( they even invented the aging problem for him- and only him - they had no problem addind +1k years to Turalyon). That's just too much. Talanji is fine, but it's not the same. I think it would be better if he was kept as a King, make him fix his mistakes (and he was working his behind to fix them) and make amends, and let Talanji roam the world and work as his right hand to help re-establish Zandalari presence. Because it feels wrong that a queen of the nation leaves the country to sit by the campfire in Stormsong. Rulers have envoys and ambassadors for a reason.

Horde is missing established characters that have certain presence. And while I have grown to really enjoy Rokhan and seeing him as even being better than Vol'Jin with the right treatment (which didn't come in SL and doesn't seem to be coming in DF) , it's a fact that Horde is filled with mostly nobodies. Characters that have small scraps of history/acomplishments and don't really resonate with players. This is why it's frustrating to see that Blizzard continues to refuse to shape new Characters and neutral content is the perfect time to add new Horde characters, make people bond with them and see them grow over time.

So it's imo a matter of bigger issue aswell.

[Feanoro]

I am still surprised people are trying to describe the High King as a Blue Warchief. From everything we've seen, the High King simply has command of the united Alliance army when it is on the field. They have no authority over the individual members in any other circumstance and cannot even compel conscription; they work with the units that the individual members make available to the Alliance.

Someone should let the writers know all that. The reason people (myself included) use the term "Blue Warchief" is mocking how the position was created out of laziness, in only really having to focus on one Alliance character to the detriment of the others, as well as the very concept of an alliance. You have nonsense like Jaina calling Varian "my king" in Wrath, when he had zero sovereignty over her, and Genn doing the same for Andy.

Meanwhile the Horde's Warchief demanded a blood oath of absolute obedience to the Warchief itself (implicitly over the Horde).

Another case of writer laziness. The orcs are supposed to hate the Legion for enslaving them, and despise the Old Horde for handing themselves over for power. That's not remotely what's shown though. They name things for the Old Horde, keep the Legion imposed organization and laws, and vehemently resist any attempt to return to their supposed roots.

Yes, the council exists, mainly so the writers can write all their beloved Horde characters in Game of Thrones style "witty" remarks and bickering, but I don't hold any hope of real change.

[Myradin]

I am still surprised people are trying to describe the High King as a Blue Warchief. From everything we've seen, the High King simply has command of the united Alliance army when it is on the field. They have no authority over the individual members in any other circumstance and cannot even compel conscription; they work with the units that the individual members make available to the Alliance.

Meanwhile the Horde's Warchief demanded a blood oath of absolute obedience to the Warchief itself (implicitly over the Horde).

Because its how its portrayed in game.

The horde blood oath means nothing as its been betrayed in mass twice during the horde's two civil disuputes. The horde feels very decentralized with factions with the forsaken and blood elves doing things the kalmindor horde would not be a fan of and just being allowed to get away with it.

Meanwhile all leaders of the alliance are showing to be subserviant to the High King. The Night Elves are the only odd men out and are generally shown as 'bad' the one time they get upset the high king isnt doing more for them. Which, if the High King just had authority "on the field" they would petitioning all rulers for support, not the high king.

[Aucald]

I am still surprised people are trying to describe the High King as a Blue Warchief. From everything we've seen, the High King simply has command of the united Alliance army when it is on the field. They have no authority over the individual members in any other circumstance and cannot even compel conscription; they work with the units that the individual members make available to the Alliance.

Meanwhile the Horde's Warchief demanded a blood oath of absolute obedience to the Warchief itself (implicitly over the Horde).

I think the goal with the position of High King was to kind of give the Alliance a marquee character that would more or less identify them as a faction, much in the same fashion that the current Warchief tended to epitomize the Horde. Before Varian sort of took the reigns as supreme commander, the Alliance player base was essentially fractionated under their leader of preference - which sort of had the unintended side-effect of diluting their faction identity in comparison to the Horde. Whether or not Varian and Anduin actually successfully accomplished the goal of unifying the Alliance under a sort of one-person banner is kind of up in the air, in my view.

Lore-wise, the power of the High King was demonstrably less than that of the former seat of Warchief, from a political standpoint. But that, too, meshes well with the Alliance as a political structure as opposed to the Horde prior to the close of the Fourth War.

[Nymrohd]

Because its how its portrayed in game.

The horde blood oath means nothing as its been betrayed in mass twice during the horde's two civil disuputes. The horde feels very decentralized with factions with the forsaken and blood elves doing things the kalmindor horde would not be a fan of and just being allowed to get away with it.

Meanwhile all leaders of the alliance are showing to be subserviant to the High King. The Night Elves are the only odd men out and are generally shown as 'bad' the one time they get upset the high king isnt doing more for them. Which, if the High King just had authority "on the field" they would petitioning all rulers for support, not the high king.

I don't see this subservience. Genn is in a unique situation as a king without a state whose people survive at the sufferance of Tyrande and Varian and later entirely at Anduin when they lose Teldrassil. Everyone else does what they want more or less. I'll agree that at least one specific situation was problematic (Jaina in ICC) but mostly we see Tyrande and the Council of Three Hammers doing their thing; remember, Varian actually had no authority to act against Moira which is why what he was planning was described both as clandestine and as a coup. Tyrande still needs to agree with Varian in A Little Patience because this was a situation where the Alliance army was acting and as I said in that case the High King has absolute authority.
Which is not really that special; a clear line of hierarchy is needed. Plus by every account Stormwind has the biggest population by far in the Alliance. The only ones who are comparable are the Dwarves but the Dwarves are in a unique political situation of a regent that rules as part of a council which makes them unsuited for assuming a leadership role (I really hope we get to see Dagran take over the throne and unite the Three Hammers at some point in the next few xpacs).

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Another case of writer laziness. The orcs are supposed to hate the Legion for enslaving them, and despise the Old Horde for handing themselves over for power. That's not remotely what's shown though. They name things for the Old Horde, keep the Legion imposed organization and laws, and vehemently resist any attempt to return to their supposed roots.

I consider this Metzen's greatest failure. They built the lore of the clans from the start and imo that has always been the most interesting part of the Orcs; the many clans each with distinct traditions. Thrall should have built the Horde by reviving the old clans. They could have used Vanilla to show the presence of each clan and focus on a small number of new clan chiefs. Instead the only clans that get any focus are the Frostwolves (but they are on the other side of the world), the Warsong (without actually giving them significant NPCs) and to a lesser extent the Burning Blade (but as antagonists).

[Mehrunes]

That's the elements' fault in that case. Not thrall's
They still complied when he asked

The Elements were not the challenger to a Mak'gora, nor are they bound by rules of Orcish culture. So no, it very much is Thrall's fault. Which is why guilt was eating at him ever since.

A realistic Horde would be a refugee state barely able to feed itself, which is how Thrall's Horde canonically got its start. Even in the current unrealistic Horde, things like food and wood access are acknowledged to be a problem, and thats not even counting the civil war(s) decimating the population. Horde advocates should steer well away from realism.

That refugee state is so massive the internment camps' Orcs alone were numerous enough that Blackmoore planned to overthrow the entire Alliance with them (back when Alliance still had its Lordaeron powerhouse no less) and actually achieved it in the timeline in which he stopped drinking and actually did what he wanted to do instead of just talking about it while opening the next barrel of beer. And freeing those Orcs, then uniting them with two entire Clans that eluded capture to begin with and some other races on top of that is how Thrall's Horde got its start. They only ever had issues with feeding Orgrimmar, because Thrall deliberately set up his capital in a shithole in order to attune for his green guilt. And even Orgrimmar is obtaining what it needs via trade, with only a temporary hiccup at the end of WotLK when Night Elves broke their trade treaty.

The Orcs didn't have an actual enemy on Draenor - they were misled into thinking the Draenei opposed them when they didn't (by the Legion), who are the same beings that gave them the same Fel magic they eventually used to lay their world to waste and end up cannibalizing themselves before the Dark Portal gave them another opportunity to save themselves by attempting to claim Azeroth. So yeah, they were "victorious," albeit in a war founded on a lie and foisted on the idea that they'd then become the Legion's slaves (which they largely were when they invaded Azeroth). You can call that victory in the most technical way possible, sure; but in the end, they nearly damned themselves and even today they're still paying for their costly misjudgment.

Once the Orcs started their war the races they were targeting were very much their enemies. Unless you want me to believe those races just bent over and went along with the Orcs trying to slaughter them (which would need further corroboration, since it contradicts numerous battles already established in the lore), that the Orcs were manipulated to reach the conclusion that the other Draenor's other inhabitants were their enemies has no bearing on what their relations with those races became once they acted on it.

You're conflating gameplay elements with established lore. Jaina was considered Antonidas' star pupil, and Antonidas himself is said to have believed that she "had the potential to become the greatest sorceress in human history." Similarly, Khadgar was also something of a prodigy in Dalaran and sent to Medivh to serve as his apprentice as the Kirin Tor felt Medivh would be unable to turn down someone as talented and incisive as young Khadgar.

Then please do cite those totally-existing Jaina's immense combat achievements in earlier lore. And please keep in mind that an omniscient narrator described the episode in which she didn't give Thalen as much as a nose bleed despite her hostile (if not lethal) intent as Jaina using "all of her might". In a book. With no gameplay involved. As recently as the Cata-MoP transition, which happened somewhere around 2-3 years prior to her jumping all the way up to a one man army mage-god status in BfA.

Thrall was a gifted combatant long before he was a Shaman - he was trained as a gladiator by Sargeant and Blackmoore at Durnholde, and proved to be a "phenomenal fighter," with the natural savagery of an orc and the strategic intellect of a human. None of that really explains Thrall's natural talent for Shamanism, such that he quickly outstrips even Drek'thar in power, and is able to reconnect with the Spirit of the Wild despite bearing the Fel taint himself. Thrall learns and excels in Shamanism far quicker than either Jaina or Khadgar, who had been studying the Arcane for the majority of their lives up until that point. Thrall basically attains the power of an Archmage in a few months, as opposed to years of diligent study.

Doesn't change the fact that you're still expecting a further explanation for what's already an explanation here, which could be done ad nauseum for pretty much everything, starting with Jaina's status as a prodigy (that somehow has resulted in absolute nothing combat-wise for stark majority of her life). While merrily ignoring that those are two completely different power systems, with Shamanism relying on one's relationship to sentient entities and not necessarily years of toiling with books. And Thrall was charismatic enough that he convinced Orcs that they should settle in a shithole that he specifically selected to make the entire race suffer so that they could atone for his own green guilt.

My idea of checks and balances is not investing a single fallible individual with autocratic power, and instead fragmented power among a group of individuals ideally representing the people they're meant to protect and serve. The Horde being shitty at this doesn't mean the Alliance excels at it, either. The creation of the position of High King was a definite step backward for the Alliance, ditto for Anduin's inability to stand up to his own advisors.

You've got that now (if the people Horde's current leaders are meant to protect and serve are humans, because that's who they are representing) and yet there's already been signs they can't control people like Talanji.

They got betrayed because of their own stupidity, or at least in Vol'jin's case because he was manipulated by outside forces. Durotan got betrayed because he allowed Gul'dan, the former leader of the Shadow Council that was puppeteering Blackhand, to continue to draw breath. Thrall put an idiot blowhard into the seat of power, said idiot proceeding to set the Horde against itself by being a power-hungry tyrant that surrounded himself with sycophants and yes-men. Vol'jin put Sylvanas into power, and Sylvanas turned out to be aligned with WoW's version of the Grim Reaper who wanted to kill everything and everyone to empower himself. So yes, they would've never won a war against the Alliance, because when ruled by a Warchief they swiftly become their own worst enemy.

Doesn't unmake the plot contrivances required for the Horde to collapse on itself and, in turn, for the Alliance to continue existing. From Orgrim keeping Gul'dan even after he fulfilled his purpose and created the Death Knights for him all the way to Sylvanas just noping out. The last one doesn't hold up even to scrutiny from the internal perspective of the event at hand, because Sylvanas supposedly accepted a human puppet's Mak'gora because she wanted him to suffer, even though she would have caused him much more suffering by crushing his shitty rebellion and his human masters while keeping him alive to witness it. And maybe resurrecting his son in front of him as she already threatened him at the beginning of the expansion for some extra suffering.

Especially since that choice would have also contributed to her real agenda of causing as much death as possible for the sake of her gimp suit buddy from hell, unlike the choice the story forced her to make. Bonus points for the fact that if she wasn't currently gargling on the idiot ball thanks to the writers shoving it down her throat she could have even salvaged her "The Horde is nothing" outburst that already shouldn't have happened by adding "without me." afterwards.

Never mind that the Alliance should have been destroyed already at Lordaeron at least five times over, especially since at least one of their deus ex ass pulls that saved them that day also doesn't hold up to even internal scrutiny. After Jaina breached the walls and Anduin rushed forward, he was stopped by the force led by Nathanos and Lor'themar, armed with the very same Blight that the Alliance just almost got completely screwed by five minutes earlier and needed Jaina to pop out of nowhere just at the right time to save them.

And yet instead of more Jaina the thing that supposedly saved the Alliance in that stage of the fight was Alleria popping in via her Void portals. Right next to Anduin and his army instead of the Blight spreaders that would actually have allowed them to do something about it, like sabotaging the equipment or quickly taking the operators with the element of surprise. Alleria's arrival did absolutely nothing to counteract the prospect of even more Blight being launched at the Alliance incursion into the breach, yet the story pretended that it did.

Vol'jin also didn't appoint himself to any "supervisory" council - he was always part of the inner circle of advisors, and Thrall explicitly suggested that Garrosh listen to their counsel when making decisions. Something Garrosh swiftly discounted almost immediately on gaining power despite his own protestations of being unworthy and unready to lead. Similarly, Baine always suspected Garrosh was complicit in Cairne's death - even though he was wrong, it's understandable a cloud of suspicion would still surround Garrosh. Baine only had the word of Garrosh that Magatha was actually responsible. The Sha was too dangerous to deal with all on its own, and Garrosh proved that for himself at the Shrine of the Two Moons, when he infected his own troops with Sha energies that sent them into insane rages endangering his own people.

No, he very much did. Since you need a refresher, Vol'jin's stunt as an advisor summarily ended before Cataclysm even began, after he threw a tantrum so massive even Baine the human footstool thought it gave Garrosh the right to execute him for treason. Which instead ended only with Garrosh telling Vol'jin to fuck off from Orgrimmar. And yet he then appeared in Krasarang out of nowhere, without any summons or any command from his Warchief to un-fuck off from the Echo Isles. With Vol'jin himself answering Garrosh's question as to what he's doing there with a demand to know what the Warchief of the Horde was doing and finished that exchange with a remark that someone has to keep the Warchief in check. Which, you know, is what supervisors do.

And suspicion is one thing. When Baine joined Vol'jin in 5.3 he outright stated that Garrosh betrayed his father. Which is a sentiment he miraculously dropped afterwards once again. As for the Blood Elves, the very point of that experiment was to learn about the Sha, because it was the very beginning of the Horde's adventure with those energies and future fuck ups involving it couldn't have factored into Lor'themar's decision to reconsider "old alliances". Which instead stemmed only from the fact that his chief mages did not die. In an experiment they were apprehensive of and cautious about anyway.

And, once again, it was only the second incident that caused Lor'themar to consider jumping ship. He already started considering rejoining the Alliance after his soldiers were caught with their pants down by Mogu statutes after they set camp right next to a Mogu ruin, because how did the Horde dare to expect any level of alertness from them.

Garrosh was more than just an observer, especially since he spoke out volubly and set the basic tenor for the breakdown of the peace talks pretty much unilaterally. Garrosh and Varian were the only two individuals there too dumb to actually recognize an obvious set-up and did their level best to ensure that the talks were doomed to failure.

A court jester's antics could have easily set the tenor for the events at court as well. I wouldn't call court jesters anything resembling the leading parties of a given court because of that fact alone. As you said, Garrosh and Varian were the only idiots too dumb that failed to recognize the attack for what it was. Which is why Thrall was willing to continue the peace process no matter how much Garrosh whined about how it's a weakness into his ear. It was Varian and Varian alone who torpedoed it with his unreasonable demands afterwards.

A realistic Alliance would've wiped out the Horde when it invaded Azeroth in the First and Second Wars after they had been roundly defeated, as opposed to putting them into internment. That being said, the Third War basically showed the value of the two main factions working together - if they hadn't joined forces, we know the combined Scourge and Legion forces would've been victorious in the end.

That would have been hard to do when a realistic Horde wouldn't have pulled as many soldiers as Orgrim did just to pursue Gul'dan for the sake of punishing him while he wasn't actively attacking the Horde, right in the middle of a campaign against the Alliance. And would have pulled the Clans remaining on Draenor before making the final push (if not much earlier).

And they didn't know at the Wrathgate incident that Putress' forces weren't there on behalf of the Horde, either. They had only Sylvanas' word that she was responsible for it and that Putress was attempting a coup on her in the process. Hell, that plot itself remains murky even to this day - as there's been evidence that Sylvanas always had Putress' actions in mind and only used him as a shield of plausible deniability for herself. The Alliance was wrong, but the stance itself was still reasoned well enough, they just didn't have all the facts of the matter (and likely never will).

So did they not know or did they have information from the Horde about it? Can't be both. And Varian took the Horde's explanation at face value. The very idea that Putress wasn't Horde was what motivated him to go to Undercity right then and there, because he wanted to use the fact that the Horde lost (his explicit description, and the Horde couldn't exactly have lost a city to itself) it to Putress as an opportunity to snatch it for Alliance before the Horde managed to regain control.

Fortunately for the Horde, any time they're recognized as rabid dogs by an Alliance character, that character is swiftly lobotomized or villain batted. Have no fear, the Horde will still get to carry out genocides and wonder with wounded innocence why anyone would dislike them.

Let's not pretend that it applies to just one side. If the Alliance is lobotomized that would include Anduin, since he's the one who the Alliance orbits around. And right now most of the Horde leaders are just a bunch of differently shaped Anduins, so if he's lobotomized, so are they.

And as I said, that doesn't matter. Her orders were completely in line with what he did. That he only obeyed them because they did not interfere with his own goals doesn't matter. She gave the order. It happened. Putress loyalty has no bearing on this.

Except his loyalty has everything to do with it. If he was already a free agent trying to characterize his as him continuing to act on Sylvanas' orders is flat out illogical.

You misunderstand. It is cheating because they don't like Thrall. With Sylvanas it wasn't cheating because they love her.

It would indeed be a ridiculous rule in any case to forbid Magic. that would make shamans and other magic-users, who have spend years mastering that skill instead of learning how to swing an axe and building up muscle, automatically disadvantaged against a warrior.

Command over magic is just as much a part of a person's strength as the force of their arms. The Mak'gora puts two people's strength against each other to find out who is stronger. All of their strength. Otherwise it would be a totally unfair ritual, allowing trained warriors to always win against shamans, despite the fact that the shaman can roast them with a gesture. How would that prove the warrior as the stronger one?

Or, if you could try the ancient art of actually reading the post you're commenting on instead of projecting your salt for once, it is cheating for Thrall because he involved other entities in what's fundamentally a 1 on 1 duel, while Sylvanas did not and the usage of magic per se was never the point of contention in my post.

On Jaina becoming OP, why are we ignoring that she got to get tutored by Aegwynn who pretty much was the most powerful arcanist in the Warcraft universe and who has proven that raw power is less important than skill (in how she was able to match a Guardian-empowered, Sargeras-empowered Medivh).

Jaina's tutelage under Aegwynn happened in Cycle of Hated. As in before WoW even began. As in more than half a decade before the events of Tides of War, where she was shown to be still subpar in personal combat to say the least. So the Aegwynn explanation still doesn't really pan out.

Baine has no history with the Horde. When he interacts with us he stabs us in the back. He never talks with any of the other leaders. Or Talks about Anduin. Listen to the latest stay a while and listen. I will never accept him.

While I'm not disputing Baine stabbing the Horde in the back, because that's 99% of what Baine has ever done, stabbing the Horde in the back still constitutes history with the Horde. And that includes history as a Horde member, which I think is what you're getting at here. Because it wouldn't be a stab in the back if he wasn't a member of the Horde. At least nominally. His heart and soul (and balls, spine, dignity, and at least a part of his horn) belong to Anduin.

[Aucald]

Once the Orcs started their war the races they were targeting were very much their enemies. Unless you want me to believe those races just bent over and went along with the Orcs trying to slaughter them (which would need further corroboration, since it contradicts numerous battles already established in the lore), that the Orcs were manipulated to reach the conclusion that the other Draenor's other inhabitants were their enemies has no bearing on what their relations with those races became once they acted on it.

Once the orcs started their war at the Legion's behest they became the enemies of everyone else, yes - a significant distinction. The draenei notably didn't go on the offensive immediately when faced with increasing aggression from the orcs, they opted to use their advanced technology to hide and generally avoided open conflict, little good that it did them in the end. Given the Legion's cooperation and material support to the Horde, it should also be noted that the Horde didn't itself conquer all of Draenor unilaterally - they had a lot of help in that department.

Then please do cite those totally-existing Jaina's immense combat achievements in earlier lore. And please keep in mind that an omniscient narrator described the episode in which she didn't give Thalen as much as a nose bleed despite her hostile (if not lethal) intent as Jaina using "all of her might". In a book. With no gameplay involved. As recently as the Cata-MoP transition, which happened somewhere around 2-3 years prior to her jumping all the way up to a one man army mage-god status in BfA.

A single discrepancy in power doesn't set the eternal baseline for a character's abilities. I know you like to riff on her inexplicable failure to harm Thalen, but that by no means established an eternal upper bound on her relative power, rendering any of her other feats outlandish. Prior to that, she was able to take on a demon and its cult of Warlocks, and she shot a Scourge Necropolis out of the sky over Theramore prior to the events of WotLK. Dalaran didn't train Jaina's generation of Mages solely for support magic and parlor tricks, they revised their educational practices due to the failure of Stormwind's Conjurers in the First War, who didn't have the necessary training in offensive magic to contend with threats like the Horde. Jaina *always* had powerful offensive magic at her beck and call - all Dalaran-trained Mages do, but she was also a prodigy and noted to be exceedingly powerful.

Doesn't change the fact that you're still expecting a further explanation for what's already an explanation here, which could be done ad nauseum for pretty much everything, starting with Jaina's status as a prodigy (that somehow has resulted in absolute nothing combat-wise for stark majority of her life). While merrily ignoring that those are two completely different power systems, with Shamanism relying on one's relationship to sentient entities and not necessarily years of toiling with books. And Thrall was charismatic enough that he convinced Orcs that they should settle in a shithole that he specifically selected to make the entire race suffer so that they could atone for his own green guilt.

Drek'thar specifically notes the speed and natural skill Thrall has with Shamanism in Lord of the Clans, strongly implying that Thrall's skill was something that normally took much longer for a Shaman to attain. Both Thrall and Jaina are prodigies at their given disciplines, but Jaina spent years studying Arcane magic in Dalaran before she begins exercising extreme power (both as a WC3 Hero and a WoW NPC of note), whereas Thrall is able to attain the same power-level in a few weeks.

Doesn't unmake the plot contrivances required for the Horde to collapse on itself and, in turn, for the Alliance to continue existing. From Orgrim keeping Gul'dan even after he fulfilled his purpose and created the Death Knights for him all the way to Sylvanas just noping out. The last one doesn't hold up even to scrutiny from the internal perspective of the event at hand, because Sylvanas supposedly accepted a human puppet's Mak'gora because she wanted him to suffer, even though she would have caused him much more suffering by crushing his shitty rebellion and his human masters while keeping him alive to witness it. And maybe resurrecting his son in front of him as she already threatened him at the beginning of the expansion for some extra suffering.

Even Orgrim accepting Gul'dan's "help" in the creation of the Death Knights was stupid because there's no way he couldn't know that Gul'dan was duplicitous as the day is long. The very notion of depending on Gul'dan for anything speaks to Orgrim's ineptitude as a leader, much less a strategist. The chain of dominoes that led to the Horde's loss in the Second War begins with Orgrim's short-sightedness in trusting Gul'dan in any capacity. As for Sylvanas, she no doubt meant to crush the assembled Horde/Alliance forces at Orgrimmar's gates after dealing with Saurfang - before killing him in anger she hadn't even really done any lethal damage to him, just humiliated him in front of the crowd, so she very well could've accomplished all the above until Saurfang finally tagging her with Shalamyne made her snap and then take her ball and go home.

No, he very much did. Since you need a refresher, Vol'jin's stunt as an advisor summarily ended before Cataclysm even began, after he threw a tantrum so massive even Baine the human footstool thought it gave Garrosh the right to execute him for treason. Which instead ended only with Garrosh telling Vol'jin to fuck off from Orgrimmar. And yet he then appeared in Krasarang out of nowhere, without any summons or any command from his Warchief to un-fuck off from the Echo Isles. With Vol'jin himself answering Garrosh's question as to what he's doing there with a demand to know what the Warchief of the Horde was doing and finished that exchange with a remark that someone has to keep the Warchief in check. Which, you know, is what supervisors do.

Vol'jin was an advisor to the Warchief long before Garrosh's tenure - so no "refresher" is needed, especially one that doesn't seem to fully understand Vol'jin's role as a founding father of the current Horde in the first place. Vol'jin's "treason" was the implicit threat he made to Garrosh as a result of losing his temper, which wasn't great politics, but definitely turned out to be an apt assessment of what eventually came of Garrosh's ruinous career as Warchief. And the above is glossing over Garrosh's own blustery ranting when he was revealed to have significant daddy issues, bristling at a warning that he was crossing a line with his warmongering, which was also shown to be true. Vol'jin's people, like the Goblins and Blood Elves, had also been restricted from the Valley of Strength well before Vol'jin's threat to Garrosh - part and parcel of what led to Vol'jin and the Darkspear leaving Orgrimmar in disgust to rebuild the Echo Isles into their own functioning capitol.

And suspicion is one thing. When Baine joined Vol'jin in 5.3 he outright stated that Garrosh betrayed his father. Which is a sentiment he miraculously dropped afterwards once again. As for the Blood Elves, the very point of that experiment was to learn about the Sha, because it was the very beginning of the Horde's adventure with those energies and future fuck ups involving it couldn't have factored into Lor'themar's decision to reconsider "old alliances". Which instead stemmed only from the fact that his chief mages did not die. In an experiment they were apprehensive of and cautious about anyway.

One could easily say Garrosh did betray Cairne by allowing a valuable relationship to fracture through Garrosh's own stubbornness and pride, leading to an unnecessary Mak'gora that resulted in Cairne's avoidable death. Lor'themar's lack of trust in Garrosh is well-founded, with the experiences with the Sha just being further irons in the fire of Garrosh treating the Blood Elves both as expendable fodder and second-class citizens in the Horde. Use of the Sha energies ended with Garrosh's own men rampaging through the Horde base in Pandaria, as well, further underlining Lor'themar's own observations about the state of Garrosh's senses and his inability to govern.

A court jester's antics could have easily set the tenor for the events at court as well. I wouldn't call court jesters anything resembling the leading parties of a given court because of that fact alone. As you said, Garrosh and Varian were the only idiots too dumb that failed to recognize the attack for what it was. Which is why Thrall was willing to continue the peace process no matter how much Garrosh whined about how it's a weakness into his ear. It was Varian and Varian alone who torpedoed it with his unreasonable demands afterwards.

Garrosh did a lot more than just "whine in Thrall's ear" - Garrosh can't really go without making his opinions known to one and all, and just like their earlier encounter in Ulduar both Garrosh and Varian almost came to blows over the perceived betrayal. That's just not Varian being an idiot, which he most certainly was, but he wasn't alone in ensuring the peace talks went nowhere.

That would have been hard to do when a realistic Horde wouldn't have pulled as many soldiers as Orgrim did just to pursue Gul'dan for the sake of punishing him while he wasn't actively attacking the Horde, right in the middle of a campaign against the Alliance. And would have pulled the Clans remaining on Draenor before making the final push (if not much earlier).

"Woulda, coulda, shoulda..." As opposed to rewriting the entire Second War, I'm just talking about the Alliance's sole act of allowing the Horde to persist after their conclusive defeat in the Second War.

So did they not know or did they have information from the Horde about it? Can't be both. And Varian took the Horde's explanation at face value. The very idea that Putress wasn't Horde was what motivated him to go to Undercity right then and there, because he wanted to use the fact that the Horde lost (his explicit description, and the Horde couldn't exactly have lost a city to itself) it to Putress as an opportunity to snatch it for Alliance before the Horde managed to regain control.

They only learned after the incident in question - and on the heels of that, they had only Thrall's word, itself being given by Sylvanas, who both Thrall and Varian had ample reason not to explicitly trust. It can also very well be both, from the Alliance's perspective, it could've easily been an engineered incident to cripple both the Alliance forces and the Scourge, allowing the Horde to run roughshod over both if immediate reprisal didn't occur. Regardless of whether Putress was or wasn't Horde, as in whether or not Sylvanas was actually in the midst of a coup or simply using the Horde and Alliance to establish plausible deniability for herself with Putress as the sacrifice, Varian could still capitalize on the destabilizing of the Undercity as a chance to regain territory for the Alliance. He was explicitly there to beard the Horde, which is why he took the fight straight to Thrall after disposing of Putress himself.

[Arganis]

Horde has never been properly managed. It was all downhill after Garrosh. Mainly because every Horde leader seems to either be soulless or a throwaway character.

To make people care your leaders need longevity and meaningful accomplishments. The only Horde leader left with that claim is Thrall and he's a one dimensional mary sue.

Worst example of all is Vol'jin. The way that character was managed is the prototype for why Horde lore in WoW is meaningless.