Give the Horde better leaders.

[VladlTutushkin]

Forget it. It is not getting through. He is not living in reality. So he either ignores this fact outright or makes up a reason why this only happened because of the true evil mastermind Baine Bloodhoof. We can explain it a thousand times and he will deny it. It is pointless effort.

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Slavery, racism, ouright murdering people for minor disagreements, empowering psychotic people because they have the fortune to be born with access to space magic...

Yup. Shining example of a government we should aspire to.

Maybe you should move to North Korea, I think you would love it there. Would have the upside (for us) of cutting you off from internet access too...

It just how it goes, really. A lot of people fetishize "evil empires" until they live in one (or something sort of kinda similar).

[Grazrug]

Forget it. It is not getting through. He is not living in reality. So he either ignores this fact outright or makes up a reason why this only happened because of the true evil mastermind Baine Bloodhoof. We can explain it a thousand times and he will deny it. It is pointless effort.

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Slavery, racism, ouright murdering people for minor disagreements, empowering psychotic people because they have the fortune to be born with access to space magic...

Yup. Shining example of a government we should aspire to.

Maybe you should move to North Korea, I think you would love it there. Would have the upside (for us) of cutting you off from internet access too...

The Empire respects power. The Horde removes power. I surley know which kind of people I would give my support if I get asked about it.

[Shadowferal]

Sylvanas brought the Horde greatness. All Baine is doing was causing strive and conflict. Try argue with facts.

And yet Sylvanas was a slave...leading a horde of slaves.

[Raisei]

Having opinions is one thing, going on a rant about how the Horde is the ultimate evil, how its members must be killed or enslaved and how the Alliance absolutely has to win the faction conflict every time someone even mutters the word 'Horde' is a slightly different thing imo.

You missunderstand. The reason the Alliance will win the faction conflict is not because of people playing Alliance, it is because of game mechanics and the Horde's need to destroy and kill everything.
The Horde goal in the faction conflicts to date were "destroying the Alliance" literally. Wiping out Stormwind turning it's people into more undead for the Forsaken / Rivers of Blood / Mountains of Skulls, yadda yadda yadda.

Things that simply CANNOT happen in an MMO with two faction piloted by players. If the Horde would win then the consequence is the deletion of halve the playerbase and that simply will not do.

The Alliance on the other hand always just fights for survival, their victory means that the status quo can be reastablished. Especially since the Alliance never enforces any kind of penalties on the Horde, it is just satisfied with the idea that the war was started by a single person alone with noone else in the Horde carrying any blame.

Hence the Alliance will always win. It is inevitable.

This is also why the nonesensical repeat of this cycle hold no interesting story to tell. The end is clear.


Besides that, the last two faction wars happened 1) because of a self-possessed manchild with daddy issues, that thought he could just take whatever he wants and ended up a pawn of the Void Lords and 2) because of a Horde member literally making a deal with the devil to send the souls of all living things on Azeroth to super hell.
And the rest of the Horde was happy to help them until they realized that maybe their own lifes are in danger from these people too.

If this isn't "evil" then I don't know what is.

[Nymrohd]

As long as you define Horde and Alliance greatness entirely in their military binary, you fail. Greatness for both the Horde and the Alliance should be presented not by them achieving goals against the other but instead by improving the lives of their people and showing that in game. Grander architecture, deeper, richer culture, better integration of all member races of either faction in their leadership and storylines are what will make me think that either faction has great leaders. The faction war narrative has been proven pointless time and again and the gains of one patch are erased in the next (just look at BfA) which is inevitable. If you think that the only way for your prefered faction to be great is for it to win against the Other you are not paying attention.

[Raisei]

The Empire respects power. The Horde removes power. I surley know which kind of people I would give my support if I get asked about it.

Oh yes, tons of respect for power.

Unless you have too little of it, then you will be killed. Or if you have too much of it, then people will gather together to kill you.

Again you are not looking at things happening in the games you are playing, you are creating some kind of fantasy in your head and argue based on that. Then everything that does not fit in with your headcannon is filtered out. Like the objective fact that Sylvanas betrayed the Horde, stated by herself in the game, in the book, by the writers, yet you cannot make yourself confront this truth.

Seriously man, this is not healthy. I don't think posting in this forum is doing you any good.

[Caiphon]

Things that simply CANNOT happen in an MMO with two faction piloted by players. If the Horde would win then the consequence is the deletion of halve the playerbase and that simply will not do.

If you acknowledge this you're really not the demographic I was trying to address. There are a couple of extremely vocal folks who insist that the Horde is dismantled and its members enslaved while the Alliance prevails (fairly visible in the last page or two), because 'justice' or something. Some people simply fail to see that Blizzard will never openly antagonise half the playerbase.

The Alliance on the other hand always just fights for survival, their victory means that the status quo can be reastablished. Especially since the Alliance never enforces any kind of penalties on the Horde, it is just satisfied with the idea that the war was started by a single person alone with noone else in the Horde carrying any blame.

Hence the Alliance will always win. It is inevitable.

This assumes future conflicts will also be triggered by some insane individual donning the mantle of Warchief when the post doesn't even exist anymore. At this point the one individual with the greatest power and authority on Azeroth is the High King of the Alliance. If Blizzard ever pulls off a Faction War arc again I'd rather we switch aggressor and defender roles this time round with the High King or acting High King trying to subjugate the Horde. Would make more sense than Bald Man mind controlling Sylvanas to erase all life on Azeroth.

Besides that, the last two faction wars happened 1) because of a self-possessed manchild with daddy issues, that thought he could just take whatever he wants and ended up a pawn of the Void Lords and 2) because of a Horde member literally making a deal with the devil to send the souls of all living things on Azeroth to super hell.
And the rest of the Horde was happy to help them until they realized that maybe their own lifes are in danger from these people too.

If this isn't "evil" then I don't know what is.

Both individuals held an absolute position of authority that they weren't exactly elected into. Garrosh was selected because Dranosh died and Thrall had to leave in a hurry. Sylvanas was more or less placed in position by Mueh'zala. And if the rest of the Horde were happy we wouldn't have seen the Vol'jin plot in MoP or the rebel arc in BfA. Lor'themar was literally about to switch sides in MoP had Jaina not killed off the Sunreavers. A lot of players seem to forget about these aspects even after literally siding up with Vol'jin/Baine/Saurfang to raid Orgrimmar.

[Shadowferal]

That's why I'm keeping Varian's rant about Thrall and his "monstrous horde." Sure, one could say that Varian grew up, while Garrosh didn't. But I think there could have been more interplay among other Horde leaders.

[Nymrohd]

Both individuals held an absolute position of authority that they weren't exactly elected into. Garrosh was selected because Dranosh died and Thrall had to leave in a hurry.

Still everyone told Thrall it was a bad idea, even Garrosh thought it was a bad idea. If he needed a Warchief, Cairne was right there.

[Aresk]

[...]trolls wouldn't lose enother long established hero the moment he appeared in game which was incredibly discouraging.

Genuinely curious, what established Rastakhan as a hero? The Zandalari got basically no mention before Vanilla, at which point they enlisted aid of the Alliance and Horde vs the Gurubashi, and after that they only showed up as antagonists, with the Horde's trolls specifically targeted the efforts of the Zandalari in Cataclysm. While I'm aware the conflicts in Cata and MoP were at Zul's initiation, they also occurred under Rastakhan's watch and with his permission, if not his blessing. I feel like there must be some lore I'm missing out on here that showed Rastakhan in some heroic light.

Sylvanas brought the Horde greatness. All Baine is doing was causing strive and conflict. Try argue with facts.

I don't need to argue against this, because you've already done so. Sylvanas led the Horde into BfA, and per your own words...

Bfa was not about the Horde being bloodhirsty. It was about the Horde loathing itself while the alliance rolled around collecting victories left and right. Like literally NOTHING good happened for the Horde because a of something that was a minor issue in every other game.

Sylvanas brought the Horde greatness by...delivering it into a war where nothing good happened for the Horde. Unless there's some nuance between these two statements that I'm missing, you've contradicted yourself.

[Nymrohd]

Genuinely curious, what established Rastakhan as a hero? The Zandalari got basically no mention before Vanilla, at which point they enlisted aid of the Alliance and Horde vs the Gurubashi, and after that they only showed up as antagonists, with the Horde's trolls specifically targeted the efforts of the Zandalari in Cataclysm. While I'm aware the conflicts in Cata and MoP were at Zul's initiation, they also occurred under Rastakhan's watch and with his permission, if not his blessing. I feel like there must be some lore I'm missing out on here that showed Rastakhan in some heroic light.

There really isn't. Headcanon is a powerful drug. Rastakhan was an ineffectual leader who led the Zandalari to irrelevance and had it not been for Talanji and the Horde heroes, Zandalar would have fallen.
He still however was a notable troll that was killed soon after he became important. Given what happened to Zul'jin and Vol'jin it absolutely makes sense for troll fans to be bitter for Rastakhan even though in-game his death did not really matter (and truth be told was stupid, the entire assault was the most stupid moment of the Alliance; they should have blown up the Golden Fleet, mooned the Zandalari and Horde and then sailed off; instead of galvanizing Zandalari support for the Horde Rastakhan would have probably kicked most of the Horde out except for the Heroes).

[Caiphon]

Still everyone told Thrall it was a bad idea, even Garrosh thought it was a bad idea. If he needed a Warchief, Cairne was right there.

I recall the logic at the time was that 1) Cairne was pretty old (reason why Saurfang was excluded as well) and 2) the orcs weren't ready to have a non-orc Warchief. Was still a bad choice though.

[Feanoro]

Blizzard will never openly antagonise half the playerbase.

Hahahaha... Oh wait, you're serious? Let me laugh even harder. HAHAHAHAHA.

Yeah, Blizzard definitely would never
- blow multiple cities off the map
- show civilians tortured for funsies
- repeatedly mock half the playerbase, including hiring someone to scream slurs at them
- portray a faction as victims and losers
- preach repeatedly that if they fight back they're the evil ones
- never allow any victories except by forfeit or if they're pyrrhic.
- rush to assure the perpetrators of a genocide that everything will be fine, while mocking the victims
- portray those victims having to suffer in hell, then sacrifice for a vague promise, while their allies rush to rebuild their murderers' cities
- and more than can be quickly listed

"Never openly antagonise", my foot. Only way you can genuinely think this is if you joined in the last few weeks and haven't a clue what's been going on for more than a decade.

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That's why I'm keeping Varian's rant about Thrall and his "monstrous horde." Sure, one could say that Varian grew up, while Garrosh didn't. But I think there could have been more interplay among other Horde leaders.

No, Varian suffered the traditional Alliance character lobotomy. He mellowed on the Horde based on ONE orc behaving like something besides a killing machine for five minutes. Meanwhile, the Horde kept merrily committing atrocities and racking up the body count.

[Melorandor]

Sylvanas brought the Horde greatness. All Baine is doing was causing strive and conflict. Try argue with facts.

Sylvanas managed to tear the Horde apart faster than Garrosh.

[Caiphon]

Hahahaha... Oh wait, you're serious? Let me laugh even harder. HAHAHAHAHA.

Yeah, Blizzard definitely would never
- blow multiple cities off the map
- show civilians tortured for funsies
- repeatedly mock half the playerbase, including hiring someone to scream slurs at them
- portray a faction as victims and losers
- preach repeatedly that if they fight back they're the evil ones
- never allow any victories except by forfeit or if they're pyrrhic.
- rush to assure the perpetrators of a genocide that everything will be fine, while mocking the victims
- portray those victims having to suffer in hell, then sacrifice for a vague promise, while their allies rush to rebuild their murderers' cities
- and more than can be quickly listed

"Never openly antagonise", my foot. Only way you can genuinely think this is if you joined in the last few weeks and haven't a clue what's been going on for more than a decade.

I mean if you're salty about the Alliance being victims we could always switch roles, have Turalyon or Anduin go batshit insane and slaughter Tauren or something only to be taken down by a joint Horde-Tyrande-Velen offensive in a Siege of Stormwind. But strangely for all the 'Horde bias' fanboys claim none seem to actually want to switch positions and take the villain role. They want to keep being the hero while also being aggressors but as the saying goes you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

I mean seriously, ask yourself. If your faction was reduced to pathetic villains that get their asses spanked continuously by righteous heros of the light that can never ever do wrong, would you even play this game? That's essentially what you're asking the Horde and its players to be by insisting that the Alliance be righteous and aggressive at the same time. There's a reason why the fodder role is given to NPC factions, because no sane person would pay to play that role.

[Shadowferal]

There's a reason why the fodder role is given to NPC factions, because no sane person would pay to play that role.

Another reason for my rewrite hobby. Some of that "fodder" will look very different with the proper perspective. And players won't even see murlocs as a joke afterwards.

[Grazrug]

Sylvanas managed to tear the Horde apart faster than Garrosh.

Sylvanas had the support of the majority. All Saurfang could gather was a handful of Orcs and the racial leaders. That is the reason why it is mostly Undead, Blood elves and Goblins in chains after the event. The races who make the biggest part of the Horde military.

[Nymrohd]

I mean if you're salty about the Alliance being victims we could always switch roles, have Turalyon or Anduin go batshit insane and slaughter Tauren or something only to be taken down by a joint Horde-Tyrande-Velen offensive in a Siege of Stormwind. But strangely for all the 'Horde bias' fanboys claim none seem to actually want to switch positions and take the villain role. They want to keep being the hero while also being aggressors but as the saying goes you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

I mean seriously, ask yourself. If your faction was reduced to pathetic villains that get their asses spanked continuously by righteous heros of the light that can never ever do wrong, would you even play this game? That's essentially what you're asking the Horde and its players to be by insisting that the Alliance be righteous and aggressive at the same time. There's a reason why the fodder role is given to NPC factions, because no sane person would pay to play that role.

Really the Horde and Alliance fans bickering seems so ludicrous. Both fanbases are abused by the product, just in different ways. No one actually gets any satisfaction from the lore when it turns to faction war. Our only chance to get anything positive out of this is to either have a storyline that is largely positive and constructive (ideal for a Revamp) or to show the factions interacting outside a military setting (but hopefully not in the saccharine manner present in several Dragonflight quests). Of course hopes are low because often when the story is not about the faction war the writers focus entirely on their pet characters and the iconic characters of the setting which fails to represent the fanbase at all (with the majority of those characters being human with very limited representation for everyone else).

[Caiphon]

Really the Horde and Alliance fans bickering seems so ludicrous. Both fanbases are abused by the product, just in different ways. No one actually gets any satisfaction from the lore when it turns to faction war. Our only chance to get anything positive out of this is to either have a storyline that is largely positive and constructive (ideal for a Revamp) or to show the factions interacting outside a military setting (but hopefully not in the saccharine manner present in several Dragonflight quests). Of course hopes are low because often when the story is not about the faction war the writers focus entirely on their pet characters and the iconic characters of the setting which fails to represent the fanbase at all (with the majority of those characters being human with very limited representation for everyone else).

To be honest I think all-out faction wars go against the original design of the game. WoW is a direct sequel to Warcraft 3, a game where Humans, Orcs and Night Elves fought together to push back a cosmic level threat. Throughout the Vanilla~WotLK era heroes of the Alliance and Horde fought off world-ending threats like Ragnaros, C'Thun, half of Kil'jaeden, Yogg-Saron and finally the Lich King himself. WoW was never SWTOR or Warhammer where a good faction and an evil faction collide - it's actually closer to FFXIV where different people from different nations cooperate to address great evils (though the Alliance and Horde never got along that well).

But I do have to admit that Blizzard's writing doesn't seem to have improved significantly with faction wars out of the way, if Shadowlands is any measure (shudder).

[Raisei]

This assumes future conflicts will also be triggered by some insane individual donning the mantle of Warchief when the post doesn't even exist anymore.

Give it an expansion or two. There are still several war-horny individuals on the council. All it needs is some event that kills off a few of the peaceful members and boom, next faction war. Blizzard has always listened to the players that vocally called for Alliance blood and they will again. The question isn't "if", but "which city will burn next".

At this point the one individual with the greatest power and authority on Azeroth is the High King of the Alliance.

Long as Anduin is the boss the Alliance won't do a thing. Turalyon might be an option now, but I really hope not. Even if we turn the table and have the Alliance be the one to start the war for once the result will be exactly the same: Nothing. Just 3 years of uninspired killing of the other faction with the result being "Let's be friends again."

If Blizzard ever pulls off a Faction War arc again I'd rather we switch aggressor and defender roles this time round with the High King or acting High King trying to subjugate the Horde. Would make more sense than Bald Man mind controlling Sylvanas to erase all life on Azeroth.

Considering all the shit the Horde has pulled in the last few years alone, yes, it would make sense. But that is not how the game works. If Turalyon is starting anything it will turn out to be the result of a Naaru brainwashing him (again) or something.
Poltical plots aren't a thing in WoW, especially not with a writer like Danuser at the helm, who is too busy bending the laws of reality so that his waifu Sylvanas can survive after being a genocidal monster for two decades.

Both individuals held an absolute position of authority that they weren't exactly elected into. Garrosh was selected because Dranosh died and Thrall had to leave in a hurry. Sylvanas was more or less placed in position by Mueh'zala. And if the rest of the Horde were happy we wouldn't have seen the Vol'jin plot in MoP or the rebel arc in BfA. Lor'themar was literally about to switch sides in MoP had Jaina not killed off the Sunreavers. A lot of players seem to forget about these aspects even after literally siding up with Vol'jin/Baine/Saurfang to raid Orgrimmar.

The problem is that we have seen in MoP how the Horde can indeed rebell if their Warchief goes nuts, so despite the Blood Oath they know of this option because they took it before. Then we have Sylvanas who torches a tree full of civilians, something even worse then what Garrosh did and the only Horde members who speak up are Saurfang and Baine. Implicitly meaning that the rest were okay with the mass murder.
If they are okay with that then they deserve to be wiped out. If they didn't want to be associated with Sylvanas actions then they should have gotten off their asses the moment she shouted "Burn it."
You cannot follow such orders and then claim that you had no choice when the past has shown you literally refusing orders, when this happened before.

Of course, as I said, the game cannot work with that, so the Horde is absolved of all wrongdoing and it is all Sylvanas fault. Just as it will be when Talanji or Rokhan or the Mag'har leader loose their marbles.