Give the Horde better leaders.

[Shadowferal]

I have to say you all are reinforcing my fascination with the troll races, and my determination to rewrite the lore.

[Aucald]

Except the very description of King Dazar was - that He led Zandalari "out of the muck and mire and built a city of gold." Nazmir was apparently swampland before Saundering and Cataclysm. This is why it's such a lorelol. Zandalar makes LOTS of stuff like that, where connecting the dots and making a sense out of it is just causing a massive headache because developers really didn't think that much through it.

Which could well just be Dazar or his descendants aggrandizing his own legend, as similar statements like "X led their people out of the wilds" have been made to establish the legend of kings and rulers since time out of mind. The "muck and mire" here may well be proverbial and not point to Nazmir specifically, especially since we know that Nazmir wasn't a swamp until well after Dazar's reign. "Muck and mire" may just mean the trolls who became the Zandalari lived in poor conditions or on poor land before they traveled with Dazar and built Dazar'alor upon the slopes of their sacred mountains.

It really doesn't matter, because it still doesn't answer the question that is - why Zandalari scholars never investigated this place, if Nazmir was inhabitated then they likely had to stumble upon Titan facilities and they had to at least briefly check it. They were able to recognise sleeping C'Thraxxi long before Aquir Wars started, but they were not able investige their own very lands? Especially when they were expanding and building thier cities? Uldir wasn't really that deeply buried.

Again, *if* the above refers to Nazmir, which it in all likelihood doesn't, not specifically by any means. Titan facilities are hidden by more than burial, but also highly-complex magical and technological means that the Zandalari lacked the prowess to crack until it was cracked for them by the twin forces of the Cataclysm and the Blood Trolls digging it up and exposing themselves to G'huun's corruption.

I am pretty sure you knew exactly what I meant. And you should know very well that nameless NPCs that does nothing of importance hardly counts as a "deep dive" to Zandalari lore. We merely know that they exist, so what I found frustrating was that instead of exploring their field of expertise, how they practive magic, as they were meant to not be strangers to Arcane - on how they vield it, what is the difference between them and elven or human magic, do they combine it with Voodoo? Who is their Loa Patron? Are we meant to assume that Zanza is patron of Arcanitals? If So, why was he demoted to a Lesser Loa? These stuff deserved to be covered instead of having repeated story beats from previous expansions like "Heart of Darkness" 2.0 / "Assault on Zul'Farrak" 2.0 but this time with Gurubashi. And many more. But no, the Capital of Zandalar, where you have Zanza doesn't even have Enchanting expert to be zanadalari Troll, - it's a blood elf, so not even profession related quest could cover the lore of Zandalari enchanting. This is a missed opportiunity, and forever lost because I'm willing to bet, that same opportiunity won't ever come.

I agree not deep diving into Zandalari lore was a missed opportunity, but sadly it is what it is. WoW never really does enough exploration of the lore from an in-game standpoint, at least in my view - which is a large part of why the various books and short stories exist.

Talanji said that After Cataclysm, Rastakhan and his Zandalari were involved in rebuilding the city, that implies he pulled people from Nazmir to restore Zuldazar, so it's not that big of oversight. Regardless, as you noticed the blood troll threat is inconcistent, and doesn't really make much sense when you try to analise it. There is lots of questions and very little answers, and the more I try to think about it the more headache I get. The entire concept of dedicating such a big zone for a book reference is just insulting to me, when there is so much more of Zandalari lore to explore. Zandalar is the most ancient Kingdom on Azeroth, and yet 2/3 is in ruins, and 2/3 of the conted barely even covers Zandalari lore - no, you get distracted with Titans, asspull trolls, Sethrak, Vulpera, which take away precious screentime and option to learn as much about Zandalari as possible. That is absolutely heartbreaking to me. When the hoenymoon phase ended - I actually started to have the questing experience. Where Rastakhan ended up as one of the very few things that I really enjoyed in this portrayal. I loved his personality and that despite commiting mistakes, he was willing to learn and willing to fix it. But they killed him, Vol'Jin's death didn't teach them anything.

Given what the Cataclysm did to Nazmir, there's no doubt there was an influx of refugees from the region pouring into Zuldazar - but that actually compounds Rastakhan's issues at the time as opposed to explaining them. A refugee crisis and the capital of Zandalar collapsing around would be a lot of irons in the fire for any monarch. The Black Empire is actually the most ancient civilization on Azeroth, as it predates the emergence of the trolls considerably, and even the arrival of the Titans the creation of the Well of Eternity, which led to the genesis of the trolls. As for the issues with the exploration of Zandalari lore and so forth, that I agree is a failing of BfA. The issue being that despite the leveling content being on Zandalar and Kul Tiras, the story of the expansion wasn't really *about* those locales in any real sense, not in the way MoP explored Pandaria or Legion explored the Broken Isles (despite it also not being about them) - BfA just glosses over major zones that have been huge requests by fans since time out of mind. I really is a disservice to Zandalar and Kul Tiras both.

Oh I disagree, capturing Talanji could really work becuase they would use her as a hostage to prevent Zandalari from retaliation if King wouldn't want to lose her too. Kinda like Horde planned to capture Teldrassil to stop Nelves and Alliance stop attacking them in Silithus. But then Sylvanas went full retard and blew it, causing irreversable stain on already damaged Horde reputation.

Kul Tiras, being separate from and somewhat antagonistic toward the Alliance at the time, would likely have no real concern about capturing Talanji en route to visiting the Horde as a dignitary. They likely also wouldn't want to antagonize both Zandalar and Orgrimmar, as that would be a problem for Kul Tiras without Alliance backing.

I don't like excuses. Especially when we all saw what devs are capable of already. We saw how they handled Suramar so I see no reason why Zandalari shouldn't get the same standard - especially when it has reputation of the most Ancient Kingdom on Azeroth, the detail should be mindblowing, instead we got what we got- heck even tailoring shop had a anchor in the corner for some readon- that kind of detail was given to Zandalar. Kul'Tirans had those too in Stormsong. And having fields in the mountains, or water gardens as people of early Mexico had would be a delight to have. But no - let's have gorilla village. Lets have 2 Naga invasions.

In order to get that kind of in-depth exploration, you'd need an expansion that wasn't overshadowed by something like the greater faction war, or what have you. That's really another problem with the continual faction war arc, it always overshadows and underdelivers whenever it comes to the fore in a given expansion. It lamed Cata pretty much out of the gate, it's the worst part of MoP, and we've covered a lot of the issues with BfA.

I just really hate double standards. Horde's rooster keeps on shrinking, trolls always had laughable stock when it comes to important Characters. Making Rastakhan disposable just to be replaced with his super young shiny daughter is very discouraging- becuase why we couldn't have both?

I don't really see it as a double standard as much as a different story altogether. It's not required, nor would it really be that great, if both the Alliance and Horde stories had to share the same beats 1:1 for every single story arc that happens. Similar stories with different people who make different decisions should have different outcomes. Now part of that could come down to the fact that I was simply never greatly enamored of Rastakhan, and YMMV on that score. As I said before, I found him ineffectual and felt he was chewing the scenery all the way back to Cata and patch 4.1, where Zul (with the authority of Rastakhan) tried to rouse the fallen kingdoms of Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub into a unified empire again, failed spectacularly, and then tried to steal land from the Pandaren in MoP and allied with the Thunder King (which Rastakhan disavowed, but stills bears responsibility for as Zul was still his minion at the time).

Alliance for years had Tyrande and Malfurion, Genn and Lorna, Varian and Anduin (until Legion, but he still had 4 expansions of good run), and now we will have Jaina and Catherine AND she will get even her own brother miraculously perserved after years rotting on the bottom of the sea where he was meant to be incinarated. Why there couldn't be Rastakhan and Talanji, why Horde cannot have at least one established family? I guess you could count Thrall too with Aggra, but other than that? It's all crickets. And trolls really need some important lore figures.

I try not to get into the morass of comparing the Horde and Alliance rosters in terms of "fairness" or the endless hunt for or accusations of bias. I prefer to explore the story as it is, without unduly inserting my perspective or opinions about it. What happens in the story is what happens in the story, like it or not; but I will say I'd like for the in-game experience to relate more of that story to us by whatever means are appropriate (e.g. cutscenes, in-game texts, vignettes, etc.)

[Ramz]

I have to say you all are reinforcing my fascination with the troll races, and my determination to rewrite the lore.

You're welcome. I'm already doing my part on Epsilon where I pretty much redesign Zandalar to cover all the things I wanted to be covered, and the first thing I did was addind Zanza to be on the display.

[Nymrohd]

You're welcome. I'm already doing my part on Epsilon where I pretty much redesign Zandalar to cover all the things I wanted to be covered, and the first thing I did was addind Zanza to be on the display.

I honestly would have had Zanza be on the Zanchuli Council representing the Loa or the land itself.

[Grazrug]

Apologies for my last post. Idk how to quote single passages so I quoted the whole thing. Won't happen again.

[Varodoc]

This is why I agree with you that BfA was storywriting disaster.
And why I disagree that disposal of Rastakhan was a good thing. Because you see in the same very expansion Katherine was also super incompetent, she lost her fleet, she was played by her friend (Zul at least had excuse of being successful prophet), she didn't do anything to stop horrors in Drustvar, and hero had to undo it all. But unlike Rastakhan she was not killed off for her incompetency, which is even more infuriating because it was not her, but Rastakhan who tried to make amends for his mistakes. You'd think that he should've be given a chance unlike many other characters before him, who didn't have to pay the ultimate price for causing disasters. Heck, Sylvanas is still doing great.

How can you even compare Rastakhan to Katherine... First of all, Katherine was never supposed to take the throne or rule. She was just the spouse of the Lord Admiral. She was entrusted with the position after her children were either exiled (Jaina), dead (Derek), or believed to have died (Tandred). She was literally never taught how to rule because no one expected her to rule one day. You can't really blame her for having been a bad leader when she was never educated to rule. She, at least, kept the peace in Kul Tiras for 10 years. Meanwhile, Rastakhan was always the heir to the throne and was presumably taught how to rule (clearly he was a slow learner ), but he was clearly incompetent, and there was no peace in Zandalar. Both the Blood trolls and the Sethrak were massing on the borders of the empire and preparing to invade. Katherine, while incompetent, at least ensured no invading force was threatening her kingdom.

Secondly, the big difference is that Ashvane was Katherine's best friend, they both bonded when they both lost husbands at Theramore. Meanwhile, Rastakhan knew that Zul was a crazy psychopath who even started wars with the Alliance and the Horde and even ordered his agents to destroy Ironforge (a major Alliance city). So it is understandable why Katherine would trust Ashvane so much, it is not understandable why Rastakhan would keep Zul in his royal council after all the shit he pulled.

Rastakhan deserved to die, Katherine didn't. The story believed that Katherine could be excused for her mistakes and didn't deserve to die. The story believed that Rastakhan was inexcusable and deserved to lose his life as punishment for his mistakes. It's pretty simple.

And ultimately, Katherine, unlike Rastakhan, knew when it was time to abdicate. She knew that she was not to fit to rule. Meanwhile Rastakhan, in his pride, not only didn't abdicate in favour of his clearly better daughter, but also doomed his entire bloodline to serve a malicious death entity who is reviled and despised by all other Gods of their pantheon.

[Grazrug]

The guy above me does not argue in good faith. He basically tells Horde players to suck it whenever Blizzard kills yet another amazing lore character or leader. If they ever decide to axe Alleria because void makes her crazy than we know who will be crying about it the loudest

[Feanoro]

if there's actually a Horde player out there that calls the Alliance PC a loser that dude really needs to consider what his own character has achieved throughout the expansion.

Keep reading this forum, and browse the backlog.

Oh, and bear in mind that Blizzard has openly mocked Alliance players too.

[Grazrug]

I hope Blizzard considers my request from the OP. I want to change the Horde for the better.

[Shadowferal]

I hope Blizzard considers my request from the OP. I want to change the Horde for the better.

*chuckles*
I'm sure they're considering it as much as they're considering sending me an offer letter for my manuscript of rewritten lore, and a contract with 6 figures a year with all the bennies for 3yrs, with a sign on bonus of an additional 6 figures.

[Feanoro]

I hope Blizzard considers my request from the OP. I want to change the Horde for the better.

By making them disposable cannon fodder for the Legion or Bald Man. What an improvement!

Don't worry, I'm sure in an expansion or two, they'll cater to all the Evil Horde fans again by blowing another Alliance city off the map and genociding another Alliance race, all because Talanji made a bargain with Dark Lord Tot'ally Truust'Wurthee.

[geco]

One thing that comes to mind with this is that Tyrande doesn't hold a huge grudge against the Horde.
Tyrande was supposed to be a threat. But she will never attack the Horde if the Horde doesn't attack first. Nor with the Evernight. She just doesn't want to have anything to do with it.

One thing you need to have "good leaders" is that they defend the Horde and that's going to be difficult if no one attacks the Horde.
The few times someone attacks the Horde it's usually another Horde character. And in those cases Varock failed to defend her.

For now in that thread we can only go for Talanji who is the only one who was attacked by the Aliana and is willing to defend the Horde. But just Talanji is the Horde least Horde leader of all (she is literally not a member of the Horde just a friend of the Horde .. and she does well)

[Grazrug]

The rest of the Horde council can be written off as stooges. They have no solid worth for the faction. They need to be removed.

- - - Updated - - -

One thing that comes to mind with this is that Tyrande doesn't hold a huge grudge against the Horde.
Tyrande was supposed to be a threat. But she will never attack the Horde if the Horde doesn't attack first. Nor with the Evernight. She just doesn't want to have anything to do with it.

One thing you need to have "good leaders" is that they defend the Horde and that's going to be difficult if no one attacks the Horde.
The few times someone attacks the Horde it's usually another Horde character. And in those cases Varock failed to defend her.

For now in that thread we can only go for Talanji who is the only one who was attacked by the Aliana and is willing to defend the Horde. But just Talanji is the Horde least Horde leader of all (she is literally not a member of the Horde just a friend of the Horde .. and she does well)

Talanji won't attack the Alliance without the rest of the Horde aiding her. So she and her grudge is currently contained.

- - - Updated - - -

*chuckles*
I'm sure they're considering it as much as they're considering sending me an offer letter for my manuscript of rewritten lore, and a contract with 6 figures a year with all the bennies for 3yrs, with a sign on bonus of an additional 6 figures.

I am optimistic. I have contacted the Devs on multiple platforms and I hope one day they will read my takes on the lore.

[geco]

Talanji won't attack the Alliance without the rest of the Horde aiding her. So she and her grudge is currently contained.

The important thing is not to attack. The important thing is to defend.

The one who attacks is the bad guy who must be killed. The one who defends is the hero of the day.
.
.

Or of course this may not apply to Blizzard. Where Tyrande is the "bad" and Jaina and Genn who attack random people are the "good".
But hey assuming good writing.

[Ramz]

How can you even compare Rastakhan to Katherine... First of all, Katherine was never supposed to take the throne or rule. She was just the spouse of the Lord Admiral. She was entrusted with the position after her children were either exiled (Jaina), dead (Derek), or believed to have died (Tandred). She was literally never taught how to rule because no one expected her to rule one day. You can't really blame her for having been a bad leader when she was never educated to rule. She, at least, kept the peace in Kul Tiras for 10 years. Meanwhile, Rastakhan was always the heir to the throne and was presumably taught how to rule (clearly he was a slow learner ), but he was clearly incompetent, and there was no peace in Zandalar. Both the Blood trolls and the Sethrak were massing on the borders of the empire and preparing to invade. Katherine, while incompetent, at least ensured no invading force was threatening her kingdom.

Secondly, the big difference is that Ashvane was Katherine's best friend, they both bonded when they both lost husbands at Theramore. Meanwhile, Rastakhan knew that Zul was a crazy psychopath who even started wars with the Alliance and the Horde and even ordered his agents to destroy Ironforge (a major Alliance city). So it is understandable why Katherine would trust Ashvane so much, it is not understandable why Rastakhan would keep Zul in his royal council after all the shit he pulled.

Rastakhan deserved to die, Katherine didn't. The story believed that Katherine could be excused for her mistakes and didn't deserve to die. The story believed that Rastakhan was inexcusable and deserved to lose his life as punishment for his mistakes. It's pretty simple.

And ultimately, Katherine, unlike Rastakhan, knew when it was time to abdicate. She knew that she was not to fit to rule. Meanwhile Rastakhan, in his pride, not only didn't abdicate in favour of his clearly better daughter, but also doomed his entire bloodline to serve a malicious death entity who is reviled and despised by all other Gods of their pantheon.

Zul wasn't known as psycopath, quite the contrary. He was THE prophet and his predictions ALWAYS came true, this is why Rastakhan and others held him in high regard. Zul made even Velen look like an amateur with very novel concept that "Just because you know the future doesn't mean you cannot work around it" and was able to play Mary Sue Proudmore around. We only learned in BfA that he was Blood Slug worshipper which was incredible waste because Zul was the only chance to at least try a different narrative, the Troll point of view which we had glimpse with Cataclysm trailer, that showed their struggles but never was treated seriously.

The amount of potential Zul had was incredible, we could've had a serious reflection on Vol'Jin and Zul point of view, we could get into serious politics and get update on overall situation on various regions in Azeroth.
But all that was handwaved and swept away because "Behold! There are even worse trolls out there! We must stop them and the blood Slug!"

And I disagree that Katherine was better than Rastakhan, and that she wasn't a true 'ruler' which is false- she was elected as High Admiral, which gave her full control over Kul'Tiras - she had literally no excuse. Rastakhan had, although I could say that they could've show it better in game.
What we knew was that :
- Zandalar was hit by Cataclysm so he had to first act on the damages it caused
- almost half of his advisors were working against him, where one of them was infailable prophet (so he was in quite a big disadvantage) and he still wasn't as oblivious becuase he created a special code system with his bodyguards
- After assasination he actually was working hard to make up for his mistakes and short-sight. He was dedicated and in the end he refused to surrender entire nation to invaders, he was willing to put his own life over wellbeing of his people. I cannot recall Katherine doing anything than comforting Mary Sue Proudmore. But then again might be just me not paying much of attention. I started skipping stuff becuase it was just frustrating experience.
- You might be super behind the memo, but that Death Entity is the only Death Entity that actually protects the souls from the Maw and other beings that would torment souls. Talanji was initially upset, but she saw that what Bownsamdi was doing was great. In the end this pact ensured safety of troll souls in the Shadowlands. Talanji isn't perfect leader either, she has troubles with her emotions, and she needed her father. In the book she was demanding Bwon to summon soul of her father so she could talk with him.

The point was that his disposal was Awful concept for many reasons, but the main one was from meta point of view- so something completely outside of the story reasoning. I was lashing out on developers, and developers alone for doing such a poor job with the story. And since you mentioned her, I would even argue that Ashvane could be very good character if she wasn't treated like shallow Disneyish villain.

I no longer care for Horde vs Alliance, and arguing with players over small superficial issues, When the bigger picture is that bunch of amateurs with no clear vision and no respect for consistency always go for "Rule of cool" and never consider the shortcomings. The story direction is never fault of the players, and I won't ever hold it against them. We may disagree on lots of things, but my focus will always be the ones who work on games.

I provided lots of examples and reasoning om how the story could be crafted to get the full potential out of it. And I find bigger joy in modeling and writing my own stuff.

[Varodoc]

Zul wasn't known as psycopath, quite the contrary. He was THE prophet and his predictions ALWAYS came true, this is why Rastakhan and others held him in high regard.

That's not really the impression I got from what Cho had to say about the situation. Rastakhan didn't care about Zul's prophecies and was actually looking for an excuse to send him away, because he was getting tired of his BS. He certainly didn't seem to hold him in high regard, since he was looking for a quick way to banish him from his court. He gave him a whole fleet precisely for that purpose; so that Zul could finally leave Zandalar and, possibly, never return.

Zul made even Velen look like an amateur with very novel concept that "Just because you know the future doesn't mean you cannot work around it"

But Zul isn't a "Mary Sue" like Proudmoore, right? Despite being a baby compared to Velen (who is 25000+ years old btw), he apparently outplayed him completely. But he's not a Mary Sue, right?

And I disagree that Katherine was better than Rastakhan, and that she wasn't a true 'ruler' which is false- she was elected as High Admiral, which gave her full control over Kul'Tiras - she had literally no excuse

I didn't say she wasn't the rightful ruler of all Kul Tiras. I also never denied she was unsuccessful. I'm simply telling you a fact, that she was [presumably] never expected to rule and never educated to rule. Under normal circumstances, she literally would have never been in that position. The stars literally had to align for her to become Lord Admiral: Daelin and Derek died, Tandred was presumed dead, and Jaina was disinherited and exiled. Furthermore, Kul Tiras, like the rest of the human kingdoms, is clearly based on your generic middle ages kingdom, and women in the middle ages were never expected to rule and were never given the same education as men. Katherine is more excusable for her incompetence because she would never have been expected to and taught how to rule.

There's also the fact that Katherine was pretty much a broken woman. Her husband was dead, her eldest son was dead, her youngest son was also believed to have died at sea, and her daughter betrayed Kul Tiras and was cursed by their people (they literally created an entire song cursing Jaina). She was a broken woman who had lost everyone she ever cared for, so I definitely feel more sympathetic towards her than towards Rastakhan, who still had a daughter to fight for.

Just like I can't really blame Katherine for trusting Ashvane so much. I'm pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere that Ashvane became a close friend of Katherine and they related with one another (Ashvane also lost her husband at Theramore). Ashvane was a dear friend for Katherine while she was mourning so it's understandable that Katherine would be in denial about Ashvane's corruption.

Meanwhile, I can and I will blame Rastakhan for keeping Zul in his council even after he started wars with the Alliance and the Horde, which tarnished Zandalar's reputation world-wide and eventually made Talanji a target for the Alliance (the Alliance wouldn't know that Zul was acting independently).

- almost half of his advisors were working against him, where one of them was infailable prophet (so he was in quite a big disadvantage) and he still wasn't as oblivious becuase he created a special code system with his bodyguards

Zul might have been an infallible prophet, but Rastakhan was bonded with the literal God of their pantheon, so he was not lacking in the "magical" field. If he was clever enough to develop a special code system with his bodyguards, why was he not clever enough to simply replace almost half of his council?

- After assasination he actually was working hard to make up for his mistakes and short-sight. He was dedicated and in the end he refused to surrender entire nation to invaders, he was willing to put his own life over wellbeing of his people. I cannot recall Katherine doing anything than comforting Mary Sue Proudmore. But then again might be just me not paying much of attention. I started skipping stuff becuase it was just frustrating experience.

Love how you keep calling Jaina a Mary Sue yet baby Zul, who outsmarted 25000 years older Velen, is somehow not a Mary Sue.

Anyway, Yes, Katherine put herself at risk for the well-being of her people when she was literally on the walls of Boralus when Ashvane was about to launch her final attack. She could have abandoned the city or retreated inside the palace, instead she decided to be on the walls with her people.

Also, I mean... Rastakhan is a literal superwarrior with Godly powers. While Katherine is a frail old woman with, presumably, 0 combat training. It's understandable that Katherine wouldn't put herself at risk like Rastakhan. She still risked a lot when she stood beside her people on the walls of Boralus though.

- You might be super behind the memo, but that Death Entity is the only Death Entity that actually protects the souls from the Maw and other beings that would torment souls. Talanji was initially upset, but she saw that what Bownsamdi was doing was great. In the end this pact ensured safety of troll souls in the Shadowlands. Talanji isn't perfect leader either, she has troubles with her emotions, and she needed her father. In the book she was demanding Bwon to summon soul of her father so she could talk with him.

I mean, he's still a dude who was raising skeletons and zombies left and right at the Battle of Dazar'alor, forgive me if he gave me a bad impression. People find it repulsive when the Lich King and Sylvanas do it, Bwonsamdi shouldn't get a pass just because he's funny.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Rastakhan was never a “Horde leader” to begin with. Certain posters can keep up with that nonsense in hopes that it becomes an accepted truth if they keep on about it.
It never will be.

[Cwimge]

Considering the horde are a confederation of monsters who'll blithely follow anyone who tells them what they want to hear? No. Good writing and good leaders would be a waste. You want to be the bad guys? Enjoy meaningless leadership that exists to get sieged and killed

[geco]

But Zul isn't a "Mary Sue" like Proudmoore, right? Despite being a baby compared to Velen (who is 25000+ years old btw), he apparently outplayed him completely. But he's not a Mary Sue, right?

Valen is useless but he has decent style so he hides it.
But he is not a good madida unit to be honest.

[Ramz]

That's not really the impression I got from what Cho had to say about the situation. Rastakhan didn't care about Zul's prophecies and was actually looking for an excuse to send him away, because he was getting tired of his BS. He certainly didn't seem to hold him in high regard, since he was looking for a quick way to banish him from his court. He gave him a whole fleet precisely for that purpose; so that Zul could finally leave Zandalar and, possibly, never return.

That is something I wish was better handled, the only way it makes sense was that he wanted to avoid civil war. Because Zul's visions always came true, and Rastakhan didn't want to abandon Zandalar. So in order to avoid it he gave free hand to those who wanted to leave. But as I said before. From meta point of view, it is just a waste opportiunity for far more complex story, a story that should be more about politics, needs, and demons from the past that needed to be confronted. But everything is very vague and leaves lots of people to have a wild guess and argue on forums on which's guess is more true.

But Zul isn't a "Mary Sue" like Proudmoore, right? Despite being a baby compared to Velen (who is 25000+ years old btw), he apparently outplayed him completely. But he's not a Mary Sue, right?

He didn't outsmart Velen, he never met him. We just saw how he was using his gift and compare it to how Velen was using it. And it's the players that immediately came to that conclusion. Of course skillful writer could make it work (i.e. that it's cultural difference, or that his prophecies are only concerning Legion activity, which would explain why he didn't see Teldrassil coming) and provide deeper reasoning on why Zul was behaving like that wheras Velen the other way. I'd be all for that. I really love all the small neuances which makes each subfaction it's own thing and makes them feel like real people.


But Velen once again fell into scrutiny and Zul was turned to Blood Slug worshipper and immediately disposed off - Together with Rastahan. where I actually WANTED to learn about how Zandalari see the world affairs from their point of view. How we ended in situation where we meet renowed leader who immediately sent his people to deal with Hakkar threat, not once but twice, where he was organising reguraly meetings with other tribes and NOT have opportiunity to learn about his experience, his views on matters and deal with uncomfortable subjects even. Rastakhan was slowly built up since Vanilla, it was already awful concept that we would never see Vol'Jin and Rastakhan interact as a Warchief and King, but it's extra shitty that Rastakhan was wasted like that where he could answer so many questions, and provide completely unique insight.

I didn't say she wasn't the rightful ruler of all Kul Tiras....

Ok that was fair point, but bottom line is - I don't really care that much about Katherine, I just used her as example of really messed up double standards. I'm not upset that she is dead or alive, I'm upset that Rastakhan was wasted.

Meanwhile, I can and I will blame Rastakhan for keeping Zul in his council even after he started wars with the Alliance and the Horde, which tarnished Zandalar's reputation world-wide and eventually made Talanji a target for the Alliance (the Alliance wouldn't know that Zul was acting independently).

Well I agree that this is a complex situation, that actually could bloom to some interesting drama. Their activity in Cataclysm is something that deserves a bigger attention. Though to be fair I didn't see it as something completely condemnable - in the end trolls are people, with resources and territories and just as Horde and Alliance can make certain claims and have certain rights, but I don't want to derail this topic. So let's say I partly agree with you in a meaning that this story thread should've been brought up and given proper attention.

Zul might have been an infallible prophet, but Rastakhan was bonded with the literal God of their pantheon, so he was not lacking in the "magical" field. If he was clever enough to develop a special code system with his bodyguards, why was he not clever enough to simply replace almost half of his council?

Because he didn't know they were traitors, he believed that they were working in country's best interest. Talanji also didn't suspect they were capable of treason she thought they were at worst "decrepit old tusks" whith dim vision and such, but she never suspected they would act ill on purpose. And I agree that there is huge inconsistency with "mind reading" -how much Gods can enter one's mind? (My favorite inconsistency was with Pa'ku. She was ablet o warn Rastakhan about Sethrak invasion coming from different direction where he was , but she couldn't warn him about Alliance invasion coming from different direction his troops were sent, the big mist was only covering Nazmir, not the seas in front of Zuldazar) but that is again something I pin on writers, not NPCs.

But If you'd ask me, I just don't really like how overall this council was constructed. Zul makes sense as a prophet(why wouldn't you want to have a guy who can perfectly predict future on your side?), but the other council members should be people in specific field of expertise, So there should be Arcanital/ Chronicler among them, Army commander, if Prelates are top of the top from both priests and warriors, High prelate should be among the council member, etc. Yazma on paper was a good pick as someone who is responsible for spy network and gethering of intelligence, but they made her merely a cartoon reference AND turn against her goddes, because "muh powa!". I don't really understand the role of Loti and Raal, he is Hexlord, ok - and it looks like they're training pterrodaxes so their air units, but other than that he needed some better explanation about his responsibilities, and why he is among council other than being Pa'ku High Priest (?) and same with Loti, ok she is leading druids, but what is their scope again? Are they using their shapeshifting abilities just for fighting? Or is it meant to tie with hunting? Is druidism used for beast breeding like we saw in Warbeast Kraal or is it a hunter's responsibility? It would be better if it was meade clear that they're tied to more economic fields.

As you see for this one example I have like thousand of questions already. And that should be important to know. It should be clear to illustrate how caste system in Zandalar works, how are council members elected - Talanji during her coronation kinda covered some of those things, but it still felt kinda flat.

Love how you keep calling Jaina a Mary Sue yet baby Zul, who outsmarted 25000 years older Velen, is somehow not a Mary Sue.

As I said, Zul and Velen never met, nor they competed between each other in any way, it's the players that deemed him smarter for using his gift in practical way. But in the end Zul turned out to be next saturday morning cartoon villain, so he is not a Sue, he is a whole different trope.
I wouldn't even say that Zul is super powerful and deffinietly that he can't do anything wrong narratively, because he didn't really display any specific feats of strenght other than being possessed by Old God, he was just extremely resourceful. Which I believe is a great trait and I prefer it much more to flashy powers.

I mean, he's still a dude who was raising skeletons and zombies left and right at the Battle of Dazar'alor, forgive me if he gave me a bad impression. People find it repulsive when the Lich King and Sylvanas do it, Bwonsamdi shouldn't get a pass just because he's funny.

There is a difference between Troll and regular necromancy. Trolls never really used it for creating armies (with few exceptions like Zalazane)

But to the point- Trolls usually used their necromancy to :

-communicate with those who already passed, like Vol'Jin communicating with his father Sen'Jin to get advise or

-enchinting their mummies to protect their tombs/ catacombs, as we saw Amani were doing and Frost trolls in Northrend. Trolls don't approve at all raising people back to life to artificially keep them on earth. This is why Zanzil became outcast. Because he crossed the line, even Gurubashi couldn't tolerate.

Bwonsamdi other than being reference to Baron Samedi, is responsible for taking care of those who already passed. He can summon those in his domain to provide aid. Usually it was just temporary situation. You should've noticed that he never summoned dead for attack, he summoned them for defence purposes. once their served their purpose they were gone leaving pleace for the living ones.

His domain is death and he can make use of said powers, but it's very occasional and never permanent, because he is there to maintain order of Life and Death, not to make Death take evertyhing over.