The Return of Talent Tress, Or: Unnecessary, Too Much Work, Missing Something 2.0

[Spritz Bergak]

I absolutely despise talent tress for the following reason:

1) You need to look up the randomly designed singular motherfucking path and progress along in order to be able to unlock the one ability you like.

2) It's cluttered as fuck: too many choices and you always feel like fuck I'm missing one of my most important abilities now!

3) It's a nightmare to balance! 38 specs and 13 class trees on top of it: Just how the absolute fuck does Blizzard expect to keep them balanced?

4) Players literally forced to always change talent points now. On a per pull basis. Imagine the time it takes to re-talent every single fucking button you have in raids.

5) Imagine the time and resources this clusterfuck takes away which could be spent on other areas of the game. Every time I open up WoWHead I'm bombarded with a FULL PAGE of class and spec talent changes now. Who the fuck even cares? Just give us the tools to play our class and spec and be done with it.

And the list goes on and on.

I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?

[Celement]

Nostalgia I think... honestly wow is at the point I think specs having one kit would work better then talents. In practice talents really come down to a question of how many enemies are you fighting. That is the highest level of impact they have currently.

[Utrrabbit]

I absolutely despise talent tress for the following reason:

1) You need to look up the randomly designed path and progress along in order to be able to unlock the one ability you like.

2) It's cluttered as fuck: too many choices and you always feel like fuck I'm missing one of my most important abilities now!

3) It's a nightmare to balance! 38 specs and 13 class trees on top of it: Just how the absolute fuck does Blizzard expect to keep them balanced?

4) Players literally forced to always change talent points now. On a per pull basis. Imagine the time it takes to re-talent every single fucking button you have in raids.

And the list goes on and on.

I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?

Tl;Dr I am not that smart.

[Rockefellah]

Because the illusion of choice gives flavour.

They realized talent trees is one of the things that pulled back people to Classic and TBC classic, and what made the Legion weapons popular.

Balance wise it doesnt matter if the cookie cutter build (the kit suggested above) is given, or if players click stuff to get there. For the latter thus illusion of choice experience does matter.

[Spritz Bergak]

Tl;Dr I am not that smart.

Why do you feel the need to profess that you are not that smart? I won't give you a Tl;DR, either read it in full, or just leave it.

[potis]

I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?

If done correctly (Paladin talents), there are actually a few decent builds for different situations, obviously what we have now works also, but its interesting to see its not a complete failure if there are many decent choices.

I still think its early to judge, people need to ignore the Class Talents a bit and focus on the Spec talents as to "choices", the class talents are mostly just leveling bullshit unlocks that we get passively now so of course they look terrible.

That, along with adding a few new things (Warriors finally getting a Shield Block for spells ability, Shadow Priests new things etc).

[Spritz Bergak]

If done correctly (Paladin talents), there are actually a few decent builds for different situations, obviously what we have now works also, but its interesting to see its not a complete failure if there are many decent choices.

I still think its early to judge, people need to ignore the Class Talents a bit and focus on the Spec talents as to "choices", the class talents are mostly just leveling bullshit unlocks that we get passively now so of course they look terrible.

That, along with adding a few new things (Warriors finally getting a Shield Block for spells ability, Shadow Priests new things etc).

Sure there are upsides, like differentiating builds, and new abilities, but what I'm mostly concerned about are the tiered talents which require multiple points in order for you to unlock the next ability in the tree. It just gives off a sense of making no difference.

[WowIsDead64]

Yeah, I agree, that major problem with current dev team - is that it has tried to make game mathematically perfect, while game doesn't have to be mathematically perfect to be fun. Talents - is one of things, I stopped caring about long time ago, because Blizzard ruined them for me. I'm not sure, if DF will revive them for me. Talents are mostly about number of buttons for me. Perfect amount - is 16, excluding extra buttons, such as covenant abilities. Some abilities are also class/spec-defining for me, so they're mandatory. Also some balance between ST and AOE abilities. I got used to having separate AOE rotation back in old days, so I don't like to fill gaps in ST rotation by AOE abilities. This leaves small room for playstyle defining choices, like compensating weaknesses of my class/spec.

[potis]

Sure there are upsides, like differentiating builds, and new abilities, but what I'm mostly concerned about are the tiered talents which require multiple points in order for you to unlock the next ability in the tree. It just gives off a sense of making no difference.

Its a mix of delusion of choice and build differation, you ARE gonna spend the points either way, but in terms of some balance, you cant possibly be allowed to spend them on the end talents also, therefor the tier.

Look at the Warrior Talents that just released, with your logic, ignore everything, get the big bad cooldowns and their buffs only, so Avatar+SPear+Shockwave+Dragon Roar + Spell Block, instead of "Damage of Shield Slam and Slam is increased by 25%".

It might look like they force you, but if you notice the tweaked talents from the first classes, they start making sense a bit, as example the DK class talents were a mess, after the first month tweak, they make some sense and dont really block each other.

Along with the fact that if given free choice you are gonna have some weirdo crying he gets kicked from groups, and then you notice he didnt pick, interrupt, dispel, reduction, and only went for DPS talents or similar things, and he wonders why he isnt invited.

[Spritz Bergak]

Yeah, I agree, that major problem with current dev team - is that it has tried to make game mathematically perfect, while game doesn't have to be mathematically perfect to be fun. Talents - is one of things, I stopped caring about long time ago, because Blizzard ruined them for me. I'm not sure, if DF will revive them for me. Talents are mostly about number of buttons for me. Perfect amount - is 16, excluding extra buttons, such as covenant abilities. Some abilities are also class/spec-defining for me, so they're mandatory. Also some balance between ST and AOE abilities. I got used to having separate AOE rotation back in old days, so I don't like to fill gaps in ST rotation by AOE abilities. This leaves small room for playstyle defining choices, like compensating weaknesses of my class/spec.

I agree wholeheartedly!

The fun lies not in numbers, but meaningful abilities, it makes 0 sense to turn baseline abilities into talents just for the sake of it.

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Its a mix of delusion of choice and build differation, you ARE gonna spend the points either way, but in terms of some balance, you cant possibly be allowed to spend them on the end talents also, therefor the tier.

Look at the Warrior Talents that just released, with your logic, ignore everything, get the big bad cooldowns and their buffs only, so Avatar+SPear+Shockwave+Dragon Roar + Spell Block, instead of "Damage of Shield Slam and Slam is increased by 25%".

It might look like they force you, but if you notice the tweaked talents from the first classes, they start making sense a bit, as example the DK class talents were a mess, after the first month tweak, they make some sense and dont really block each other.

Along with the fact that if given free choice you are gonna have some weirdo crying he gets kicked from groups, and then you notice he didnt pick, interrupt, dispel, reduction, and only went for DPS talents or similar things, and he wonders why he isnt invited.

That's another downside: If that "weirdo" - or "newbie" as he is called otherwise - gets along just fine while leveling with DPS talents only and abandoning CC altogether, but in raids, where he is expected to fulfill a certain role, now he is suddenly FORCED to change his talents without him even realizing what the problem is in the first place.

So his first raid experience will be a negative one because he gets kicked without any explanation whatsoever.

[Nymrohd]

If done correctly (Paladin talents), there are actually a few decent builds for different situations, obviously what we have now works also, but its interesting to see its not a complete failure if there are many decent choices.

I still think its early to judge, people need to ignore the Class Talents a bit and focus on the Spec talents as to "choices", the class talents are mostly just leveling bullshit unlocks that we get passively now so of course they look terrible.

That, along with adding a few new things (Warriors finally getting a Shield Block for spells ability, Shadow Priests new things etc).

Yeah looking at prot paladin I can see I will have so many different builds and I like that aspect. However I do hope there is a real ease in switching between builds and that goes beyond the talent system to the UI. I haven't seen the news sites really cover the UI changes and whether switching build can also automatically switch between different button placements instantly. I hope we won't need multiple addons and hours of work every patch to build our builts into the UI and into the addons.

[bloodmoth13]

New trees are okay, you basically spec into one of three builds where you pick either left, right or sides only, it shouldnt be too hard to balance so long as the best stuff is kept as capstone talents.

What does bother me is the stupid design of having utility in the spec tree and damage in the class tree. outside of capstone talents the class tree should be pure utility and the spec tree pure throughput. This is very evident in the shadow priest tree where your CC and raid utility are on the spec side which means you will never have them, and the class tree has one single line designed purely for damage which severely limits the options. you will always pick the damage talents in the class tree hands down and you will never pick the utility talents in the spec tree. THAT is stupid design, choosing between performance and utility is NEVER a choice and no amount of nuance will 'fix' that.

Rogue trees have similar problems where branches are useless because they are utility and dont improve performance.

This system isnt far off from my idea of a perfect system they just need to fix a few things here and there and it will be golden.
Make class tree pure utility, make spec pure performance.

The new trees function nothing like the old vanilla ones, they only look similar. the new trees have separate trunks and clusters that are effectively exclusive with others. One thing that it does do very well is having complimentary talents to alter the playstyle of abilities granted by talents to balance them better, and the choice nodes give good exclusive options, like the frost mage talent lonely winter vs water elemental, pick one or the other.

I like the new system, it still needs some work and they need to stick to the philosophy of separating utility and throughput.

[Coldkil]

I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?

"i don't like that so they should be removed, plus it's too hard to actually understand them"

Just wait for IcyVeins to do the job for you, functionally it doesn't change anything between these, the MoP or the Vanilla talents.

[Echo of Soul]

4) Players literally forced to always change talent points now. On a per pull basis. Imagine the time it takes to re-talent every single fucking button you have in raids.

So then don't, since you're not actually "literally forced". Find a build that works well for most situations and one or two others for extreme outliers where your standard build won't work.

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3) It's a nightmare to balance! 38 specs and 13 class trees on top of it: Just how the absolute fuck does Blizzard expect to keep them balanced?

The fun lies not in numbers, but meaningful abilities, it makes 0 sense to turn baseline abilities into talents just for the sake of it.

Uhmm...ok.

[Spritz Bergak]

"i don't like that so they should be removed, plus it's too hard to actually understand them"

Just wait for IcyVeins to do the job for you, functionally it doesn't change anything between these, the MoP or the Vanilla talents.

you don't understand: The problem is an unnecessary amount of filler talents which yet again won't be used, instead of a few providing meaningful choices.

The talent system altogether is redundant. Sure IcyVeins does a great job for people who don't want to invest time into this bullshit, but it's just doesn't have a reason to exist in the first place.

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So then don't, since you're not actually "literally forced". Find a build that works well for most situations and one or two others for extreme outliers where your standard build won't work.

I can very well see that you never stepped foot into Mythic+, but believe me when I say you have to switch talents not to get kicked on the highest difficulties.

[Echo of Soul]

I can very well see that you never stepped foot into Mythic+, but believe me when I say you have to switch talents not to get kicked on the highest difficulties.

Well then that's a problem with the content and the difficulty, not actually with the talent system. If you constantly have to swap talents in and out you've failed in designing the game.

[potis]

Yeah looking at prot paladin I can see I will have so many different builds and I like that aspect. However I do hope there is a real ease in switching between builds and that goes beyond the talent system to the UI. I haven't seen the news sites really cover the UI changes and whether switching build can also automatically switch between different button placements instantly. I hope we won't need multiple addons and hours of work every patch to build our builts into the UI and into the addons.

Supposedly there are templates where you click and instant switch, supposedly, but i havent seen anything and they are capped to 10? Or something like that, we see.

[Spritz Bergak]

Well then that's a problem with the content and the difficulty, not actually with the talent system. If you constantly have to swap talents in and out you've failed in designing the game.

There is a solution for your problem which you actively practice right now: Don't do Mytic+.

Mythic plus is by definition designed to be the strongest challenge and you have to be on the edge of your seat every time, it's the very philosophy behind it.

But leave your wisdom to those who actually know what they are talking about when they mention having to switch talents instead.

[Mendzia]

'New' (lets be honest... it is not new) talent trees is the only good thing so far that this xpack brings.

[Coldkil]

you don't understand: The problem is an unnecessary amount of filler talents which yet again won't be used, instead of a few providing meaningful choices.

The talent system altogether is redundant. Sure IcyVeins does a great job for people who don't want to invest time into this bullshit, but it's just doesn't have a reason to exist in the first place.

I have the exact opposite feedback - i find them much more compelling because i have a lot of possible choices available and i can see already niches for my builds. As a rogue, i don't have many filler points or irrelevant ones. Yesm there are some, but most of them are actually interesting. For example there's a lot of synergy in the Outlaw tree and you can basically do an Ambush-based Dance Outlaw build which seems to be pretty powerful in single target but sacrifices quite a bunch of AoE/Cleave.

Given also you can same as many builds as you want and swap them on the fly, i see it much better than "here's three talents, but two of them are just inferior".