FFXIV Criticisms

[Wrecktangle]

Wasn't the latest raid almost entirely just circles?

Wasn't the Jailer's platform a hexagon? And Anduin's an octagon?

Vault of Incarnates doesn't have great examples so I'm in agreement there. Really the only one that I find mildly interesting is Kurog's in that where you tank him he has different mechanics, and figuring out the order that works best for your raid team was an interesting piece. It's an good way to make a circle room more interesting.

That said, looking back you have examples like chasing Sylvanas across a chain hovering over the maw, you have Jaina on a boat, who then freezes the entire ocean and lures you in. You have stuff like Blackhand who broke the floor to the forge and took you in deep where you KNEW it was going down. The same raid with Trains (despite being fairly similar mechanically to savage birds) felt thematically much better. You also had Hanz and Franz with the ceiling crushers. Sure it's a square room for the last 2 examples, but it's used more interestingly IMO.

This is probably one of the things I enjoy about FFXIV the most. People seem to like helping others out and being positive. Let's face it, WoW is toxic and has been since barrens chat went up on launch day. When people started struggling, it became all too easy to bail or kick someone rather than help them. This created a feedback loop for WoW. I still enjoy WoW, but FFXIV is a much nicer place to be from the perspective of dealing with random players.

That's strange though, because FF14 is VERY big on bailing or kicking someone rather than trying to help them. In fact, it's super common if you do any challenging end game content, because you can't hold them accountable for their performance for fear of the ToS.

Now, that's not to say that WoW is good, FF14 bad. I think they both suffer from the same issues, in that the content you do in either game may have conflicting personalities that cause friction. I.e. When I, an accomplished skilled player am group with lazy people in trivial content I get annoyed. The flip side of this is that I'll teach anyone pretty much anything IF they express a desire to learn or try.

I find people in WoW much more likely to hold themselves accountable and thus my experience tends to be better, but I also find other players in FF14 to be less selfish (for better or worse). It's a mixed bag and it's why your player personality and desired content type matters more than the statement "WoW bad toxic, FF14 good".

[Arlette]

Feel like people drastically overexaggerate how WoW doesn't apparently just use big circles or squares just to attack 14.

Also FF14 has multiple fights where the floor breaks and you go deeper into an area. Or you get transported somewhere else. Also I will point out that even in those examples in WoW, your next arena is also still just a circle and square.

Here's another one:

You also had Hanz and Franz with the ceiling crushers. Sure it's a square room for the last 2 examples, but it's used more interestingly IMO.

What is the difference between a square arena with a grid where things fall down from the ceiling vs a square arena with a grid where things explode up from the ground?

Hanz and Franz especially is a funny example to use because the optimal strats are to try to figure out how to ignore the actual unique mechanics of the room and stand on the little alleys in between the moving lanes to negate the whole point of it.

FF14 has a boss fight where trains show up and you need to dodge different lanes and adds pop out of them. FF14 has fights where you're knocked across the battlefield multiple times in sequence and you need to keep repositioning yourself as to not get knocked into hazard zones. I donno, you can play this game too and talk about how FF14 has really intricate boss fights where you're having mechanics mirrored and siphoned into other parts of the level that you need to memorize on the fly and react to and then inverse your own thinking on the subject when the boss changes it up (The final Eden fight is a great example or multiple Pandaemonium fights at this point)

It's a bizarre criticism. It's something that seems pushed to try and make a point but ultimately isn't really making one. You can like the aesthetic of how it's done in one game over another (Which is why it's so nebulous to argue about what "Feels thematically much better") but can we stop pretending both games don't use almost an identical formula and tweak the specifics in that formula for different bosses?

Jaina is the standout example I can really only point to. One boss fight in nearly 20 years of content. Sylvanas I guess is "interesting" when you're running across chains but...didn't most people kind of hate that as a final boss fight? A ton of adds until you get to the actual interesting part of the fight...which are just square platforms that you jump between.

There are absolutely other metrics to give praise to WoW over FF14, but this whole 'The dungeons and raids are more boring in FF14" feels so artificial and just untrue.

it's super common if you do any challenging end game content, because you can't hold them accountable for their performance for fear of the ToS.

God I hate this argument because it's just so untrue. You aren't doing the hardest content in FF14 with random people you've plucked off the street. Almost ever. It's almost exclusively people you've been playing with. People in your FC, people in your own little FF14 discord, people you've been doing hardcore content with for however long. You're not grabbing random ass people and doing DSR who are just auto-attacking the boss or something. This example keeps getting brought up and it's just so detached from reality that it drives me crazy people keep trying to genuinely present it.

You play badly in a private DSR group and you're being replaced. And the SE isn't punishing people for it lol. The whole TOS thing has always been about just not being dickheads to randoms you're encountering in the duty finder. It's always been just that. And it keeps being deliberately lied about by people.

[Yarathir]

I will concede to Jaina. I, personally, hated Sylvanas, though. Almost everything about it. The chains stuff wouldn't even be memorable if not for how it dragged stuff out, and then the final phase platform jumping, whew.

[Ghost of Cow]

You play badly in a private DSR group and you're being replaced. And the SE isn't punishing people for it lol. The whole TOS thing has always been about just not being dickheads to randoms you're encountering in the duty finder. It's always been just that. And it keeps being deliberately lied about by people.

Nothing about that is a lie, you literally can't do anything in a typical group if someone is just being completely dead weight or not letting your group clear the content in some way. All you can really do is, "Gosh guys, I forgot my cat was scheduled to be on fire at 2pm today, gotta run." without risking some action from SE.

You can't even simply say, "Try using some Fire spells, black mage!" or something. That's not a lie at all.

[Yarathir]

Nothing about that is a lie, you literally can't do anything in a typical group if someone is just being completely dead weight or not letting your group clear the content in some way. All you can really do is, "Gosh guys, I forgot my cat was scheduled to be on fire at 2pm today, gotta run." without risking some action from SE.

You can't even simply say, "Try using some Fire spells, black mage!" or something. That's not a lie at all.

Lmao, non-automated groups are literally controlled by players themselves. If that Black Mage doesn't use fire spells in a prog run for some new difficult content, then guess what? It's your leader who is doing a bad job by not warning or kicking him.

[NineSpine]

Nothing about that is a lie, you literally can't do anything in a typical group if someone is just being completely dead weight or not letting your group clear the content in some way. All you can really do is, "Gosh guys, I forgot my cat was scheduled to be on fire at 2pm today, gotta run." without risking some action from SE.

You can't even simply say, "Try using some Fire spells, black mage!" or something. That's not a lie at all.

I've made comments to people dozens of times, maybe over a hundred, and never have I gotten in trouble.

[zealo]

The only people insinuating you can get banned for giving advice to people are those that just can't help themselves but bundle insults alongside it.

Also, if there's an Ice Mage in your DSR group, the problem started well before you even entered the duty with insufficient vetting of participants.

[Arlette]

You can't even simply say, "Try using some Fire spells, black mage!" or something. That's not a lie at all.

If you are doing the hardest end-game content, which reminder this is what you were commenting on, then you absolutely can say that lol. You can kick people for parsing badly if you want. It's a private group.

You aren't playing with a bunch of random people in the duty finder.

Stop lying. You know what you're doing here trying to pretend otherwise. And we all do too.

I mean FFS even in random groups you can give people advice as long as you're not a dick. I've done it plenty of times when getting lowbie dungeons in my roulette and noticing somebody doesn't have their job stone yet, for example, or aren't using half of their spells for jobs I'm intimately familiar with.

Literally you just can't be an asshole about it. That's all there ever has been.

And people like you keep trying to pretend its some big issue when it's not. The reality is that you just can't be a douchebag to random people and some of you just can't handle that because you're used to it in WoW.

It's such a low bar of just basic courtesy that it is hilarious that some of you still can't handle it and have to throw a fit about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, if there's an Ice Mage in your DSR group, the problem started well before you even entered the duty with insufficient vetting of participants.

I know right? It's such a laughable premise on its face. I'm not omniscient but for this example I am confident in saying that this has never happened in a DSR or UCOB or any kind of group like that ever. Not even once. In the history of the game.

It's a claim so utterly detached from reality that nobody should ever take it seriously.

[TheRevenantHero]

Vault of Incarnates doesn't have great examples so I'm in agreement there. Really the only one that I find mildly interesting is Kurog's in that where you tank him he has different mechanics, and figuring out the order that works best for your raid team was an interesting piece. It's an good way to make a circle room more interesting.

That said, looking back you have examples like chasing Sylvanas across a chain hovering over the maw, you have Jaina on a boat, who then freezes the entire ocean and lures you in. You have stuff like Blackhand who broke the floor to the forge and took you in deep where you KNEW it was going down. The same raid with Trains (despite being fairly similar mechanically to savage birds) felt thematically much better. You also had Hanz and Franz with the ceiling crushers. Sure it's a square room for the last 2 examples, but it's used more interestingly IMO.



That's strange though, because FF14 is VERY big on bailing or kicking someone rather than trying to help them. In fact, it's super common if you do any challenging end game content, because you can't hold them accountable for their performance for fear of the ToS.

Now, that's not to say that WoW is good, FF14 bad. I think they both suffer from the same issues, in that the content you do in either game may have conflicting personalities that cause friction. I.e. When I, an accomplished skilled player am group with lazy people in trivial content I get annoyed. The flip side of this is that I'll teach anyone pretty much anything IF they express a desire to learn or try.

I find people in WoW much more likely to hold themselves accountable and thus my experience tends to be better, but I also find other players in FF14 to be less selfish (for better or worse). It's a mixed bag and it's why your player personality and desired content type matters more than the statement "WoW bad toxic, FF14 good".

Uh what? You literally have things turned around. FF14 is NOT big on bailing or kicking people. That's what WoW is like, not FFXIV. And I think it's hilarious that you say people in WoW hold themselves accountable for anything. Because that's not even remotely true. Every raid group I've ever been in had people blaming someone else for their fuck ups. You also are totally allowed to comment on how people are playing. You just can't be a dick about it.

[Wrecktangle]

Also FF14 has multiple fights where the floor breaks and you go deeper into an area. Or you get transported somewhere else. Also I will point out that even in those examples in WoW, your next arena is also still just a circle and square.

It's not just about the floor breaking though, it's more about the use of the physical space and the theme. It's why I said Kurog was one of the few only good ones in the current WoW raid and cited my reasoning. FF14 ABSOLUTELY has had some actual bangers in this methodology. You have Doomtrain, Shinryu, Twintania, (theme, mechanically the room is super meh) etc. There's probably more for sure and I'd love to hear examples to refresh my brain. I find that FF14 does interesting mechanics better/more frequently than it does interesting usage of space. I'd argue WoW does the opposite of this.

What is the difference between a square arena with a grid where things fall down from the ceiling vs a square arena with a grid where things explode up from the ground?

Hanz and Franz especially is a funny example to use because the optimal strats are to try to figure out how to ignore the actual unique mechanics of the room and stand on the little alleys in between the moving lanes to negate the whole point of it.

Fair rebuttal, but I don't think it detracts from my overall point. They should have just patched that TBH lol. Regarding your example of things fall down from ceiling vs. things explode up from the ground, did you have a specific example in mind?

FF14 has a boss fight where trains show up and you need to dodge different lanes and adds pop out of them. FF14 has fights where you're knocked across the battlefield multiple times in sequence and you need to keep repositioning yourself as to not get knocked into hazard zones. I donno, you can play this game too and talk about how FF14 has really intricate boss fights where you're having mechanics mirrored and siphoned into other parts of the level that you need to memorize on the fly and react to and then inverse your own thinking on the subject when the boss changes it up (The final Eden fight is a great example or multiple Pandaemonium fights at this point)

Doomtrain is one of the GREAT examples I cited above in FF14. Simply getting knocked around the room isn't interesting use of space, especially considering how the solution is scripted and not dynamic.

It's a bizarre criticism. It's something that seems pushed to try and make a point but ultimately isn't really making one. You can like the aesthetic of how it's done in one game over another (Which is why it's so nebulous to argue about what "Feels thematically much better") but can we stop pretending both games don't use almost an identical formula and tweak the specifics in that formula for different bosses?

I don't think it's bizarre at all, nor do I think it's forced. I genuinely believe based on my experience as a top raider in both games that WoW uses space much more interestingly on average both thematically and mechanically. That's not to say FF14 doesn't have standout examples, it absolutely does.

There are absolutely other metrics to give praise to WoW over FF14, but this whole 'The dungeons and raids are more boring in FF14" feels so artificial and just untrue.

Speaking personally, that wasn't MY take on the subject, as I'm 100% on record as loving FF14 raiding, specifically the unique mechanics it sometimes creates, but I do feel their usage of space leaves a lot to be desired.

God I hate this argument because it's just so untrue. You aren't doing the hardest content in FF14 with random people you've plucked off the street. Almost ever. It's almost exclusively people you've been playing with. People in your FC, people in your own little FF14 discord, people you've been doing hardcore content with for however long. You're not grabbing random ass people and doing DSR who are just auto-attacking the boss or something. This example keeps getting brought up and it's just so detached from reality that it drives me crazy people keep trying to genuinely present it.

I mean I pug savage nearly every tier... Sure it's not Ultimate, but for the sake of the discussion it's absolutely relevant. I do find people all the time who are not holding themselves accountable. People who join clear parties to try and get carried because they saw enrage 1 single time with the boss at 31%. People who are doing less DPS than tanks (single digit % performance, no deaths) who try to blame someone else for hitting enrage. You have people who will join and literally scream and yell and curse if they don't get the SE position or OT role because they never bothered to learn other positions or responsibilities.

I join a M+ key, everyone knows their responsibilities and everyone knows each others damage and weak links will either leave themselves, or they'll get called out if they're especially bad. Now let me be abundantly clear. I DO NOT SUPPORT HARASSMENT OR NEGATIVITY IN ANY FASHION. I am fully open to the idea that WoW should enforce its ToS significantly more heavy handedly then it does like FF14. I still fully support complete open information including DPS in both games.

I've made comments to people dozens of times, maybe over a hundred, and never have I gotten in trouble.

I too have never gotten in trouble from a GM, but I've absolutely gotten crap from players. I'm sure they've reported me, but you can't be mad at me for saying the truth as politely as possible, no matter how much you don't like it.

Uh what? You literally have things turned around. FF14 is NOT big on bailing or kicking people. That's what WoW is like, not FFXIV. And I think it's hilarious that you say people in WoW hold themselves accountable for anything. Because that's not even remotely true. Every raid group I've ever been in had people blaming someone else for their fuck ups. You also are totally allowed to comment on how people are playing. You just can't be a dick about it.

That's the super funny thing about this debacle. Your experience is different than mine, but neither is invalid or wrong. I literally don't have toxic people or annoying people in my WoW pugs. Sure they exist, but in the content I do everyone shares a common goal and we push big on it.

In FF14 I gave examples above of the nonsense I've had to deal with, but even then these aren't my main complaints or bad experiences. It's the lazy (not bad, lazy, very important distinction) players in matched content. The problem is I don't do matched content in WoW, pretty much ever so I don't run into the same issues that a lot of people here do, but I know they certainly exist.

[Arlette]

Doomtrain is one of the GREAT examples I cited above in FF14. Simply getting knocked around the room isn't interesting use of space, especially considering how the solution is scripted and not dynamic.

See this is exactly why I didn't specify which fight I was talking about. Because I wasn't even talking about Doomtrain, but thanks for bringing it up. I was talking about the Nier boss with the train tracks you need to avoid that have adds pop out.

Also what is even the point of this discussion when people bring up other mechanics they like and the response is, "Well X isn't an interesting use of space."

It's not? Having multiple fights where you have to memorize patterns of knock back to not get insta-gibbed by the boss?

Why should we even continue the discussion then when things people find interesting just don't count. I never talked about how certain fights in WoW that you brought up and like are boring, the outlier being Sylvanas just because I distinctly remember the community reaction being negative, but was just pointing out fights with interesting or differing mechanics than normal. Even then personally I don't dislike the Sylvanas fight, but I know a lot of people do.

Also can we just cut the shit. This whole, "I experience no negativity in WoW while I do in FF14" is so obviously an untrue statement that you're making just to fuel the fight over which game is better. The discourse about toxicity in WoW is so ubiquitous that it's entered the broadest possible audience discussion of it for over a decade.

I literally don't have toxic people or annoying people in my WoW pugs.

I'm sorry, I just do not believe you.

It's especially egregious that you're presenting this lie by using Mythic plus of all things in WoW as somehow the pillar of positivity where you've never had problems with people lol.

My god. Shit like this:

I still fully support complete open information including DPS in both games.

Is just so detached from reality because every single person knows having damage meters and other metrics where you can judge people against your performance or others is probably the biggest toxic-inducing feature a MMO can have. It's why WoW is a gigantic toxic mess in group content.

I just can't take you seriously on this subject after these comments, so I'm done responding to ya.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's not just about the floor breaking though, it's more about the use of the physical space and the theme. It's why I said Kurog was one of the few only good ones in the current WoW raid and cited my reasoning. FF14 ABSOLUTELY has had some actual bangers in this methodology. You have Doomtrain, Shinryu, Twintania, (theme, mechanically the room is super meh) etc. There's probably more for sure and I'd love to hear examples to refresh my brain. I find that FF14 does interesting mechanics better/more frequently than it does interesting usage of space. I'd argue WoW does the opposite of this.



Fair rebuttal, but I don't think it detracts from my overall point. They should have just patched that TBH lol. Regarding your example of things fall down from ceiling vs. things explode up from the ground, did you have a specific example in mind?



Doomtrain is one of the GREAT examples I cited above in FF14. Simply getting knocked around the room isn't interesting use of space, especially considering how the solution is scripted and not dynamic.



I don't think it's bizarre at all, nor do I think it's forced. I genuinely believe based on my experience as a top raider in both games that WoW uses space much more interestingly on average both thematically and mechanically. That's not to say FF14 doesn't have standout examples, it absolutely does.



Speaking personally, that wasn't MY take on the subject, as I'm 100% on record as loving FF14 raiding, specifically the unique mechanics it sometimes creates, but I do feel their usage of space leaves a lot to be desired.



I mean I pug savage nearly every tier... Sure it's not Ultimate, but for the sake of the discussion it's absolutely relevant. I do find people all the time who are not holding themselves accountable. People who join clear parties to try and get carried because they saw enrage 1 single time with the boss at 31%. People who are doing less DPS than tanks (single digit % performance, no deaths) who try to blame someone else for hitting enrage. You have people who will join and literally scream and yell and curse if they don't get the SE position or OT role because they never bothered to learn other positions or responsibilities.

I join a M+ key, everyone knows their responsibilities and everyone knows each others damage and weak links will either leave themselves, or they'll get called out if they're especially bad. Now let me be abundantly clear. I DO NOT SUPPORT HARASSMENT OR NEGATIVITY IN ANY FASHION. I am fully open to the idea that WoW should enforce its ToS significantly more heavy handedly then it does like FF14. I still fully support complete open information including DPS in both games.



I too have never gotten in trouble from a GM, but I've absolutely gotten crap from players. I'm sure they've reported me, but you can't be mad at me for saying the truth as politely as possible, no matter how much you don't like it.



That's the super funny thing about this debacle. Your experience is different than mine, but neither is invalid or wrong. I literally don't have toxic people or annoying people in my WoW pugs. Sure they exist, but in the content I do everyone shares a common goal and we push big on it.

In FF14 I gave examples above of the nonsense I've had to deal with, but even then these aren't my main complaints or bad experiences. It's the lazy (not bad, lazy, very important distinction) players in matched content. The problem is I don't do matched content in WoW, pretty much ever so I don't run into the same issues that a lot of people here do, but I know they certainly exist.

When everyone but you is talking about how much nicer and helpful FFXIV's community is compared to WoW, the more likely scenario is that you are fabricating stuff to make it look bad. Considering the other things you've said about FFXIV being objectively wrong, I'm not willing to believe you have ever experienced much negativity in FFXIV outside of maybe a few outliers. Because overall, the community is incredibly helpful and positive in contrast to the utter cesspool that is WoW's community.

You've literally been trying to make excuses for why people should be allowed to harshly criticize others in game. That's such an exceptionally toxic thing to say and it's a fine example of the mindset of WoW's "community". If you weren't consistently posting blatant contradictions, I'd be more willing to hear you out. But it's clear you're just aiming to make FFXIV look bad despite the things you're saying being completely false.

[Wrecktangle]

See this is exactly why I didn't specify which fight I was talking about. Because I wasn't even talking about Doomtrain, but thanks for bringing it up. I was talking about the Nier boss with the train tracks you need to avoid that have adds pop out.

Ahh that's true. I only did the raid once, so I forgot about it.

Also what is even the point of this discussion when people bring up other mechanics they like and the response is, "Well X isn't an interesting use of space." It's not? Having multiple fights where you have to memorize patterns of knock back to not get insta-gibbed by the boss?

Using E3S Leviathan Savage as an example. Tsunami is an interesting mechanic, but it knocking you around and players around isn't actually an interesting use of the space, because you're heavily scripted on what you can actually do with it and very minimally interacts with the space. I hope that clarifies my point better.

Why should we even continue the discussion then when things people find interesting just don't count. I never talked about how certain fights in WoW that you brought up and like are boring, the outlier being Sylvanas just because I distinctly remember the community reaction being negative, but was just pointing out fights with interesting or differing mechanics than normal. Even then personally I don't dislike the Sylvanas fight, but I know a lot of people do.

To be fair, I think I'm the only one actually suggesting examples from both games, so I wouldn't say I'm being dismissive of the discussion, but rather dismissive of generic statements.

Also can we just cut the shit. This whole, "I experience no negativity in WoW while I do in FF14" is so obviously an untrue statement that you're making just to fuel the fight over which game is better. The discourse about toxicity in WoW is so ubiquitous that it's entered the broadest possible audience discussion of it for over a decade.

Firstly, It's not an untrue statement at all especially when you consider the scenarios I detailed to you. It's extremely likely that you (and some other posters here) simply have differing viewpoints on what we actually consider toxic. I've covered this countless times and probably even before in this thread. I don't find discussing performance or holding people accountable toxic. I simply don't. Do I think we should scream, curse, grief, or belittle someone? Absolutely not and you'll never find me saying that. I am not saying that it doesn't happen in WoW. I'm saying it doesn't happen to me. Just like in FF14, you and many others probably don't get anyone holding you (not you personally, royal you) accountable because they're afraid of the ToS being weaponized even in non-aggressive scenarios. No one gives me a hard time in FF14 either or really harasses me intentionally. So by your definition of toxicity we're in agreement FF14 has less here; but the scenarios I previously detailed don't really happen to me in WoW like they do in FF14 and they're frustrating to a player like me. That's how and why it's possible for us both to be right at the same time.

Secondly, I'm not fueling a fight over which game is better, because that's a silly take if you look at my post history. I play and like both games. I have a staggering list of complaints, criticisms, and likes of both games. I think both games do things better than the other. I like them both for different but similar reasons.

Is just so detached from reality because every single person knows having damage meters and other metrics where you can judge people against your performance or others is probably the biggest toxic-inducing feature a MMO can have. It's why WoW is a gigantic toxic mess in group content.

Okay, but you didn't actually consider my position. What if FF14 still banned people for being toxic, harassment, abuse, etc; but DPS parsers existed. Like every player, console, PC, etc. could see all their performance info. In this scenario, toxicity exists sure, but is rapidly weeded out of the community and what's left are people who use the tool well intentioned. How is this a bad thing?

When everyone but you is talking about how much nicer and helpful FFXIV's community is compared to WoW, the more likely scenario is that you are fabricating stuff to make it look bad. Considering the other things you've said about FFXIV being objectively wrong, I'm not willing to believe you have ever experienced much negativity in FFXIV outside of maybe a few outliers. Because overall, the community is incredibly helpful and positive in contrast to the utter cesspool that is WoW's community.

I don't fabricate anything. Name one example of something I said about FF14 being objectively wrong?

You've literally been trying to make excuses for why people should be allowed to harshly criticize others in game. That's such an exceptionally toxic thing to say and it's a fine example of the mindset of WoW's "community". If you weren't consistently posting blatant contradictions, I'd be more willing to hear you out. But it's clear you're just aiming to make FFXIV look bad despite the things you're saying being completely false.

Where in my post history have I once advocated for harshly criticizing anyone? You're being hyperbolic and I'm confident you can search my entire post history and not find me advocating to HARSHLY criticize anyone.

[TheRevenantHero]

Ahh that's true. I only did the raid once, so I forgot about it.



Using E3S Leviathan Savage as an example. Tsunami is an interesting mechanic, but it knocking you around and players around isn't actually an interesting use of the space, because you're heavily scripted on what you can actually do with it and very minimally interacts with the space. I hope that clarifies my point better.



To be fair, I think I'm the only one actually suggesting examples from both games, so I wouldn't say I'm being dismissive of the discussion, but rather dismissive of generic statements.



Firstly, It's not an untrue statement at all especially when you consider the scenarios I detailed to you. It's extremely likely that you (and some other posters here) simply have differing viewpoints on what we actually consider toxic. I've covered this countless times and probably even before in this thread. I don't find discussing performance or holding people accountable toxic. I simply don't. Do I think we should scream, curse, grief, or belittle someone? Absolutely not and you'll never find me saying that. I am not saying that it doesn't happen in WoW. I'm saying it doesn't happen to me. Just like in FF14, you and many others probably don't get anyone holding you (not you personally, royal you) accountable because they're afraid of the ToS being weaponized even in non-aggressive scenarios. No one gives me a hard time in FF14 either or really harasses me intentionally. So by your definition of toxicity we're in agreement FF14 has less here; but the scenarios I previously detailed don't really happen to me in WoW like they do in FF14 and they're frustrating to a player like me. That's how and why it's possible for us both to be right at the same time.

Secondly, I'm not fueling a fight over which game is better, because that's a silly take if you look at my post history. I play and like both games. I have a staggering list of complaints, criticisms, and likes of both games. I think both games do things better than the other. I like them both for different but similar reasons.



Okay, but you didn't actually consider my position. What if FF14 still banned people for being toxic, harassment, abuse, etc; but DPS parsers existed. Like every player, console, PC, etc. could see all their performance info. In this scenario, toxicity exists sure, but is rapidly weeded out of the community and what's left are people who use the tool well intentioned. How is this a bad thing?



I don't fabricate anything. Name one example of something I said about FF14 being objectively wrong?



Where in my post history have I once advocated for harshly criticizing anyone? You're being hyperbolic and I'm confident you can search my entire post history and not find me advocating to HARSHLY criticize anyone.

You claimed that nobody can criticize anyone else for fear of being banned. That's 100% false. You just aren't allowed to be a dick about it. And if you weren't advocating for people to be allowed to be as harsh as they want, why are you saying that people don't do any criticism because they're afraid of being banned? You don't need to say the exact words. Your other comments show you're upset you can't be as harsh as you want to people in groups in FFXIV like you can in WoW. Otherwise, you wouldn't make the utterly false statement that any criticism at all will get you banned.

Oh and the vast majority of the WoW population uses DPS parsers to shame players. You won't get in trouble for using them with FFXIV unless you start doing what people in WoW do with then.

[Yarathir]

I'm not going to jump into any of this at large, but you do have the right to curate your own groups however you see fit. Not others' groups, though. So if people are keeping "stragglers" around in prog content, then that's probably the party leader's fault.

[Ghost of Cow]

I love how often we have discussions on this forum where a handful of people declare that XIV is free of any kind of negative attitude or whatever, then proceed to be ridiculously aggressive and belligerent about it.

[Auxis]

I've made comments to people dozens of times, maybe over a hundred, and never have I gotten in trouble.

I concur. I see and engage in a lot of "Stance, tank.", <advise healer (usually a sprout or low lvl) that they have Esuna and what they can use it on>, etc. If it's advice or helpful comments, it should be fine.

[Ghost of Cow]

I concur. I see and engage in a lot of "Stance, tank.", <advise healer (usually a sprout or low lvl) that they have Esuna and what they can use it on>, etc. If it's advice or helpful comments, it should be fine.

The most toxic thing in the damn game is SE trolling me by turning my tank stance off every damn duty. >

[Yarathir]

I love how often we have discussions on this forum where a handful of people declare that XIV is free of any kind of negative attitude or whatever, then proceed to be ridiculously aggressive and belligerent about it.

I love how no one ever claims that XIV is free of any kind of negative attitude, yet here you are, insisting that someone claimed something so black and white.

[TheRevenantHero]

I love how often we have discussions on this forum where a handful of people declare that XIV is free of any kind of negative attitude or whatever, then proceed to be ridiculously aggressive and belligerent about it.

Nobody ever claims that FFXIV is completely free of negativity. We just say that it's nowhere near as prevalent as WoW.