How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[Scrysis]

Just to push back again against the idea that healers have more responsibility: if DPS interrupt the correct spells and use cooldowns correctly, healers have basically no responsibility in anything other than very high keys. Like DPS buttons by and large are far more important. It's kind of a meme in the other direction bc ppl don't understand how the game works.

And for tanking, I pressed w thru most dungeons in S3 and got to 3200 speccing and gearing 100% for damage and being frankly a mediocre tank. Lol think people talk themselves out of doing stuff but imagining it is harder than it is. I used to do the same with routes but it honestly does not matter that much and eventually you'll get over the anxiety and start getting annoyed when you out DPS meta players.

I really think the best thing people could do if they want to actually improve in all layers of the game is to try and really learn to DPS at a high level. It will force you to learn tons of subtle things about the game, including how unbelievably frustrating it is when timid tanks pull like two mobs when your cooldowns are up and could destroy a pack in 5 seconds.

Now play with some shitty players as a tank or dps. I'll wait.

You're not entirely wrong when you say that healers don't have more responsibility, but you're not quite there, either. The full picture is this: bad and toxic players make dumb mistakes that get themselves killed, and then place blame on the healer. Should that blame be on the healer? Absolutely not. But by virtue of of being responsible for keeping the group alive, the healer erroneously accepts blame in this case. And it increases stress and makes the activity an anxiety-fueled nightmare. Should they do this? Absolutely not. But until they read something telling them otherwise or see it for themselves, they'll keep thinking that it's their fault.

As a healer, the realization was eye-opening. Better players will do mechanics better, use defensives, and have higher dps. If you're a tank who knows only toxic dps players who do shitty dps, of course they're going to pull slow and be unsure. They don't want to wipe and get yelled at.

[Nymrohd]

As a healer, the realization was eye-opening. Better players will do mechanics better, use defensives, and have higher dps. If you're a tank who knows only toxic dps players who do shitty dps, of course they're going to pull slow and be unsure. They don't want to wipe and get yelled at.

Plus that tank has to deal with far more incoming damage since the mobs are up for much longer and the only CC is whatever stuns and interrupts they alone can do. But that experience is very much universal in multiplayer games. At least WoW doesn't have a crazy skill cap. In e.g. ESO the difference in a dungeon group between an optimized group and your run of the mill PuG can easily be as much as TEN TIMES higher damage output.

[RaoBurning]

I was a couple weeks late to Shadowlands. Warlock, not tank, but the same sort of sentiment applies. I remember trying to run my first dungeon—the Kyrian one I think, lots of stuff in the sky—and was lost a lot of the time. It seemed like there were already shortcuts and tricks widely known that I had no idea about, which isn't entirely unreasonable on the surface, so I spent most of the run playing catch up. Which sucked. And I couldn't pull an explanation out of anyone about anything. And that was just the leveling dungeon. I can't imagine jumping into any Mythic level without finding a guide first.

So I think a big obstacle for new tanks is not having a place to learn these things first hand. And the very nature of Mythic 5-mans doesn't really lend itself to much of a learning experience, I don't think, and I'm not sure regular ol' heroic helps teach how to handle all those fun mob affixes at all.

Tank/healer shortage in FF14 is a lot lower despite having even worse group compositions with 1T:1H:2D.

So maybe, just maybe it could have to do with design in some way?

Building on this for a moment, there are 2 differences between WoW and FF14 that make me much more likely to tank in FF14 (bonus reason: Gunbreakers are rad):

1) Dungeon design. There's some big wall pulling chances around, but there are frequently doors and blocks that force the party to rest every so often. Also no shortcuts, skips, glitches, or routing to have to remember, really. They're all pretty straight forward. I remember one, maybe two dungeons with optional side rooms containing a bonus chest but nobody is going to die if those are skipped.

2) Tank design. Playing a tank in FF14 is a lot like—as another poster said somewhere in the thread—being a melee dps who stands in front of the boss rather than behind. There's a real rotation! There's a set of role-specific mitigation cooldowns that all tanks have, and a couple job (class) specific ones, maybe some self-heals just for spice. And you do have to use them if you don't want your healer to blacklist you. Tank busters are real, and trash packs can be very dangerous without proper mitigation usage.

In a similar vein, it's much easier to try tanking in FF14. Want to learn a new job? Go to the guy who teaches the job and learn it. Do some low level open world content to get to dungeon queue level then try it out. There are even a few that start at higher levels for the more advanced/quick learning types. There's not so much this feeling of wasting a character and the time it took to level it if you're not into it.

Special mention goes to the FF14 random dungeon folks generally being very understanding about being new to a job/role. I've never had anyone complain or rage quit when someone says "hey I'm new." Folks are generally very helpful.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't they remove it because dpsers that didn't have tank/heal spec complaints is unfair? that's how i remember this

Probably, even though dps COULD get satchels during the rare peak times when there was a shortage of dps in the que (esp for lfr). But when you remove the carrot for tanking/healing things you have absolutely no need to do, we just stopped doing it... leading to tank/heals shortage, so.... dps can blame themselves for the shortage I guess.

[Echo of Soul]

Of course tanking is fun for who do tank. But since they are really few, maybe it’s not fun enough. And I can’t see this “lack of fun” like an entirely player la drive problem. In part it is, in part it’s not.

Tanking is very fun. But other players and certain game modes like m+ ruin the experience. Prior to Legion almost all my alts were tanks, now I never tank because I don't find being yelled at all that fun.

[Niwes]

I've been a long time WoW player until about 1.5 years ago. How does the new expansion, Dragonflight, solve the shortage of tanks and healers problems?

Also I know Mythic+ is a popular feature, but I absolutely hate it because it's so difficult to get tanks for a group. Is Mythic+ in DF the same as before? This also leads to the issue of tanks and healers shortage.

oh, finally some easy question!
answer: not at all.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Now play with some shitty players as a tank or dps. I'll wait.

You're not entirely wrong when you say that healers don't have more responsibility, but you're not quite there, either. The full picture is this: bad and toxic players make dumb mistakes that get themselves killed, and then place blame on the healer. Should that blame be on the healer? Absolutely not. But by virtue of of being responsible for keeping the group alive, the healer erroneously accepts blame in this case. And it increases stress and makes the activity an anxiety-fueled nightmare. Should they do this? Absolutely not. But until they read something telling them otherwise or see it for themselves, they'll keep thinking that it's their fault.

As a healer, the realization was eye-opening. Better players will do mechanics better, use defensives, and have higher dps. If you're a tank who knows only toxic dps players who do shitty dps, of course they're going to pull slow and be unsure. They don't want to wipe and get yelled at.

Sure, I've done both. But none of this is really the point?

Besides, one nice thing about being a healer or a tank, even pugging, is that people will usually be so desperate to take you that you can queue into stuff above your weight with better players.

- - - Updated - - -

2) Tank design. Playing a tank in FF14 is a lot like—as another poster said somewhere in the thread—being a melee dps who stands in front of the boss rather than behind. There's a real rotation! There's a set of role-specific mitigation cooldowns that all tanks have, and a couple job (class) specific ones, maybe some self-heals just for spice. And you do have to use them if you don't want your healer to blacklist you. Tank busters are real, and trash packs can be very dangerous without proper mitigation usage.

.

Question: how is this not true in wow? You can run hekili for most tank specs to do your dps rotation optimally, but you do need to use defensives for things and know about them ahead of time.

[Flame6]

yee that's not true, you are pure example of over exaggerating
I got 2.2 io this season and not doing optimal routes.

think clearly before posting next time

Not true, another exaggeration that adds nothing to the topic.

Perfect example of people who make tanks not want to lead the group. They cant simple disagree, but they have to end with snarky on top.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

He wasn't toxic, he said it'd be boring. Because it would be, for all the people who enjoy fast paced m+ gameplay.

Tone is pretty important when it comes to whether or not someone is being toxic. Saying "That sounds boring" has a completely different nuance than "Holy shit this sounds sleep-inducing as fuck. "

You can express dislike for something without being a complete ass about it, it is when you choose to be an ass that you're deciding to engage in toxic behavior.

On the note of the timer, I suggest actually reading my other post in which I also offered a revised suggestion which kept the timer.

Why assume that people would all of the sudden try to do it as slowly as possible just because the timer was removed? People still value their time even without the timer. What expansion have you played where people deliberately ran dungeons slower than necessary? The assumption makes no sense in anything outside of pushing extremely high keys, the ones where people are a lot less likely to pug. The topic is on the tank/healer shortage, which is most relevant when pugging. My solution is to remove the additional time pressure that is created by the presence of the timer, it isn't like people will suddenly stop caring about time just by removing the timer.

The only place your assumption makes any sense would be pushing the highest key possible, which is rather irrelevant because people aren't going to be pushing really high keys while pugging M+. The tank/healer shortage is most relevant in lower keys, where pugging happens more often.

Just cap the keys at a specific level, and keep the timer solely as a competitive number that has no bearing on the power-related rewards. They could just turn the time-related rewards it into achievements and titles, it would be closer to a mix between CM and the current M+.

It wouldn't be a massive rework, it would be a minor rework in that scenario. It would just shift the loot from being tied to the timer to being tied to player deaths. The timer stays, and people who aren't pushing keys can safely ignore it because failing the timer won't reduce their rewards.

[Rageonit]

Perfect example of people who make tanks not want to lead the group. They cant simple disagree, but they have to end with snarky on top.

Mmm yes, blame us for the shortage of tanks, when we are the ones doing the actual tanking. Who am I exactly discouraging? The other tank in my m+...?
(On another note, if me saying "it adds nothing to the topic" is somehow snarky and discourages you from leading a group, you simply might not be built to be a tank. It does require a bit thicker skin.)

[Biomega]

It wouldn't be a massive rework, it would be a minor rework in that scenario. It would just shift the loot from being tied to the timer to being tied to player deaths. The timer stays, and people who aren't pushing keys can safely ignore it because failing the timer won't reduce their rewards.

It would fundamentally change the way things work. Difficulty isn't JUST the timer. There's a huge difference between MDI and TGP, for example - you're effectively proposing that MDI is all we ever get from now on, forever, because fuck people who prefer TGP.

Timers exist IN CONJUNCTION with key level. M+ isn't a speedrun where you see how fast you can really go - it's a race against difficulty factors that you can't outlast because of the timer. It puts pressure on the group to actually perform, and prevents degenerate tactics such as waiting for Bloodlust ever pull etc. which would absolutely be the optimal way to play if we had scaling difficulty but no timer, as there comes a point where you wouldn't be able to survive pulls otherwise.

Capping difficulty massively guts the system. The whole reason we have scaling is so we can have something for everyone. Loot level is already capped at 14/15 so why would you want to cap difficulty, too? To make it so people who enjoy harder content can't have that anymore?

I'm all for hybrid systems at the LOW end. I'd be fine for example if timers didn't kick in until, say, M+11 and above. That kind of content won't be done by people interested in bleeding-edge optimization anyway, and so the whole "wait for Lust" scenario wouldn't really be a thing to begin with. And it'd give lower-end players less anxiety about completing their key. Also key depletion is kind of poop soup, I think they could scrap the whole key system and just make it a drop-down like D3 Greater Rifts.

But to just gut everything top to bottom by fixing difficulty and making timers speed-run leaderboards only? Fuck no.

[InsightTimer37]

yeah or a an AI tank which you have to keep alive somehow

This is a good idea. It would have to go through shitloads of testing to be successful, though. I do remember Proving Grounds tank npc being just ok. The big downside would be if there is a technical issue with the tank and needing to disband the group to fix it.

[Rageonit]

This is a good idea. It would have to go through shitloads of testing to be successful, though. I do remember Proving Grounds tank npc being just ok. The big downside would be if there is a technical issue with the tank and needing to disband the group to fix it.

It can work in a separate instance/scenario, but not in the acutal dungeon. In the dungeon, tanks have to do mechanics, and you can't expect AI to be smart enough to understand how to do mechanics in a way that benefits the group. It would have to be some kind of a gutted version of the dungeon with less mechanics to care about.

[Mysterymask]

It can work in a separate instance/scenario, but not in the acutal dungeon. In the dungeon, tanks have to do mechanics, and you can't expect AI to be smart enough to understand how to do mechanics in a way that benefits the group. It would have to be some kind of a gutted version of the dungeon with less mechanics to care about.

Or the other extreme and the AI tank is too good and it comes to a unfortunate DAY TERK ER JERBS situation where why the fuck would I tank when a robot can trivialize the process and I can just go Windwalker

[TS26]

there is a shortage because the community bashes healers/tanks on every single mistake they make.

Plus you just need to do so much more work in m+ for example as a tank. Why would I tank in pugs where I have to memorize 10 m+ routes and understand every single mob when I can just dps and interrupt the important casts?

[Squigglyo]

I dont tank because my main doesnt have a tank spec.

I dont want to spend time/effort grinding up gear/rating on a character that isnt my main if im pushing ratings for the season or progression raiding.

TLDR
If my main's class had a tank spec, I would tank.
Adding tank/healer specs to classes without them would increase the pool of tanks/healers.
Adding new classes with these has a much smaller impact, most people wont change mains.

[Lochton]

For tanks by far the easiest thing they can do is make tanks actually do competitive DPS (as in compete with DPSrs in the raid).

There isn't really a reason why tanks shouldnt be able to also do a ton of damage.

The whole play on tanking not doing as high DPS is the fact that they have such high survivability. I can't recall the expansion but I do know that giving tanks DPS numbers, you'll basically screw with a lot of balancing. There isn't a reason for tanks to do as high DPS as the DPS when they are meant to keep the DPS alive to do DPS.

[dragonflight10]

there is a shortage because the community bashes healers/tanks on every single mistake they make.

Plus you just need to do so much more work in m+ for example as a tank. Why would I tank in pugs where I have to memorize 10 m+ routes and understand every single mob when I can just dps and interrupt the important casts?

you are overexaggerating sooo much xD, i've seen tanks do up to +18 doing weird routes like literally just pulling what they are facing/ not knowing every single mob.
That route memorizing is for like +20 and above mate

- - - Updated - - -

Give warlocks a 4th spec that's tanking. They can get their old demon form back or use a uber felguard. Wouldn't be that much of a stretch to allow it, maybe have some cool questline that unlocks it.

sounds to me you just want the cool quest line then play the spec for 1-2 dungeons and figuring it doesn't meet your crazy fantasy then come complain here

[Nymrohd]

I think people being so absolute about tanks and healers always being abused in PuGs if there is any mistake is stupid.

It is by no means always. It's not even the majority of PuGs.

It is reasonably common at 15s. Again, not a majority but anyone who tanks primarily 15s will have bad encounters for sure. Do you need to memorize routes when you are clearing something in a group were most people don't even care about making the timer since they are just there for the Vault? No, not really. If the dps doesn't suck, even with a poor route you will still clear things reasonably fast. But this is where you find the most people and so this is where you find the most assholes.

Below that it is quite less common; you might encounter it from a moron or two but usually if it persists beyond a comment someone else in the group will promptly shut them up.

As for people doing above 15s, I think the standard there is reasonably higher. Let's be clear here, M+ at 18 and above is at a similar difficulty with Mythic raiding or ranked pvp. People are expected to know what they are doing and if you don't you shouldn't really be there. You also need a fairly different suite of skills; you need a much more involved UI (you really don't need addons or WAs to track everyone's cooldowns for a 15 but as you are approaching 20 you really should be trying to plan your pulls so you can create opportunities for dps to unload and wipe trash packs as needed). At the same time if people blame everything on the tank at higher difficulties, the others will look at their performance beyond simple damage and call them out as well.

So yeah, 15s are the social trash heap of M+.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I'm mostly surprised more people aren't commenting about the abuse directed at DPS. I've seen way more of that from people getting outdamged by the tank, which is astonishingly common in 15s and below