Darnassus is gone and it still has no "replacement"

[VladlTutushkin]

Ingame? Maybe.
But in canon lore - Forsaken was drawn back from Gilneas, coming to Ashenvale and further for Horde is death sentence, Shaw and Flynn was in Silvermoon freely in book.
Both Warfronts was lose for Horde, Arathi was taken from Forsaken forces.
And you claim is bad. And with that - Durotar is still invaded by Alliance, Barrens too, half of Hillsbrad is taken from Forsaken, Zandalar is in ruin with their king killed for nothing, fleet is destroyed, Vulpera civilians was killed bc some random bullshit reason. Should I continue?

Lorewise Forsaken still control Gilneas.
Horde still invades Ashenvale from the Barrens and from Stonetalon DESPITE supposedly being “changed”.
Also half of Hillsbrad belonged to Alliance from the beginning, Soutshore at the very least. The fact forsaken genocided it does not make it any less Alliance land.

Also Zandalari fleet destruction was equalises by Kul’Tiras fleet destruction almost immediately.

[OwenBurton]

Lorewise Forsaken still control Gilneas.
Horde still invades Ashenvale from the Barrens and from Stonetalon DESPITE supposedly being “changed”.
Also half of Hillsbrad belonged to Alliance from the beginning, Soutshore at the very least. The fact forsaken genocided it does not make it any less Alliance land.

Also Zandalari fleet destruction was equalises by Kul’Tiras fleet destruction almost immediately.

I wonder if Ashenvale's status has changed at all after Tyrande's return from the Shadowlands, and her "giving up" vengeance. Perhaps she has signed another Azshara to the Horde or something for "renewal and peace". Now that Lordaeron is Horde territory again, and Genn has likely reclaimed Gilneas, perhaps the Eastern Kingdoms also have been updated.

[Dancaris]

Lorewise Forsaken still control Gilneas.
Horde still invades Ashenvale from the Barrens and from Stonetalon DESPITE supposedly being “changed”.
Also half of Hillsbrad belonged to Alliance from the beginning, Soutshore at the very least. The fact forsaken genocided it does not make it any less Alliance land.

Also Zandalari fleet destruction was equalises by Kul’Tiras fleet destruction almost immediately.

Thats some strange logic.
>Forsaken still control Gilneas.
Nope, its unhabitant while fighting continues near a wall.
If we speak about lore and not ingame situation - Southshore was conquered by Horde. So unless they was reconquered - its Horde territory, no? Its semi-medival world, so that modern laws can not apply.
From book - coming to Ashenvale/Darkshore/Hyjal IS death sentence for any Horde, unless its for humiliation to Thrall. Or you telling me its not?
And Zandalary fleet was destroyed by Alliance SI7, while Alliance fleet - with Azshara. So it doesnt count as some strikeback, just bullshit drama.

[VladlTutushkin]

Thats some strange logic.
>Forsaken still control Gilneas.
Nope, its unhabitant while fighting continues near a wall.
If we speak about lore and not ingame situation - Southshore was conquered by Horde. So unless they was reconquered - its Horde territory, no? Its semi-medival world, so that modern laws can not apply.
From book - coming to Ashenvale/Darkshore/Hyjal IS death sentence for any Horde, unless its for humiliation to Thrall. Or you telling me its not?
And Zandalary fleet was destroyed by Alliance SI7, while Alliance fleet - with Azshara. So it doesnt count as some strikeback, just bullshit drama.

Forsaken still control Gilneas because Genn was hoping Calia could convince others in the Council to give it back.

And conquered or not it still Alliance land, it was so even in Medieval ages, sure you can take over the land but it does not mean previous owner loses their rights to it. Hell, trolls and forsaken always use that excuse. Also it was NEVER forsaken land, those shitsuckers can go fuck away as quick as their rotting limbs can carry their decrepit bodies.

And Exploring Kalimdor says that there is still fighting going on in Ashenvale with Horde attacking from Barrens and Stonetalon.

Darkshore is abandoned by both factions and basically is a "dead zone" so poisoned that even undead cant survive there for long.

Fleet was destroyed - thats what matters. How it was destroyed is almost irrelevant.

[Varodoc]

Lorewise Forsaken still control Gilneas.
Horde still invades Ashenvale from the Barrens and from Stonetalon DESPITE supposedly being “changed”.
Also half of Hillsbrad belonged to Alliance from the beginning, Soutshore at the very least. The fact forsaken genocided it does not make it any less Alliance land.

Also Zandalari fleet destruction was equalises by Kul’Tiras fleet destruction almost immediately.

I tend to agree with you but I need to correct you on two fronts.

Gilneas is no longer under the control of the Horde. The Desolate Council withdrew all its forces from Gilneas as a gesture of goodwill towards the Alliance (and as war reparations).

The Kul Tiras fleet is still a powerhouse, as it's mentioned that in 8.3 Lord Admiral Jaina had it scour the high seas to look for the fugitive Sylvanas.

[VladlTutushkin]

I tend to agree with you but I need to correct you on two fronts.

Gilneas is no longer under the control of the Horde. The Desolate Council withdrew all its forces from Gilneas as a gesture of goodwill towards the Alliance (and as war reparations).

The Kul Tiras fleet is still a powerhouse, as it's mentioned that in 8.3 Lord Admiral Jaina had it scour the high seas to look for the fugitive Sylvanas.

By the time of the Loraderon quest Genn was talking about it as if its still under Horde, as far as i recall.

[OwenBurton]

I tend to agree with you but I need to correct you on two fronts.

Gilneas is no longer under the control of the Horde. The Desolate Council withdrew all its forces from Gilneas as a gesture of goodwill towards the Alliance (and as war reparations).

The Kul Tiras fleet is still a powerhouse, as it's mentioned that in 8.3 Lord Admiral Jaina had it scour the high seas to look for the fugitive Sylvanas.

Well, that is speculative, I think. Calia said in her letter to Genn that:
"With the formation of the new Desolate Council, one of the first topics I intend to discuss is the withdrawal of Forsaken troops from Gilnean lands. This effort will take time, but I believe that we will come to an accord, and that both our kingdoms will see a brighter future."

Which means she intends to bring it up to the other 4 members of the Desolate Council, but it is nowhere certain that they are as sympathetic towards her views as she imagines, and Calia herself says it will "take time", which means Gilneas might still currently be under Horde control. Even if the Horde relinquishes their territorial claims, there is still the matter of the Blight to consider.

And most of the Kul Tiran fleet was indeed wiped out by Azshara, unless Jaina is able to materialize them again with her powers, I think the remnants of the fleet is a pale reflection of what once was.

[Feanoro]

The Desolate Council withdrew all its forces from Gilneas as a gesture of goodwill towards the Alliance (and as war reparations).

They actually wrote that? How the hell do they think giving back land is "reparations"?

[loras]

Alliance will take their half-hearted "we were just following orders" excuse and like it

This, the Horde haben es nicht gewusst!

[Caiphon]

Regarding Azshara, remember that the Alliance still has like three more zones under their control over the Horde (11 to 8 or something as of SL). Faction controlled zones = early leveling grounds, they had to balance it out. Azshara was in a way the least 'damaging' one as it had little Alliance presence to begin with and is directly adjacent to Orgrimmar.

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They actually wrote that? How the hell do they think giving back land is "reparations"?

Giving back land taken in previous wars to seal peace isn't unheard of. For example Prussia took Lorraine from France in the Franco-Prussian war, France took it back after WWI. Gilneas was taken years before the Fourth War so returning it as a form of goodwill isn't all that out of place.

[Feanoro]

Giving back land taken in previous wars to seal peace isn't unheard of. For example Prussia took Lorraine from France in the Franco-Prussian war, France took it back after WWI. Gilneas was taken years before the Fourth War so returning it as a form of goodwill isn't all that out of place.

Not out of place at all.

What I'm getting at though is they're simply given back the land, though. Destroyed, blighted, but hey, it's yours again since it's useless! Nothing like how the Alliance is rushing to rebuild Undercity for the undead while three of their races are refugees.

[Varodoc]

@VladlTutushkin @OwenBurton @Feanoro

In the final quest of the Alliance version of the Dark Ranger storyline, Calia Menethil, member of the Desolate Council, sends a letter to King Greymane:

King Greymane,

The ally you sent to aid us was most effective, and in return for your patience, I offer welcome news.

With the formation of the new Desolate Council, one of the first topics I propose is the withdrawal of Forsaken troops from the kingdom of Gilneas. In time I hope that we may come closer to agreement, and see both lands into a brighter future.

Warm Regards,

Calia Menethil
<The Pallid Lady>

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Letter_to_Greymane


I see no reason why Blizzard would mention this detail if they didn't want to go through with the idea.

Literally what's even the reason of having Calia mention this part if the writers are not actually interested in giving Gilneas back to the Alliance? To give false hopes to Worgen players?

And most of the Kul Tiran fleet was indeed wiped out by Azshara, unless Jaina is able to materialize them again with her powers, I think the remnants of the fleet is a pale reflection of what once was.

No. Only a fraction of the Kul Tiran fleet was sent to Nazjatar, the evidence is that half of the Alliance fleet sent to Nazjatar was comprised of Stormwind ships. Since clearly the Stormwind fleet couldn't match the Kul Tiras fleet in size (otherwise, it would make no sense for the Alliance to go to Kul Tiras in the first place if they already had a massive fleet), it is obvious that only a fraction of the Kul Tiras fleet was sent to Nazjatar.

If you want even further evidence, go count the number of ships shown when Tandred returns to the number of ships shown in the Nazjatar cinematic, you'll see that the bulk of the Kul Tiran fleet was kept in Kul Tiras.

The ultimate confirmation is that Jaina still mentions the Kul Tiran fleet in the following patch. Meaning that the fleet is still present as a fighting force:

Anduin Wrynn says: Sylvanas is out there somewhere. Until she's brought to justice, I don't think Tyrande or Genn will truly consider the war to be over.
Jaina Proudmoore says: The Kul Tiran fleet is scouring the seas, and Shaw has spies searching every dark corner of Azeroth. She can't hide for long.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The...eace?so=search

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Not out of place at all.

What I'm getting at though is they're simply given back the land, though. Destroyed, blighted, but hey, it's yours again since it's useless! Nothing like how the Alliance is rushing to rebuild Undercity for the undead while three of their races are refugees.

I hear you, but please remember that Azeroth is a supernatural world with druids who can cleanse entire plaguelands in a few months.

Objectively, there's nothing stopping the Alliance druids from combining their powers and, through the power of druid BS shenanigans, cleanse Gilneas from the blight.

We all know that Blizzard is Horde-biased, but let's analyse the situation objectively with the facts we know about the world and magical forces of Azeroth (such as the fact that druids can easily cleanse entire zones of plague).

Objectively, without taking any kind of bias into account, the Alliance druids can unite their forces to cleanse Gilneas and restore it to its original state, so that the Worgen can begin reconstruction efforts.

[Caiphon]

Not out of place at all.

What I'm getting at though is they're simply given back the land, though. Destroyed, blighted, but hey, it's yours again since it's useless! Nothing like how the Alliance is rushing to rebuild Undercity for the undead while three of their races are refugees.

Wait are they? The PC (either faction) is involved in de-blighting the Ruins of Lordaeron (Genn seems to have sent the Alliance PC in hopes of making a deal with Calia) but I wasn't aware that the Alliance was rebuilding the city as well. Would be pretty weird when Teldrassil is still a crisp.

Would be cool to have a counterpart to the Lordaeron story with Horde players being able to participate in rebuilding Gilneas tbh. Pretty nice scenery to enjoy there plus Genn interacting with the Horde PC would be interesting to say the least.

[Drudi]

Elves and their wrongdoings - meddling with dangerous sorcery and such - has been the ultimate reason for 90% of the wars and issues in this fantasy world. It’s only good they finally get *some* punishment, genocyde or not.

I mean they are literal equivalent of USA in the real world, who wouldn’t want them burned to ashes?

[geco]

In the final quest of the Alliance version of the Dark Ranger storyline, Calia Menethil, member of the Desolate Council, sends a letter to King Greymane:

Look at all the things they promised the Kaldorei in the last 2 expansions and none of them were delivered.
Why wouldn't this be another lie? Or another canceled idae?

Regarding Azshara, remember that the Alliance still has like three more zones under their control over the Horde (11 to 8 or something as of SL). Faction controlled zones = early leveling grounds, they had to balance it out. Azshara was in a way the least 'damaging' one as it had little Alliance presence to begin with and is directly adjacent to Orgrimmar.

Nobody said that the Horde cannot receive 3 neutral territories.
Or for im getting all of South Kalimndor.

This is not about "the other does not have" but about "recovering what is mine".

PS: Total In game is going to look the same because nothing is updated.

[Varodoc]

Look at all the things they promised the Kaldorei in the last 2 expansions and none of them were delivered.
Why wouldn't this be another lie? Or another canceled idae?



Nobody said that the Horde cannot receive 3 neutral territories.
Or for im getting all of South Kalimndor.

This is not about "the other does not have" but about "recovering what is mine".

PS: Total In game is going to look the same because nothing is updated.

Because it takes nothing for a multi-billionaire company to actually remove the blight from Gilneas.

With Teldrassil you can at least argue that they need to create a whole new world tree zone from scratch.

With Gilneas, they literally just need to remove the pockets of blight from the land, like they easily did with Tirisfal/Ruins of Lordaeron at the end of Shadowlands.

How hard can it be for their art team to do that realistically?

[Aresk]

And Zandalary fleet was destroyed by Alliance SI7, while Alliance fleet - with Azshara. So it doesnt count as some strikeback, just bullshit drama.

The Kul'tiran/Alliance ships were destroyed by Azshara due to a deal she made with the Warchief. She was a Horde asset in the attack, with Nathanos intentionally leading the Alliance into the trap. You can see that by 1) Nathanos delivering her the dagger, 2) Ashvane, one of Sylvanas' other allies, lending her support to Azshara, and 3) Azshara agreeing to kill the Horde champions for Sylvanas. Given that Sylvanas was Warchief and the one who arranged all of this, I don't know why that wouldn't count.

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Not out of place at all.

What I'm getting at though is they're simply given back the land, though. Destroyed, blighted, but hey, it's yours again since it's useless! Nothing like how the Alliance is rushing to rebuild Undercity for the undead while three of their races are refugees.

Only one Alliance spy was involved in the efforts for Undercity, at the behest of one nation leader. That hardly seems like the Alliance rushing to rebuild Undercity.

I hear you, but please remember that Azeroth is a supernatural world with druids who can cleanse entire plaguelands in a few months.

Objectively, there's nothing stopping the Alliance druids from combining their powers and, through the power of druid BS shenanigans, cleanse Gilneas from the blight.

We all know that Blizzard is Horde-biased, but let's analyse the situation objectively with the facts we know about the world and magical forces of Azeroth (such as the fact that druids can easily cleanse entire zones of plague).

Objectively, without taking any kind of bias into account, the Alliance druids can unite their forces to cleanse Gilneas and restore it to its original state, so that the Worgen can begin reconstruction efforts.

Additionally, we know that black dragon cultists were living in Gilneas without issue during the end of Cataclysm, so there is definitely livable areas in Gilneas within a year of the blighting. Things theoretically have only improved since then.

[Swnem]

You put this on the wrong forum.
The Lore sub-forum is gonna give you fantasy land answers. Try the general forums and there might be some ideas for content parity.

[Feanoro]

I hear you, but please remember that Azeroth is a supernatural world with druids who can cleanse entire plaguelands in a few months.

Since when? Not arguing, first I've heard of the druids being able to cleanse like that.

We all know that Blizzard is Horde-biased, but let's analyse the situation objectively with the facts we know about the world and magical forces of Azeroth (such as the fact that druids can easily cleanse entire zones of plague).

Objectively, Blizzard does not update zones unless either they put new content there or the zones are high traffic Horde areas.

Since the latter is unlikely (because if the Horde is in Gilneas, it will almost certainly stay a blighted shithole), the only chance for cleansing is Gilneas content. Until such is announced/leaked/etc, it's unlikely due to the battleground using those assets. Impossible, no. Improbable, yes.

There's nothing subjective in recognizing behavioral patterns by Blizzard.

[Thundering]

Wish people would see beyond the Alliance and the Horde as two entities. It's why we got into this mess in the first place. The Night Elves have currently lost more than any other race in the game. It doesn't matter how much the Alliance gets as a whole if the Nelves don't recuperate their losses it won't matter.

You mean how humans lost all their kingdoms and only 1 has been rebuilt? Maybe two if Stromgarde is used some day and becomes a proper city not just a military base.

When it comes to Gilneas, the day we see it as a small Alliance hub at least then its a victory. Like all it needs is some Cleaning of Undead warmachines some Gilneas npcs walking around a flight point and some vendors. Maybe some forsaken helping with the repairs to send messages of peace.
Like 8h of work for 1 person.