Would Blizzard ever institute support specs?

[Teriz]

Then you haven't ever met any WoW player in your life.

Oh brother.

That is nowhere the same thing. Role is one thing, specific buffs and debuffs is a completely different scenario. And again: specs would be losing their abilities, even iconic ones.

How is it not the same thing? You need a tank to run group content because they taunt monsters and soak enemy damage. You'd need a support to run group content because they bring the necessary buffs. There's literally no difference here.

So they are losing their abilities.

Specs lose "iconic" abilities all the time. Replace them with compelling abilities that match their specialization and they'll be fine.

Complexity for complexity's sake is not a good thing. On top of that, I really wonder if you actually play WoW at all. The whole thing about using support abilities is literally to break the whole 'single role' thing. It literally makes the roles more complex because you have more than one job. The DPS don't have to just mindlessly deal damage. They have to pay attention to the interrupt rotation, they have to be attentive to crowd-control an add that spawned. Etc.

Again, you can retain support abilities in non-support specs, but it should be like retaining healing abilities in non-healer specs. DPS shouldn't be depended on to provide support buffs. They should be focused on dealing damage. And yeah, that job doesn't have to be mindless. If there are phases where DPS has to keep adds off the healers and support for example, that can be quite exciting and rewarding for DPS.

No new class would be introduced.

I'm talking about in existing classes. That said, in future classes we can expect more than just the same ol' Tank/Healer/DPS configuration. Further, cool and novel support abilities like Symbiosis or Faerie Fire don't have to wither and die because they're appendages of non-support roles.

[Ielenia]

How is it not the same thing?

"Shall we bring a shaman for windfury totem?" and Tim who plays an enhancement shaman, Bob who plays an elemental shaman and Terry who plays a resto shaman are all valid options.
"Shall we bring a shaman of this specific support spec for windfury totem?" and now Tim, Bob and Terry are no longer viable options.

How can you not see the difference?

Specs lose "iconic" abilities all the time.

"All the time"? Really? Which game have you been playing all these years, because it certainly isn't WoW.

Replace them with compelling abilities that match their specialization and they'll be fine.

Again, if you truly believe players won't be angry as their specs and/or classes lose their utility and sometimes even iconic abilities, I doubt you have ever talked to a WoW player in your life.

Again, you can retain support abilities in non-support specs, but it should be like retaining healing abilities in non-healer specs.

That is not the argument you quoted, though. The argument is that your post there was in direct contradiction to your claims that "a new support spec would add complexity" when in actuality it makes the dps, tank and resto specs simpler.

That said, in future classes we can expect more than just the same ol' Tank/Healer/DPS configuration.

Which is not a good thing. The simple tank-dps-healer combo allows for quite a lot of complexity, by allowing the roles perform slightly out of their designed tasks, especially when crowd-control is involved.

[gd8]

Stating that Evokers are getting a third spec at all, much less support, is a pretty big leap.

And if they pulled DPS specs away from existing classes and reworked them.... the forums would be lit ablaze.

It's already been datamined that they're getting a third spec

[dread05]

"Shall we bring a shaman for windfury totem?" and Tim who plays an enhancement shaman, Bob who plays an elemental shaman and Terry who plays a resto shaman are all valid options.
"Shall we bring a shaman of this specific support spec for windfury totem?" and now Tim, Bob and Terry are no longer viable options.

How can you not see the difference?

Only enhancement has windfury totem tho, this argument doesn't stand.

[Ielenia]

Only enhancement has windfury totem tho, this argument doesn't stand.

It was my prior understanding that it was in the class talent tree, but alright. Still, replace that with any other useful support ability, such as heroism/bloodlust, tremor totem, capacitor totem, purge/greater purge, etc, and the argument remains the same. Or even get a different class, such as priest, and we have stuff like power infusion, power word: fortitude, mind control/dominate mind, etc.

[Alroxas]

This has already been solved. You just limit the number of players that can be affected by a support spec's buffs.

Except that's never been that great of a gameplay mechanic when translated into WoW. Enhancement shaman windfury group as an example illustrates how bad it can be if you have more than 4 melee DPS (excluding enhancement shaman).

Moreover, even the whispering icon trinket was changed from a party scope to raid scope because of how limiting it was to juggle groupings due to this kind of restriction.

[fwc577]

Does anyone think it’s possible that at some point Blizzard would give new specs for existing classes, and those specs would be support-based, like Bards and Dancers from Final Fantasy? Paladins, Monks, Shaman, Rogues, Mages, Hunters, Priests, and other classes could get new support roles.

More importantly, would those new specialization types be popular enough among the player base to warrant their creation?

I’m starting to believe that Blizzard might feel that the Trinity is outdated, and they may be looking to shake up the classes in some way. I don’t know how popular support classes are in other games, but people seem to love them, and are a bit bummed that they’re not in WoW.

No. This is likely not going to happen because it would be a logistical nightmare for balancing.

First off, the class would likely be balanced around 5-man groups because if you balance it around raid size, you're going to need to find a way / invent tech that allows their buff modifications to scale differently with raid size.

Second, technically, since it isn't a healer or tank, this means in 5-man groups, it's going to take the slot of 1 of the DPS. This is going to be a bigger problem in the long run as the people who play support roles are likely going to be the same people who play support roles currently (Healers). We already have a shortage of healers and an introduction of a support role is going to exacerbate that problem as you now essentially need two healers per group. In the end, you're going to see longer queue times for DPS.

Additionally, where that also causes things to be fucked around is how essential is the support role?

If it's meta, then as a support role, you will have no issues finding a group but as mentioned, you're fucking over all the DPS. If it's not a meta class and is under tuned, you're never getting into a group as a support role.

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It's already been datamined that they're getting a third spec

That datamining is speculation at best as it's a part of quest text given to a player via a quest at the start of the patch.

[Nachtigal]

No. Support roles are dumb.

[Alroxas]

Again, wouldn't the extra DPS simply be accounted for via tuning the instance or raid for the increased output of the group? Like if the players are putting out too much damage, simply adjust the numbers so that they're not doing too much damage. It's no different than when you're raid testing and a class is just blowing the meters; You adjust their damage/healing numbers to bring them in line to the raid.

Except what happens in cases where said support isn't in the group? For instance, the another poster recommended limiting the buffs that a support class/spec can do to only within the party they are in, so then it becomes even more a balancing act.

Let's say you nerf class X because with buff support class/spec they become OP, but what happens when class X is playing without the benefit of said buff support class/spec? Are you saying that now the game devs would need to balance the game both with and without a support spec? Including the various kinds of group (and solo) activities?

Wouldn't you simply add a new option on LFD/LFR/Group Finder? Wouldn't you simply increase or adjust the size of groups? I simply don't see this as some huge, game breaking problem. At the end of the day, the only thing this role would be doing is upping DPS and HPS and mitigation.

Really, it's not that simple. How many layers of systems would need to be adjusted or rewritten to accommodate this new reality of 6 member parties (versus the original 5) and how many dungeons/raids would need to be readjusted?

Moreover, any change of this scope is going to alienate some portion of the population so what do you say to them? Tough luck?

If it was so difficult for Blizzard to add 4 additional slots to the original backpack, how much harder is this idea of yours? Additionally, may I remind folks that unlike FFXI or GW2 or some other MMORPG, WoW wasn't built to include with those functions from the base game. So adding new systems is a lot more difficult than to create a new game with those systems in mind from the start. I'm not saying that it's impossible to code something new in but there are limits on what can be realistically added.

Moreover, any new additions have to be balanced with what doesn't make the cut. Sure Blizzard could add in new systems or expand systems to the base game but at what cost? Less new content? Costs a raid tier? Just go look at Cataclysm expansion, sure Blizzard revamped Azeroth and even allowed flight in Azeroth now but end-game content was lacking and not many players enjoyed the bulk of the changes in Cataclysm unless they rolled a new toon to level from 1.

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Weaker support skills can still keep you alive. Shaman for example don't really need heroism/bloodlust for soloing.

Uh... That's not true. Shamans (and mages and evokers) use heroism for soloing content that might normally require a group to do. For instance, a rare elite on the dragon isles.

[Elbob]

Oh brother.

How is it not the same thing? You need a tank to run group content because they taunt monsters and soak enemy damage. You'd need a support to run group content because they bring the necessary buffs. There's literally no difference here.

Specs lose "iconic" abilities all the time. Replace them with compelling abilities that match their specialization and they'll be fine.

Again, you can retain support abilities in non-support specs, but it should be like retaining healing abilities in non-healer specs. DPS shouldn't be depended on to provide support buffs. They should be focused on dealing damage. And yeah, that job doesn't have to be mindless. If there are phases where DPS has to keep adds off the healers and support for example, that can be quite exciting and rewarding for DPS.

I'm talking about in existing classes. That said, in future classes we can expect more than just the same ol' Tank/Healer/DPS configuration. Further, cool and novel support abilities like Symbiosis or Faerie Fire don't have to wither and die because they're appendages of non-support roles.

There is a big difference in that buffs and debuffs arent currently close to a required mechanic. You need to bring tanks because they mitigate enough dmg to not die to things, you need healers to undo the unavoidable damage to not die to things. So you are proposing some kind of buff/debuff system that some how is required to enable group play? How would that work? "use [random support debuff] on this boss or he 1 shots your group"... like is that the mechanic? Would all support specs just have the same abilities with a different name scribbled on the tooltip?

If you try to say they are required because of the damage they bring by buffing the raid/party well then you step into a disaster of balance troubles. In 5 mans they need to bring more effective damage then just a dps. Is running 2 going to be viable? Or they only worth it with 2 other dps? Suggesting changing the group size to 6 doesn't change this point it just moves to goal post to a different number. It still needs to be addressed.

What about in raid? If they are balanced around damage amp through debuffs do they just not stack? Is bringing 2 supports a super waste or does stacking just amplify they raid damage more and more? Do you keep the 5 man ratio of 1 support in raid per 2-3 dps? Or do their buffs apply raid wide? If they apply raid wide, do the buffs DR because they are affecting ~5x the number of players? Or are they just that much more powerful? If the buffs are single target imagine the raid organizing nightmare... every mid level CE guild trying to perfectly manage every support buff to the "right" dps, assuming different supports bring different buffs and they have multiple(because bringing a single PI doesn't warrant a raid spot). God this is nightmare town and its only the beginning, please don't bring supports like this to wow.

[RobertMugabe]

Define support class.

Almost every spec in the game is already a support in one way or another, but especially so healers.

[Nymrohd]

No. Support roles are dumb.

That's what healers are.

[Aurabolt]

Support Specs no. Tweaking existing specs to be more support than Tank/Heals/DPS is a different story though. After all, they tweaked existing specs to make them less support-dependant for reasons most explained already (Certain classes Mandated).

Personally, I always considered applying HoTs and DoTs as Support just as you would a stat buff/debuff. If this is about creating a pure Support Spec, why not just make it so existing specs can be modified for that via Talents? That shouldn't be as difficult to pull off.

...Oh and I miss Shaman Totems in Raids/Dungeons.

[Triceron]

IMO, to fit WoW's holy trinity system, and Support role will need boss/raid/dungeon mechanics that give it purpose.

Similar to how DPS and Tanks have Interrupts.
Healers have curse/poison/debuff removals
Tanks have Taunt and high aggro


So I think for Support to make sense, they would need to introduce new Raid mechanics, or modify existing ones to fit the necessity for Support.

Example- Fear mechanics that require a Fear removal. Healers and Support could get a Fear Removal, while Support also provides Fear Prevention and secures the raid even better. You don't need the Support to have a successful raid, but having one would be a boon and make encounters go smoother.

And it doesn't just have to be Fear mechanics. New Boss/Raid debuffs could be introduced that necessitate more prevention. Just like how Disease, Curse, Poison and Magic debuff removal were spread out amongst different healers, same can be done for different classes having 'Madness' removal, while all Support classes have tools to remove every type of 'Madness'. Madness mechanics wouldn't be necessary to remove, but offer a risk in raid wipe; like how Fear mechanics caused potential wipe if it got applied to your Tank and you didn't have Fear removal. You could push through without a Support, but things would be smoother if you did have one.

Similar mechanics can be peppered into Dungeons, and it'd be treated like if your class didn't have Curse removal or Interrupts. Your group can still do the encounter, but things would run a LOT smoother if you had the right composition.

[Nightshade711]

I doubt blizzard will outright make solely support specs.

I could see them add more support abilities to healers. Maybe give them something to do when not actively healing that isn’t doing DPS.

Or add some support-esque abilities/passives to DPS specs like Enhancement PvP was in Legion.

[Myradin]

The only way I see support working is if you just roll it into healer. So instead of the healer dpsing when not healing, they'd be throwing support stuff when not healing.

It avoid a new possibly mandatory role that'd mess with party composition, lets people keep all their current abilities, and gives healers who don't want to do damage something to do when not healing.

[Alroxas]

<snip>

IMO, to fit WoW's holy trinity system, and Support role will need boss/raid/dungeon mechanics that give it purpose.

All valid points but the OP has responded to this in a few ways. First, support would be a mandatory role so it would become a fourth pillar to the holy trinity quad. Second, OP would want the game to expand all group content to accommodate the new role. So parties would be 6 players instead of 5. Raids would be +1 to size to account for the support class.

Granted I have issues with this as nothing has been mentioned on how support classes would stack (if they stacked at all) nor how scaling would work between different group sizes (from party size of 5 6 to raid sizes of 10+).

Moreover, as I've previously stated, the amount of overhaul needed would be extensive and probably would come at the cost of other areas in wow development (i.e. New content, raid tier, etc).

And other commenters have stated that even trying to carve out a new spec for existing classes to be a support spec (i.e. Shaman Support, Mage Support, etc) would mean culling those "support" abilities from the existing specs to give to the support spec. Such as moving windfury, heroism, etc from non-support (i.e. Elemental, Resto, Enhancement) shamans to the support shaman spec. Ultimately, that's a pretty bad idea as most players would be upset at the loss of their spec abilities so that another spec could be formed from these abilities.

Just look at demonology warlocks pre-Demon Hunters and the outcry for demonology after it was gutted for Demon Hunters.

[Daedius]

Does anyone think it’s possible that at some point Blizzard would give new specs for existing classes, and those specs would be support-based, like Bards and Dancers from Final Fantasy? Paladins, Monks, Shaman, Rogues, Mages, Hunters, Priests, and other classes could get new support roles.

More importantly, would those new specialization types be popular enough among the player base to warrant their creation?

I’m starting to believe that Blizzard might feel that the Trinity is outdated, and they may be looking to shake up the classes in some way. I don’t know how popular support classes are in other games, but people seem to love them, and are a bit bummed that they’re not in WoW.

Give a General Spec for any class to use... like Triage, Warriors being able to heal with Bandages!

[Elbob]

All valid points but the OP has responded to this in a few ways. First, support would be a mandatory role so it would become a fourth pillar to the holy trinity quad. Second, OP would want the game to expand all group content to accommodate the new role. So parties would be 6 players instead of 5. Raids would be +1 to size to account for the support class.

Granted I have issues with this as nothing has been mentioned on how support classes would stack (if they stacked at all) nor how scaling would work between different group sizes (from party size of 5 6 to raid sizes of 10+).

Moreover, as I've previously stated, the amount of overhaul needed would be extensive and probably would come at the cost of other areas in wow development (i.e. New content, raid tier, etc).

And other commenters have stated that even trying to carve out a new spec for existing classes to be a support spec (i.e. Shaman Support, Mage Support, etc) would mean culling those "support" abilities from the existing specs to give to the support spec. Such as moving windfury, heroism, etc from non-support (i.e. Elemental, Resto, Enhancement) shamans to the support shaman spec. Ultimately, that's a pretty bad idea as most players would be upset at the loss of their spec abilities so that another spec could be formed from these abilities.

Just look at demonology warlocks pre-Demon Hunters and the outcry for demonology after it was gutted for Demon Hunters.

Why does changing party size effect anything? Almost none of the down the line problems have been addressed by the concept. All that is happening here is we are creating another limited role. The OP's post seems to suggest that only 1 would work in raid/parties. How/why though? There are already problems in role ratio problems because of raids vs 5mans with tanks and now you are suggesting a role that has it even worse? Why even add a 21st raid spot? Why wouldn't you just keep the raid size the same? That goes to dungeon size as well...

The idea is half-baked at best and probably a terrible recipe to start with. To fit this role into the game properly modern wow would need to become a very different game. A lot of what I'm seeing is people suggesting adding mechanics to justify adding the role which is just a weird take. Like adding special dispels that are just for them even though the healer role already is designed around doing most of the dispels. I think the support concept is already baked into the existing roles, things like crowd controls/stuns, interrupts, dispels, knockbacks, grp buffs/movement cds are sprinkled amongst the classes/specs/roles and trying to make a role with whats left is not viable. The 1d concept of a support sounds interesting, a role that helps everyone do what they do better, but once you get into the weeds a little, it seems pretty hollow and probably needs things invented or stripped from other to justify its existence.

[Jujudrood]

I've always been confused by people asking for a support class/spec, because they exist.
They are called Healers, and to an extent, Tanks.
I mean, Healers are _the_ support class, because without one, you don't get green numbers back, then you die.
Tanks are also support, in that they keep the attention of the mobs so you can damage and do other things.
It fits within the Holy Trinity and it works with the core fundamentals of WoW's systems.

You may think you want a full support class or spec, but do you really want to go back to the days of the totem bitch?
Vanilla through WotLK, you didn't bring a shaman because they were good at what they did, you brought them because of those sweet, sweet totem buffs and lust.
Trading one raid spot for totems that helped everyone was worth it, but only one raid spot because you were better off having a better DPS otherwise.
That's what a 'true' support class or spec would be; bring one of them because it justifies their presence and helps everyone else, but no more than that bc then you operate at a loss.

Any counter argument to a true support class is to give them more damage or survivability, and that just puts them right back into the holy trinity, but poorer in performance in solo content and a limited desire quantity elsewhere.
Instead, just give healers and tanks more group utility as support abilities.
Something like a new prayer down the holy priest tree that, when spec'd into it, they can channel a group/raid wide mastery buff or something, praying to their gods to strengthen their friends when healing is at a lull.
It would fit the theme, serve its purpose as support (you net 0 but everyone else gets something), and give healers something else to do in downtime outside of spamming holy fire and smite.