Sugestion on how to improve the quality of raids in cataclysm

[Deleted]

Yawn.

[Skiball]

Said it before, I loved the old heroics. Back then I was not a raider but let me tell you the most fun ever was being able to walk through heroic arc, heroic gm, heroic slabs, and heroic shat halls before they were nerfed and peope had t6+ gear while these super leet elitiest raiders were afraid of them. It was like progression for player who simply could not make a raid schedule or only has a few RL friends they enjoyed playing with.

[Pancakeah]

10 mans = high quality blues (-hard modes)
25 mans = epics.

just a thought, I cant find anyone in dalaran that doesn't have full epics :/

[veemon_ro]

If anything raise the gap. Harder hardmodes are always welcome.

I keep saying this. try and start a new guild and get it from normal to hard mode. Theres gonna be a laugh.
Decresing the gap means either, making normal harder or making hard mode easyer OR do both.

Yeah, can't really argue.There is a sense of progression. It's the same as bc or even vanilla. If you go from naxx 10 to toc 25 you are overcoming gear requirements with skill.

Bullshit. Every new guild that would start now would skip ulduar. In fact i know so many guilds who cant kill yog saron yet they have no problem with killing anub.
And dont get me wrong im comparing NORMAL with NORMAL mode here.

As for hard mode..yog saron + 0 is still HARDER then anub heroic.

perhaps have 2 bosses down in toc10.Most of vanilla was puggable, not sure if it was pugged...but it's easier content and therefore if it was ran today...it would be pugged.

Vanilla had 40 man raids with boss battles that would go over 10 minutes. It was alot easyer for some one to screw up back then.
Now you got what? 2-5 minute boss battles with 25 people, most of these bosses can be done with half the raid dead.

But yeah...what server and what did you pug back in vanilla?

All of BC was pugged on most servers. Often to the progression of the top guilds or just under. Everything looks better with rose colored glasses on.

Yeah I remember lf2m need a tank and a healer for m'uru. NO WAIT. It never happened.

For one, people would stop doing them.
For two, tbc heroics weren't fun. You only did them because you had to. And if you were in good gear you still pulled it all and aoed it down. With the accessibility of both raiding and information gear just came a bit faster than before.

Gtfo . And you're telling me wotlk heroics are a blast.
Why exactly? You need 0 focus and concentration. Its just a waste of time. They're like a cheap whore. You don't go there to "have fun" you go there to "do your business" and then gtfo asap.

In tbc i actually had to focus and make sure i didn't mess up. And when my item FINALLY droped after 5 runs or I would reach exalted I would be extremly happy and satisfied.

I'd go as far as to say that more people are enjoying raids now than ever before.

Fascinating. You made interviews?

Mostly due to the fact that more people are able to raid and progress instead of hitting a wall on the first trash pull.

You mean the wall they hit when they atempt the hard mode for the first time? Since there isn't any sense of progression? You go from extremly easy to extremly hard with no middle ground?

If anything, I learned more about my classes in wrath than I did before, because I get to play more than just my main.

So basicly the game needs to be done so theres NOTHING at all to do outside raids, so people can go play other classes, because lets be honest, thats the reason you were playing an alt in the first place.

Even mediocre guild are attempting hardmodes now, that's a huge leap from .2% of players even seeing content. That's why people pug the content too...the playerbase as a whole is not nearly as bad as before.

yeah..again try starting your own "mediocre guild" and reach hard modes, youll see what happens.

Raiding is better now than ever before. Stop being bad.

Yeah completly agree both quality and quantity. Before i could raid 4 hrs a day for 7 days a week, now i run out of content.
Before youd have memorable fights like "Ilidan, vashj, kael and kj not to mention m'uru" now the memorable fights are ..what exactly? Yog+0 and maybe the new arthas?

[Sparkyl]

And Ony 3 manned at lv 60? What? The same Ony that needed 40 people? Maybe it was 3 manned by 3 x lv 70 when Ony remained lv 60....

Yes Onyxia was 3 manned at level60, the same as Loatheb the boss that most guilds didnt down was 5manned. You not being able to do it doesnt make it impossible, im sure its still on warcraft movies somewhere.

A lot of people moan about the current content and the current difficuilty but I think where its at seems to be of a good level. Most people that moan about the difficuilty havnt cleared TotGC or cleared Ulduar pre 3.2.

I loved the old school days of wiping for 3 weeks on a boss and finally killing it was a great feeling. But Blizzard are a business and to cater for the majority is just common sense, the problem is where do you draw the line?

The content atm I like, I get to do the hard modes on my main and I get to do normal and get ilvl245 on my alt. You cant please everyone though so keep the QQ's rolling.

Oh and for the guy saying Vanilla was puged. The only pieces of vanilla i saw pugged was MC when Naxxramas was out and that was on Stormscale, not exactly the smallest server. Maybe by peoples alts that had cleared it all but it wasnt puged like instaces are nowadays.

[veemon_ro]

Yes Onyxia was 3 manned at level60, the same as Loatheb the boss that most guilds didnt down was 5manned. You not being able to do it doesnt make it impossible, im sure its still on warcraft movies somewhere.

Just because very few people did it, doesn't make it the trend.
Onyxia was still a very hard boss back then where the majority of the guilds would whipe before have it on farm.
Those 3 people who done it were not only overgearing the encounter, but theyve also done it so many times they knew it by heart.
On wotlk how ever you can 3 man nax 10 with items from only nax 10.

A lot of people moan about the current content and the current difficuilty but I think where its at seems to be of a good level. Most people that moan about the difficuilty havnt cleared TotGC or cleared Ulduar pre 3.2.

Done that still moaning. Hey the guild i made cleared swp too, can i moan now?

I loved the old school days of wiping for 3 weeks on a boss and finally killing it was a great feeling. But Blizzard are a business and to cater for the majority is just common sense, the problem is where do you draw the line?

They also have a slogan "gameplay above all" on the statue in front of their building.
But if you're saying they're screw gameplay, lets become more like EA Games, then they can do that at loosing PR from the gamers who wasted their monney so far.

The content atm I like, I get to do the hard modes on my main and I get to do normal and get ilvl245 on my alt. You cant please everyone though so keep the QQ's rolling.

The only reason you play on an alt is because there is nothing else to do on your main. Admit it.

Oh and for the guy saying Vanilla was puged. The only pieces of vanilla i saw pugged was MC when Naxxramas was out and that was on Stormscale, not exactly the smallest server. Maybe by peoples alts that had cleared it all but it wasnt puged like instaces are nowadays.

People love to exagerate. Vanilla was never pugged.

[sd78]

Yes Onyxia was 3 manned at level60, the same as Loatheb the boss that most guilds didnt down was 5manned. You not being able to do it doesnt make it impossible, im sure its still on warcraft movies somewhere.

Funny, I can't seem to find it.

I 4manned Ony after hitting 70 and it took AGES. The typical WotLK PUG wouldn't be able to down 40Ony in a million years.

Oh and for the guy saying Vanilla was puged. The only pieces of vanilla i saw pugged was MC when Naxxramas was out and that was on Stormscale, not exactly the smallest server. Maybe by peoples alts that had cleared it all but it wasnt puged like instaces are nowadays.

This is true.

The first few bosses got PUG'd once a week in a raid lead by a small guild of transfers on Jubei Thos. This was after Naxx had been up for a good couple of months.

[Gron]

1. Lower the dificulty gap between Normal and heroic.

At the moment normal mode is incredibly easy while hard mode is exactly the oposite. This causes alot of newlystarted or mediocre guilds to think "hard mode is impossible" because the game doesn't provide a smooth learning curve for new players.
Basicly the first boss as a hard mode should be slightly dificult then the last boss normal and then bosses should become harder and harder as the instance goes on.

2. Make 2 instances per tier.

Alot of guilds that I know off have stoped raiding ulduar, just because toc gives better loot as they bring the "Why whipe for cheaper loot" mentality.
Its sad but true, alot of players do play the game for rewards or the promise of a reward and in many cases this comes from epics.

Having 2 instances share the same tier (like tk/ssc mh/bt) would increase the life span of both raiding instances, and also adds a bit more variety to the guilds raiding calendar.

3. Add a sense of progression back into the game

At the moment if I would start a new guild id begin raiding nax 10 then toc 25, skiping ulduar alltogether (wich is harder then toc btw)

While I understand new players should catch up to the end game raiding, people shouldn't be able to simply jump over instances. Otherwise one could just cancel his account untill the last raiding instance is available, play that then cancel his account again untill the next expansion.

4. Stop making instances puggable.

While I agree that every one should see all the content, they should do so inside a guild. Otherwise guilds will start to decline and experience alot of dificulties as players will realise they don't have to be in one in order to acomplish things anymore.
The keepers in ulduar were decent bosses that, while beeing easy, were also chalanging enough that most pugs wouldn't be able to clear them.

5. Stop showering people with epics.

The whole reason of epics beeing fun was that it took some time to gear your toon up. In tbc I've spend 2 months to get full t6 gear from mh and bt.
Now a days it takes maximum 2 weeks to gear up an alt to full epic making the excitment of geting a new item far less then what it used to be.

6.Make heroic 5 mans heroic again.
Add CC and make them chalanging. That way people can master their class a bit more and the experience of doing a heroic wouldn't be just "Gogogo pull gogogo aoe come on move gogogogo".

I agree with this 100%.

One more point I would add is:

7. Make raids scale on difficulty in line with item Ilevel. So... TOC should have been harder than Ulduar. Emalon, Koralon etc. are all on the same level, they should be progressively harder to down. Make different raids, not just the flatline same skilled ones!

[Melonberry]

"Most of vanilla was puggable, not sure if it was pugged...but it's easier content and therefore if it was ran today...it would be pugged. All of BC was pugged on most servers. Often to the progression of the top guilds or just under. Everything looks better with rose colored glasses on. Hell, ony was 3 manned at 60. Try 3 manning even ony10 now."

Wow!!!! Whoever posted this must have been on some superman server.

MC was pugged at first (Up to Lucifron, haha) because the concept of raids were new. After that it was guilds and nothing else. No bloody way you could PuG the place...unless maybe you were in a AQ 40 guild and went back for shits and giggles.

And Ony 3 manned at lv 60? What? The same Ony that needed 40 people? Maybe it was 3 manned by 3 x lv 70 when Ony remained lv 60....

And I am aware of very, very few attempts to PuG anything in TBC.

As for the "Sugestion on how to improve the quality of raids in cataclysm":

You have to be aware that Blizzard has evolved or changed raids for a reason. If the general acceptance of the old raidsystem was as great as people want to make us believe, we would still have 40 man raids of ballbreaking AQ 40 and Naxx 40 hardness.

As it is now, Blizzard obviously takes the chance that some people who think will cancel their subscription, but for everybody who does so, 10 people stay and renew their subscription or come back to the game.

Mind you..they still do not seem to be happy with the new systems, because it has been changed several times and is changing again for ICC.

http://www.warcraftmovies.com/moviev...f2e92248bb1e8a
3 manning ony40 at level 60. It was easily soloed at 70. Vanilla was hard right?

And I said puggable...Not that it was pugged. Although a lot of it was. Given todays level of info/addons/player skill...It would all be pugged. Nothing is really complex in pretty much all of the fights. And yes, I used to see MC pugs near daily. BWL pugs maybe once a week. (both being selective about who they bring of course...not like today) Given that way more people didn't know how to optimize their dps/heals/tankage back then than now...that's acceptable. If they did I'm sure there would have been naxx pugs.

Everything up until sunwell was pugged in bc. Well, about 3/4 of sunwell at least. Full cleared by pugs all the time after 3.0. I went on these with my main whenever I couldn't make the raid that week. They didn't go as smoothly as the top guilds, but they normally got the job done.

I four-manned Ony after hitting lvl70 and it took over half an hour. The only way it would even remotely possible at 60 would be abusing some borderline exploit.

I 4manned Ony after hitting 70 and it took AGES. The typical WotLK PUG wouldn't be able to down 40Ony in a million years.

You both are horrible. It was soloable at 70...and that only took ~20 minutes. No wonder you never saw pugs, if you think you are the good people on your server....-shudder-

Just because very few people did it, doesn't make it the trend.
Onyxia was still a very hard boss back then where the majority of the guilds would whipe before have it on farm.
Those 3 people who done it were not only overgearing the encounter, but theyve also done it so many times they knew it by heart.
On wotlk how ever you can 3 man nax 10 with items from only nax 10.

You can't 3 man naxx 10, even with togc25 gear. Well maybe...that actually sounds like a challenge. But that's not even the same. 3 manning ony40 is less than 10% of the people. It's like 3 manning naxx25 but one of the guys isn't wearing armor.


Seriously, were you all on horrible servers or something? No ony pugs in vanilla? No MC pugs? Of course since some of you took half an hour to 4 man ony at 70, maybe you just weren't invited.

[Bralaap]

You forget 1 thing: show me the amount of guilds/people on an average server that had Naxx on farm in Vanilla WoW... Most of the players didn't even get in the so-called "top"-guilds (and of those that did, I dare to say over 50% has left the game), so you can't blame people for not doing the content you describe.
On the other hand, I started my "WoW-carreer" on Kilrogg-EU, then a new server with a lot of new players. Even there were MC-pugs, with no Vent. The horror...

[Reconor]

There is nothing skilled about chosing a right comp, knowing your classes and utilizing all game mechanics available, to achieve such a think.

It didn't take much to 2-man Flame Leviathan. All it takes is the possibiliy in mechanics (with nowadays pot, the 3 man 60 ony would be significantly more difficult) and people with half a clue.

The hard thing about 40 mans in vanilla on many servers was getting 40 people together where enough of which didn't suck. It is always possible to carry the raid with a certain amount of good people having the rest as dummies, however on certain fights where everyone is supposed to pay attention to some things, idiots screw it up for the rest. (and its always the same people <.<) I've seen people that are dreadful players in general, but you'd still prefer them over an idiot that does 10k dps, simply because they understand when to 'move out of the fire', to use that cliche.

There are just not that many servers with enough good people to succesfully 'full-pug' such things. The succesful pugs on my server always came from a base group of good players (usually from the same guild) with a more or less monitored situation on who to allow in or not.

[Asatar]

1. Lower the dificulty gap between Normal and heroic.

Yes and no. Hard modes are in a good place, normal modes are not. I agree there needs to be something for the bad and / or casual players, but making instances completely retard proof? The ONLY way it is actually possible to wipe in ToC normal is if someone cannot dodge big yetis. You need absolutely NO skill or ability for any of the ToC normal modes. I genuinely think I could do ToC as a dps'er by literally spamming every single button on my keyboard randomly.

In my opinion, ToC was the break in what has so far been decent raiding. Tier 7 content was easy, but thats because its ENTRY level. There was still SOME progress for the good guilds (3 drakes, Immortal) but everyone could clear Naxx and see Kel'thuzad. Ulduar was done brilliantly in my opinion, there was something for everyone. A lot of guilds STILL dont have Yogg0 down even though its pretty faceroll in ToGC gear. ToC has meant there is absolutely NO reason to do Ulduar / OS / Naxx / EoE anymore.

2. Make 2 instances per tier.

This would be nice, purely so that we dont burn out on farming the same instance 4+ times every week. At the moment, I'm doing ToC25 on 3 characters, ToC10 on 3, ToGC10 on 2 and ToGC25 on 1. That is a total of NINE ToC clears every week. Plus Algalon10, Ulduar25, 3x Onyxia10, 3x Onyxia25, 3x VoA10, 3x VoA25 and thats a LOT of repetitive raiding. Currently we're doing about 6 hours of farm raids and 1 hour of progress raiding per week.

3. Add a sense of progression back into the game

Not too sure what you mean by this. There is progression, but its only in the hard modes.

4. Stop making instances puggable.

I disagree with this. Normal modes SHOULD be puggable, but not by drooling mouthbreathing idiots. I have no problem with 25 skilled players with 226+ gear managing to do ToC25, but it should NOT be doable by people who have never done anything except farm heroics for their 2p t8 and TotC5 for random lolepics and yet still manage to stand in fire, chain the ranged / tank camps, not cleanse people etc etc etc. Skilled casuals pugging? No problem at all. Retards who play 5+ hours a day and still suck and use entirely welfare gear and go "lolol stfu nub i r do 4k+ dps ok??!", no, they should stay in Naxx / heroics.

5. Stop showering people with epics.

Hmmm a tricky one. There needs to be a sort of welfare system so that people who started the game late or rerolled aren't left behind like they were in Vanilla. I think the current system is acceptable, BUT they need to stop giving out tier gear for emblems. Tier equivalent gear like in BC is fine, but the actual set bonuses and tier gear itself should be available only to raiders. This also goes for the tier 9 system. They shouldnt have included the ilvl232 tier stuff.

Now VoA....that is a conundrum in itself. Yes I like being able to get pvp gear and the latest tier gear on my alts asap, but there is a big flaw with this. VoA itself is a decent concept, but it should only award the PREVIOUS season / tier of gear (i.e. Koralon dropping t8 / furious). I hope they change the system for Cataclysm.
5. Stop showering people with epics.

6.Make heroic 5 mans heroic again.

Meh, heroics were hard when you first dinged 80 in the first week of release and everyone was in blue gear. The problem now is everyone is farming them for emblems for their 2p t8 and is overgeared. They should be tuned SLIGHTLY higher, but in general they are pretty much fine. MgT was overtuned for fresh 70s, UK / DTK etc are undertuned.

[JackBauerLOL]

How to improve the quality of raids in Cataclysm

Step 1 - Get rid of the "EVERYTHING MUST BE PUGGABLE" mission statement
Step 2 - Provide challenges in early tiers so there can actually be a learning curve and people actually improve their play
Step 3 - Tune raids properly - don't tune them for two tiers below.

If this is too difficult for the b-team devs just give a switch to click that makes bosses hit twice as hard.

[zaneosak]

Let me just say one thing regarding making things not puggable.

EVERYTHING IS PUGGABLE IN THIS GAME!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you think slapping a guild tag on 10 or 25 people gives them some magical aura to be amazing? Just surround yourself with GOOD PLAYERS zone into ToGC and pew pew shit. Dont take bad players, dont take your friends that suck, Take good players and win.

As far as the heroic and normal mode gap. ITS FINE , HARD MODES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HARD. Do you want casuals to see all content ? yes? Ok good, go do normal modes. If you're a hardcore raiding guild you can do hard mode, just practice, perfect your playstyle and get good people. With more talk like this Blizz will add a "medium mode" to every encounter like Iron Council (which is funny b/c Runemaster last is significantly harder than Steelbreaker last hehe)

On the plus side, I totally agree with more raids, 2 per tier would be nice if they are going to release 5 boss raids like ToC. My 10 man group (which is what I do primarily) used to raid Friday/Saturday in Ulduar 10 and now we just do ToC10 and ToGC10 on fridays in like 2 hrs total. Leaves for a boring rest of the weekend

[veemon_ro]

1.Alot of players realise they dont have to be in a guild in order to get gear. Why follow all these rules when you can pretty much play solo?
2.It encourages people to reroll. In TBC if you were in a swp guild as a tank you stayed as a tank. Now its so much fun when the full t10.5 tank wants to go dps, since he can gear his rogue up in 2 weeks. (And big whoop if you don't let him, theres 200 other guilds doing the same content out there).
3. All the guilds are doing the same content, meaning people can guildhop as much as they want with little to no reprecaution.
4.People don't care if they show up for raids anymore. Who cares if i miss this weeks toc, I can just pug it on friday.
5. When content is so easy that people with no comunication can do it becomes even easyer for a guild that communicates over ventrilo and has a solid leedership system.

And you can say. Yeah well you have hardmodes.

Thats bullshit because the dificulty gap is so huge, to the point of me not beeing aware of ANY guild that has started in wotlk with random members and then eventually started doing hardmodes.
I do know alot of guilds that started in tbc as a kara guild with random people and reached sunwell even 6 months before the expansion.

[Rowen]

I won't comment on the first part, if I were you I'd rephrase it so it doesn't look like you miss those days in BC when you had your guild under an iron fist.

Thats bullshit because the dificulty gap is so huge, to the point of me not beeing aware of ANY guild that has started in wotlk with random members and then eventually started doing hardmodes.
I do know alot of guilds that started in tbc as a kara guild with random people and reached sunwell even 6 months before the expansion.

Seriously? The gap isn't that huge, IMO. 10 man hardmodes are a good step between 25 man and 25 hard. Heartbreaker 10 isn't that difficult, isn't it? Even with 232 gear 10 man Thorim, Hodir and Freya aren't that hard. Heartbreaker 25 is long, but not hard, and Flame Leviathan hard is challenging and funny but not wipetastic at all. I can't believe that guilds that can down anub 25 normal, easy as it is, are powerless against beasts 10 hard.

[DrgnDancer]

I disagreed with some of these and agreed with others, but the one that really stood out to me was:

6.Make heroic 5 mans heroic again.

Apparently you reached 80 well after the release of WOTLK, or you have forgotten what it was like the second or third week after release. Heroics, in the gear they were tuned for, (lvl 80 blues with an epic here or there) were quite challenging. I remember such gems as skipping King Dread, or coming back to him after the rest of the instance was clear, wiping repeatedly on Ingvar (OMG watch out for the axe!), or having PuGs just break up and leave because you couldn't skip Skadi and he was a bitch. The vast majority of the time we eventually cleared the instance, and a few of them were pretty easy even back then (Drak' Tharon in particular was a face roll if you skipped Dread), but in general the heroics were quite challenging when people were running them in appropriate gear.

Now that everyone is running them in 2p 8.5 and assorted raid pieces, yeah, they're stupid easy. The problem isn't that heroics are too easy, it's that Blizzard has kept them relevant past the point of their being challenging. I need triumph badges to get my 245 ilvl gear, so my ToC and Ulduar geared rogue does the daily heroic almost every day. so do all the other ToC and Ulduar geared people. Most of the time Ingvar doesn't even get to release the axe that used to give us much trouble. He's dead in 15 seconds.

I don't know what the solution is to this problem. I know why Blizz does it. They want to make higher tier gear accessible to newer 80s, and the only way to do it is put higher level badges in the heroics, but that encourages the over geared people to do those same heroics. And makes the heroics look like jokes, which they really aren't

[veemon_ro]

Apparently you reached 80 well after the release of WOTLK, or you have forgotten what it was like the second or third week after release. Heroics, in the gear they were tuned for, (lvl 80 blues with an epic here or there) were quite challenging. I remember such gems as skipping King Dread, or coming back to him after the rest of the instance was clear, wiping repeatedly on Ingvar (OMG watch out for the axe!), or having PuGs just break up and leave because you couldn't skip Skadi and he was a bitch. The vast majority of the time we eventually cleared the instance, and a few of them were pretty easy even back then (Drak' Tharon in particular was a face roll if you skipped Dread), but in general the heroics were quite challenging when people were running them in appropriate gear.

After i reached lvl 80 in wotlk, i went the very next day in nax with lvl 70 swp gear and we've pwned the place. So i basicly skiped the whole heroic thing.
As for outgearing heroics...I do recall back in the day that even if you had full tk/ssc gear you couldn't just run in arcatraz and not focus on the pulls whatsoever.
But then again you got to love the people who bealive everething ghostcrawler says without even thinking for themselves.

Now that everyone is running them in 2p 8.5 and assorted raid pieces, yeah, they're stupid easy. The problem isn't that heroics are too easy, it's that Blizzard has kept them relevant past the point of their being challenging. I need triumph badges to get my 245 ilvl gear, so my ToC and Ulduar geared rogue does the daily heroic almost every day. so do all the other ToC and Ulduar geared people. Most of the time Ingvar doesn't even get to release the axe that used to give us much trouble. He's dead in 15 seconds.

The reason is that not only they're easy. but they're NOT fun to the point where people didn't want to do them.
I recall quite clearel when ulduar was out that people had problems finding a group for heroics on their alts and had to wait for 1hr+ just to go somewhere, it was that bad.

I don't know what the solution is to this problem. I know why Blizz does it. They want to make higher tier gear accessible to newer 80s, and the only way to do it is put higher level badges in the heroics, but that encourages the over geared people to do those same heroics. And makes the heroics look like jokes, which they really aren't

Mmmm..no sorry they are a joke...heres a nice read http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....55811249&sid=1

[Melonberry]

Great video. So 3 people could do it, 10.999.997 couldn't.

There are and will always be exceptional people and exceptional servers. It doesn't make it the rule ofc and it will never have the game tuned to this level of skill as the average level obviously.

You know...just like there are people who can hold their breath for 5 minutes or runn 100 metres in 9 seconds... It is like Haile Gebrselassie running the Marathon in 2 hours, then turning to you who arrives in 5 hours and smugly saying "Running is hard, right"

There weren't 11 million players back then. Also, everything was tuned around people being absolutely fucking horrible back then. Even naxx40. Sure, the best players in the best guilds did about 1.4k on patchwerk, but the average player did like 200. Content was tuned around the fact that everyone was bad. TBC was tuned a bit tighter, while people were doing 3.6k on brut, the average person in a good guild was getting a lot closer, doing at least 2k in a similar fight.

Nowadays, everyone does 90%+ of what the people in the top guilds do. Content is tuned around everyone being...fairly good, but not the near perfect we actually see so many people doing. If the current cap was 60, ony would be pugged with 5 people or less constantly. People are that much better now.

Hell, togc10 and 25 are both pugged now, and often full clears. OS25 +3 zerg has been pugged since sometime in the ulduar patch. You don't think the people pugging this stuff could have pugged through naxx40? Naxx40's strats and dps requirements are way lower than togc.

[veemon_ro]

There weren't 11 million players back then. Also, everything was tuned around people being absolutely fucking horrible back then. Even naxx40. Sure, the best players in the best guilds did about 1.4k on patchwerk, but the average player did like 200. Content was tuned around the fact that everyone was bad. TBC was tuned a bit tighter, while people were doing 3.6k on brut, the average person in a good guild was getting a lot closer, doing at least 2k in a similar fight.

Nowadays, everyone does 90%+ of what the people in the top guilds do. Content is tuned around everyone being...fairly good, but not the near perfect we actually see so many people doing. If the current cap was 60, ony would be pugged with 5 people or less constantly. People are that much better now.

Hell, togc10 and 25 are both pugged now, and often full clears. OS25 +3 zerg has been pugged since sometime in the ulduar patch. You don't think the people pugging this stuff could have pugged through naxx40? Naxx40's strats and dps requirements are way lower than togc.

No, back then you needed 40 people to do a raid and boss battles could even last up to 30 minutes in such cases.
There was ALOT of room for error and for some one to do a mistake and cause a whipe.

Now you have 25 people and boss battles last 10 minutes maximum. They have no enrage timers and some bosses can be killed even if half the raid dies after the boss is bellow 50%. Id like to see you do lets say the emperor twins with half the raid dead at 50%.

As for you saying nax 40 could be puged...

Heh id love to see you get a PUG of 40 people who dont fake dcing, go afk etc.
Id like to see how you manage to CC all the mobs and make sure no one breaks sheeps (and yes back then trash wasnt just round them up and aoe, youd have to make sure you cc and respect target assigments).
And most importantly id like to see you manage to get your nax pug to get the dps required to kill KJ.
As I remember back then, we would do an onyxia run before nax, just so every one would get the cry of the warchief buff for the KZ fight.

So naga, please, before you say vanilla was pugable, ask yourself again, what guild were you in vanilla and what was your progress