Keep Calia out of the Forsaken story.

[Frinata]

Oh my he's actually been banned damn, wonder what for.

I will say that I don't find Calia to be a particularly compelling addition to the Desolate Council and the Horde as a whole, but it's not because she's a quote Alliance character unquote (she really isn't), rather it's because she doesn't share the burden her people carry.

The Forsaken are monsters, they're perpetually rotting walking corpses, they reek of decay and have to stitch themselves together to be able to function.. And they're now partially being lead by some beautiful pale lady dressed in gold with glowing eyes and her cleavage out?

Forgive me but how the hell could any self respecting Forsaken be loyal her?

She has her own burden that is in relation to the Forsaken, which is a different flavor of their burden.

The Forsaken have always felt like they don't belong, and alot of the world agrees with that sentiment, but regardless of that, they defend their right to exist, and make an effort to show that they aren't the Scourge, they're free individuals.

Calia feels like she doesn't belong, that the Alliance would, while accepting her, always treat her differently, and the Forsaken absolutely treat her differently, but don't hide that fact. She chose the Forsaken, because of the two groups, she feels more of a connection to them now. She understands, on some level, what they are going through.

The Forsaken were forced to do some horrible things while they were subjugated under the Crown, and then their leader who saved them seemingly followed in his footsteps, and then tried to kill the whole world. Calia shares a stained name, and feels the shame of that name, and fears that others cast judgment on her for the crimes of someone she wasn't even around for during the entirety of his criminal acts that turned him into the Lich King and tore down the Kingdom.

They are allowing her on the Council for a few reasons, the first is Lillian Voss. She stuck up for Calia, knowing what Calia is going through, having felt the same about herself. Calia then proceeded to risk her 'life' to grab a pure sample of the Plague, which in turn, returned Lordaeron to the Forsaken, their literal home. Then, during the Forsaken Heritage Questline, she helped defend that home from the Scarlet Crusade.

There's good reasons for the Forsaken to atleast tolerate her presence. You're just ignoring them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

4 are definitely guilty and per what Calia tells Elsie, everyone else was also defecting, they just tried to pussy out when they realized they wouldn't get to the gates before they got shot.

The book doesn’t support this.

Before any shots were fired there were loyal forsaken returning to Sylvanas.

“The retreat,” Anduin managed, grimacing as the pain increased. “It’s dangerous.” A second pain struck Anduin, different but even more devastating to him. For this was not the bone-hurting ache of the Divine Bell’s handiwork but the knife-sharp pain of a dream shattering before his eyes. With a sick jolt, Anduin saw that the tiny figures who had stood at attention on Thoradin’s Wall were now mounted on bats and flying toward the field.
Dark rangers.
“It’s over,” he whispered, and leaned on the parapet. “Get them to safety before it’s too late!”
On the field below, spread out like markers in the map room, were other tiny figures. Some of them were heading back toward Thoradin’s Wall. Some were returning to the keep.
And some still stood in the field as if paralyzed.

At best we can add a 5th defector according to shadows rising but that still leaves them killing loyalist.

[Ersula]

While Calia's weird Light undeath is distasteful in so many ways she is also a Menethil. The future of Forsaken identity seems to be in Lordaeronian nationalism and pride so having a Menethil around helps ground the story. Imo Blizzard should have made her Forsaken alongside Alonsus, living apart from the Forsaken for fear of Sylvanas murdering a clear political rival the moment she has any opinion (which she did). And I actually think it's good that they have a Menethil around. Yes, they loathe Arthas but his father was a beloved monarch.

Assuming Saa'ra is suppossed to address the forsaken reproduction issue, and they wanted a member of the council to represent their antiquated alliance culture, her inclusion makes sense: But going into the future, to give her more development over the established, maligned Forsaken characters with established fanbase among forsaken players, would confirms she's just Danuser's new pet character.

Before any shots were fired there were loyal forsaken returning to Sylvanas.

That's just your interpretation. You have never really grasped that first-person narration of in-universe characters is subjective, not objective. There is no good reason for anyone to think this wasn't an attempted defection.

[Aucald]

That's just your interpretation. You have never really grasped that first-person narration of in-universe characters is subjective, not objective. There is no good reason for anyone to think this wasn't an attempted defection.

We know from the text of Before the Storm that Sylvanas didn't care about the defection, what actually prompted her to murder her own people on the field (defectors and loyalists alike) was the presence of Calia Menethil and the possibility of an implicit challenge to her authority as ruler of the Forsaken. As soon as Calia was positively identified, all of the Forsaken at the Gathering were effectively doomed. The very fact that she butchered even those loyalists left on the field goes to show that Sylvanas didn't give a shit about Parqual or the Felstones defecting - the goal was to kill Calia herself, which she did. The rest of the Forsaken dead were just political cover for a targeted assassination.

[Super Dickmann]

No sophistry is required, really. Someone defecting from a hostile nation and receiving asylum in another nation doesn't make them a citizen of the nation extending them asylum. Only Parqual himself professed pro-Alliance sentiment - the others arguably just wanted to be with their living family members and/or wanted to prevent said family members from being killed on really sketchy grounds. You're in the act of defending a completely totalitarian state that not only prevented freedom of movement but also enforced estrangement between families and loved ones. Being under the Alliance's temporary protection also doesn't make Calia, Parqual, or anyone else involved actual members of the Alliance. That's not how citizenship works, not even in the fantasy setting of WoW. Calia's declaration also doesn't make her a member of the Alliance - she claimed the regency of Lordaeron, but as she herself wasn't a member of the Alliance at the time, it would make her potential state a neutral one as well. Needless to say, none of the involved parties at any point joined the Alliance, and only one of them had that explicit intent, and it wasn't Calia.

They're high officials, effectively the civilian leaders of the Undercity, defecting to said foreign hostile state. This is neither about freedom of movement nor about their families to any degree that matters in a state's decision to punish that conduct, but about the basic functions of the state to punish officials representing it who join a hostile power and then work against it. They didn't join the Alliance because they were perforated before they could physically reach the gates, not due to a lack of intent. They do so under the banner and per the claim of Calia who shouts out her name and tells them to go the Alliance to find protection. They don't need to receive citizenship to defect to a foreign power and to then work against the state they have an allegiance to, that's ridiculous. They wished to do it, they began doing it and they were shot down before they could reach their objective. If I start swinging a knife at someone with the intent to kill them but a cop caps me in the head before I can finish the act, then that doesn't mean I'm not an attempted murderer or that the at was somehow disproportionate because the authorities didn't wait for me to get to the point.

As for there not being a trial, obviously not, they were escaping outside of her jurisdiction and quite obviously Sylvanas was motivated by Calia being there, that's the whole point - they are defecting high officials who explicitly leave after someone who's a claimant to the very throne they are loyal to announces that claim loudly and then urges them to move to where a hostile miltiary power that recently attacked their state's leader and armed forces is set up. This strengthens the reasoning for the decision to execute them on the spot. It would actually be marginally more defensible if there was no Calia and they tried to find asylum since you could then at least claim (though still poorly) that they were seeking political asylum and they wouldn't implicitly also be joining a rival claimant. No state with any intent to retain its legitimacy would go through extradition proceedings or have them present their points in writing after the fact. It can and would move to seize/punish them immediately as Sylvanas does.

As for the numbers, we know how many there are - 12 people, and we know one is innocent, re @Lorgar Aurelian, Calia loudly proclaims how "everyone is defecting" and the paragraph you indicate is after the horn has already sounded. Calia describes how they're heading for the gates and Sylvanas later comments in her own mind how are some are coming back after the horn after previously heading up, i.e there's zero way to confirm they didn't just stop halfway when they realized they couldn't physically complete the defection.

[Zuben]

She was pivotal in removing the blight from the Undercity, making it inhabitable again. Sure, another character could theoretically have taken up that mantle, but that's not the story Blizzard chose to write.

Besides, she was originally Lorderanean and was not responsible for what happened to the Forsaken. She's also undead, originally killed by Sylvanas while trying to help the Forsaken unite with their families living in Stormwind.

She's explicitly NOT trying to claim any throne and has only ever attempted to assist the Forsaken. I really don't get the hate this character receives, besides from people who outright want Forsaken to "remain" evil.

The hate is probably mostly leftover from the time period when it was unclear what Calia's role in the Forsaken would be, but appeared like she would become the next leader (things like the title of "The Pallid Lady" etc.). That perception didn't vibe with what Forsaken players liked about their faction, it felt like a contrast to Sylvanas was forced on them, made worse by Calia's warm affiliation to Alliance's leadership and the nature of her undeath being different to that of the Forsaken.

Now Calia seems to have a more reasonable role, something akin to a... let's say a charity worker in a foreign nation, who might come to be accepted by the native population over time as she dedicates her life for their benefit (she may be Lordaeronian originally, but that's different to what the Forsaken are). Her relationships and nature don't matter in that role, so I no longer see a reason to hate her.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's just your interpretation. You have never really grasped that first-person narration of in-universe characters is subjective, not objective. There is no good reason for anyone to think this wasn't an attempted defection.

It’s not my interpretation it’s a fact of the novel, you have never touched any wow novels so kindly sod off.

“It’s over,” he whispered, and leaned on the parapet. “Get them to safety before it’s too late!”
On the field below, spread out like markers in the map room, were other tiny figures. Some of them were heading back toward Thoradin’s Wall. Some were returning to the keep.
And some still stood in the field as if paralyzed.
The pain wasn’t abating, and Anduin clenched his jaw against it as he looked back at the wall. He forced his fisted hands to open and lifted the spyglass.
His mind saw things with a strange, swift clarity, and he immediately picked out Archbishop Faol and Calia. The former was close to the wall, urging his charges to rush through the gates to safety. But Calia stayed in the field, arguing with Elsie Benton. The priestess’s hood was down.
Calia...what are you doing?
Calia turned away from the Prime Governor, ran forward a few paces, cupped her hands around her mouth, and shouted, “Forsaken! I am Calia Menethil! Head for the keep!”

What is that girl doing?” shouted Genn.
But Anduin was not listening. His gaze was riveted on the pair of women in the field, one human, one Forsaken, and at that moment Elsie Benton dropped like a stone with a black-fletched arrow protruding from her chest.
Calia turned back toward Elsie, but she was too late. A look of horror was on her face, but there was nothing she could do now for the murdered Prime Governor. Calia shouted again, “To the keep! Run!”
Anduin jerked back, his mind reeling. Now he saw that everyone, humans and Forsaken both, had broken into a run.
Sylvanas had moved to the offensive, just like that. Right under their watchful eyes.

[Ameonna]

Yeah right, lets keep the legit leader of the Lordaeron people from leading the legit citizens of Lordaeron...makes total sense.

Seriously bro, Calia is a good character, she was introduced to the Lore before even Arthas was, (yup in the Day of the Dragon Novel which came out before war3) she is a very good fresh air for the Forsaken.

To me its time for the Forsaken (the race as much as the playerbase) to stop being freaking 13y old emo goth and actually move forward into re-being the citizens of Lordaeron they always were!

- - - Updated - - -

Argument is in the title. It was a bad move to give an alliance character any kind of power in the new forsaken government.

Ho and, remind me what faction Sylvanas and the "Forsaken" were when they were alive? Ho right ALLIANCE! Thanks.

[Aucald]

They're high officials, effectively the civilian leaders of the Undercity, defecting to said foreign hostile state. This is neither about freedom of movement nor about their families, but about the basic functions of the state to punish officials representing it who join a hostile power and then work against it. They didn't join the Alliance because they were perforated before they could physically reach the gates, not due to a lack of intent. They do so under the banner and per the claim of Calia who shouts out her name and tells them to go the Alliance to find protection. They don't need to receive citizenship to defect to a foreign power and to then work against the state they have an allegiance to, that's ridiculous. They wished to do it, they began doing it and they were shot down before they could reach their objective. If I start swinging a knife at someone with the intent to kill them but a cop caps me in the head before I can finish the act, then that doesn't mean I'm not an attempted murderer or that the at was somehow disproportionate because the authorities didn't wait for me to get to the point.

They're high officials in what sense? The original Desolate Council was a completely civilian organization set up in light of Sylvanas' continued absence from the Undercity, due to the fact that without her cult of personality-centered autocratic governance, nothing was really getting done. The Desolate Council was never elected or invested with any form of political power, never recognized by Sylvanas as any kind of legitimate body that would serve as a check on her power. In point of fact, every member of the Desolate Council was just a private Forsaken citizen, with all the political power of a neighborhood watch organization They weren't government officials in high standing, and they didn't represent a congress, ministry, or government body in any sense. I also didn't say they needed citizenship to defect, I said defecting didn't make them Alliance citizens - that's the mistaken assumption I was addressing, to begin with. Your knife analogy is inherently flawed because you're assuming knowledge of intent - knowledge that Sylvanas didn't have at the time she started slaying everyone in sight. It would be more akin to someone having a knife in their hand, perhaps threatening another individual, perhaps not; and then the cops shoot both individuals as well as everyone else in the nearby vicinity because... reasons. Sure, a few people were actually going to defect - but she killed everyone still on the field, including people who never going to defect. There's no way for you to square this up as justified in my eyes. Especially when we already know Sylvanas herself wasn't motivated by a possible defection, but simply by the existence of Calia herself, who she wanted dead.

As for there not being a trial, obviously not, they were escaping outside of her jurisdiction and quite obviously Sylvanas was motivated by Calia being there, that's the whole point - they are defecting high officials who explicitly leave after someone who's a claimant to the very throne they are loyal to announces that claim loudly and then urges them to move to where a hostile miltiary power that recently attacked their state's leader and armed forces is set up. No state with any intent to retain its legitimacy would go through extradition proceedings or have them present their points in writing after the fact. It can and would move to seize/punish them immediately as Sylvanas does.

5 people were "escaping outside her jurisdiction," and they were just random civilians with no state secrets or political sway of any kind. Calia wasn't a member of the Forsaken and can't commit treason against it, to begin with, nor did she as a single person represent a "hostile military power" considering she wasn't there as a dignitary of the Alliance and wasn't a member of the Alliance at all. She represented the Conclave and spoke only for herself. Sylvanas knew that, too; and didn't care - she just wanted to end a potential political threat. Trying to squeeze Sylvanas through the narrow eye of justification here is, in my view, in really bad taste.

As for the numbers, we know how many there are - 12 people, and we know one is innocent, re Lorgar Aurelian, Calia loudly proclaims how "everyone is defecting" and the paragraph you indicate is after the horn has already sounded. Calia describes how they're heading for the gates and Sylvanas later comments in her own mind how are some are coming back after the horn after previously heading up, i.e there's zero way to confirm they didn't just stop halfway when they realized they couldn't physically defect.

Only five Forsaken can be positively identified as defectors - Parqual Fintellas himself, the three Felstone siblings, and perhaps Tomas Gray. The other 7 are completely innocent, and of those, we know one was a confirmed loyalist who died in any case. And that's assuming the number of gravestones in Arathi, most of which are unlabeled and unnamed, actually represent the true sum of Forsaken dead in the massacre. Calia's proclamations change nothing of the actual number of intended defectors. That Sylvanas herself recognized not everyone was actually defecting and slaughtered them all regardless fundamentally belies your assertions and completely undermines your argument.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As for the numbers, we know how many there are - 12 people, and we know one is innocent, re @Lorgar Aurelian, Calia loudly proclaims how "everyone is defecting" and the paragraph you indicate is after the horn has already sounded. Calia describes how they're heading for the gates and Sylvanas later comments in her own mind how are some are coming back after the horn after previously heading up, i.e there's zero way to confirm they didn't just stop halfway when they realized they couldn't physically complete the defection.

The horn goes off in the same paragraph, there is no time between its sounding and the forsaken heading back it’s just first mentioned from a different perspective.

Anduin heard the sound of the horn. Baffled, he looked down, trying to ascertain what had caused it. As far as he could see, nothing had

changed from a moment—
He pressed his lips closed to prevent a groan from escaping. There was sudden deep, dull pain inside him.
“What’s wrong, son?” Genn asked sharply.
“It is the bell,” Velen said somberly, sadly. Turalyon looked confused, but Greymane’s face went hard. He knew about the bell. About the warning it meant to his young king.
“The retreat,” Anduin managed, grimacing as the pain increased. “It’s dangerous.” A second pain struck Anduin, different but even more devastating to him. For this was not the bone-hurting ache of the Divine Bell’s handiwork but the knife-sharp pain of a dream shattering before his eyes. With a sick jolt, Anduin saw that the tiny figures who had stood at attention on Thoradin’s Wall were now mounted on bats and flying toward the field.
Dark rangers.

We also know that Calia doesn’t know what ever one on the field is doing as she only sees a few forsaken talking before they come to her to defect,

There was Osric, talking to his friend Tomas. Over there, two sisters were reunited. There was Ol’ Emma, whom Calia had healed, looking ten years younger as she smiled at her children. And Parqual and Philia were coming to join them. They spoke for a few moments; Calia was too far away to hear what they said.
Parqual said something to his daughter, then headed alone toward Calia. She felt a flicker of concern; he shouldn’t be approaching her like this. No one was supposed to know that she and Parqual knew each other. Loudly, he said, “Priestess...may this Forsaken have your blessing?”
“Of course,” she replied.
He bent his head, whispering to her, “We need you now. It’s time.” “Wh-what?”
“You’ll see. Be ready.”

Even when she mentions the defectors she does so in a way that could very well mean she’s only talking about the group she saw even indicating said group.

Come walk with me. Parqual, the Felstones, all the others—see them? They’re defecting. Anduin will shelter and protect you all; I know he will!

And as the post I posted above shows Calia had to call out to the other forsaken who Anduin already saw heeding the horn and heading back before things went to crap and even then they weren’t defecting they were heading back to Sylvanas as you mentioned.

At the very best you can say 5 we’re defecting 1 was ignoring the horn to talk to Calia and 6 were either loyal or undecided as the ones frozen in the field.

[Super Dickmann]

They're high officials in what sense? The original Desolate Council was a completely civilian organization set up in light of Sylvanas' continued absence from the Undercity, due to the fact that without her cult of personality-centered autocratic governance, nothing was really getting done. The Desolate Council was never elected or invested with any form of political power, never recognized by Sylvanas as any kind of legitimate body that would serve as a check on her power. In point of fact, every member of the Desolate Council was just a private Forsaken citizen, with all the political power of a neighborhood watch organization They weren't government officials in high standing, and they didn't represent a congress, ministry, or government body in any sense. I also didn't say they needed citizenship to defect, I said defecting didn't make them Alliance citizens - that's the mistaken assumption I was addressing, to begin with. Your knife analogy is inherently flawed because you're assuming knowledge of intent - knowledge that Sylvanas didn't have at the time she started slaying everyone in sight. It would be more akin to someone having a knife in their hand, perhaps threatening another individual, perhaps not; and then the cops shoot both individuals as well as everyone else in the nearby vicinity because... reasons. Sure, a few people were actually going to defect - but she killed everyone still on the field, including people who never going to defect. There's no way for you to square this up as justified in my eyes. Especially when we already know Sylvanas herself wasn't motivated by a possible defection, but simply by the existence of Calia herself, who she wanted dead.

They were the functional administrative body for at least several months of the capital city of the state they had their allegiance to. Now, you could make the point that neither Sylvanas nor the Executors or any of the actual chain of command invested them with power, which is good thinking! She could've skipped the whole business and punished them for exercising authority they didn't possess instead. But they were plainly recognized in their claimed function by both Sylvanas in having them be the representatives, the foreign power they were defecting to in the Alliance and Calia herself. No one there considered them to be just regulars. The knife analogy addresses the whole bit about a trial - there's no point for a trial when an act is immediately physically verifiable and the consequences of the act are obviously legally averse. The cop isn't mandated to wait for you to kill someone, the state doesn't have to wait for you to physically defect to a hostile state and hence leave the jurisdiction where you are even able to enforce your laws to punish you. The defection and the existence of Calia aren't separate elements - they are intimately connected. The defection would be punishable (as treason, death penalty/life imprisonment, natch) but be more defensible supposing they were doing so in their capacity as civilians, punishing their defection becomes far more pressing when they do so explicitly under the banner of a claimant to the same state they owe their allegiance to, who, we know ,was both encouraging them to defect (Calia to Elsie) and was being encouraged for a leadership position (Parqual to Calia). It's a ridiculous standard even from a real life perspective to claim that Sylvanas would have to go through the rigamarole of verifying physically demonstrable reality to receive permission to punish what would have been a government in exile aiming to topple her state and supported by an enemy superpower that had again, attacked her forces and tried to kill her in a war with Satan just a year ago.

As for Calia, obviously she isn't being killed for treason, she's being killed because she loudly proclaimed a call to have said high oficials defect during a peace summit at the top of her lungs to the person she'd implicitly be trying to overthrow. If you want to reframe it, you can say that Sylvanas had a eugenic motive, wishing to save the human race from someone this retarded having (more) children. No state in the world would let someone in that circumstance live unless they want to commit poltiical (and literal) suicide.

As for the others, Calia tells you outright:

“Come walk with me. Parqual, the Felstones, all the others—see them? They’re defecting. Anduin will shelter and protect you all; I know he will!”

Now, Calia could be wrong, but we know that when the horn sounds that some people kept sprinting for the walls and some have headed back. We also know that those heading back only do so after the horn has been sounding, turning away from their trajectory towards the keep - i.e defection. Sylvanas doesn't acknowledge that some of them weren't defecting, what she acknowledges is that some might have changed their mind and turned around after the horn had sounded and that such people were unreliable, which is obviously true.

- - - Updated - - -

The horn goes off in the same paragraph, there is no time between its sounding and the forsaken heading back it’s just first mentioned from a different perspective.

No, the horn goes off as Sylvanas checks who's defecting. Then, someone shows up to tell Sylvanas that Calia is on the field:

The priestess had said something to Vellcinda that had the Prime Governor agitated. No one else on the field seemed to notice. They were too busy taking strolls with their loved ones.

And that was it.

“They’re defecting,” Sylvanas snapped.

Nathanos was instantly alert, scanning the field with his spyglass. “Several of them are moving in the direction of Stromgarde Keep,” he confirmed, “but that may not be intentional.”

“Let’s find out,” Sylvanas said. She lifted the horn to her lips and blew three long, clear notes.

Now to see who comes when called—and who breaks and runs.

At that moment, one of the priests returned, urging her bat to go as quickly as it could. She looked shocked and sickened.

“My lady!” she gasped. “The priestess—I didn’t recognize her until her hood fell off—I can scarce believe it—”

“Spit it out,” Sylvanas snarled, her body taut as a bowstring.

“My lady—it’s Calia Menethil!”

Menethil.

The name was laden, heavy with meaning and portent. It was the name of the monster who had made her. Who had slaughtered and destroyed. It was the name of the king who had ruled Lordaeron. And it was the name of that king’s daughter—his heir.

And to think she had thought the king of Stormwind an ingenuous fool. He played politics better than she could possibly have imagined.Anduin Wrynn had brought a usurper with him. And now, that girl, that damned human child who ought to be long dead, was taking Sylvanas’s own people to join the Alliance.

Further, we know that Sylvanas considers the situation to be as described - that Anduin had arranged defections through a proxy. Where Sylvanas (and basic logic) are concerned, Calia being the one to urge people to defect, first in disguise and later as we see openly, and them defecting to the Alliance form a single cohesive event.

After this point, Anduin reacts to the horn, Calia is still talking to Elsie and urging her to defect saying "everyone" is leaving, which given she spoke to all of them she's a decent authority on and the horn sounds as Elsie rejects her. Then, moments later, they get shot.

[Aucald]

They were the functional administrative body for at least several months of the capital city of the state they had their allegiance to. Now, you could make the point that neither Sylvanas nor the Executors or any of the actual chain of command invested them with power, which is good thinking! She could've skipped the whole business and punished them for exercising authority they didn't possess instead. But they were plainly recognized in their claimed function by both Sylvanas in having them be the representatives, the foreign power they were defecting to in the Alliance and Calia herself. No one there considered them to be just regulars. The knife analogy addresses the whole bit about a trial - there's no point for a trial when an act is immediately physically verifiable and the consequences of the act are obviously legally averse. The cop isn't mandated to wait for you to kill someone, the state doesn't have to wait for you to physically defect to a hostile state and hence leave the jurisdiction where you are even able to enforce your laws to punish you. The defection and the existence of Calia aren't separate elements - they are intimately connected. The defection would be punishable (as treason, death penalty/life imprisonment, natch) but be more defensible supposing they were doing so in their capacity as civilians, punishing their defection becomes far more pressing when they do so explicitly under the banner of a claimant to the same state they owe their allegiance to, who, we know ,was both encouraging them to defect (Calia to Elsie) and was being encouraged for a leadership position (Parqual to Calia). It's a ridiculous standard even from a real life perspective to claim that Sylvanas would have to go through the rigamarole of verifying physically demonstrable reality to receive permission to punish what would have been a government in exile aiming to topple her state and supported by an enemy superpower that had again, attacked her forces and tried to kill her in a war with Satan just a year ago.

Emphasis on "functional," and I'm glad you at least admit they had no actual political power, and thus weren't at all "high officials" as you previously claimed. Sylvanas actually did want to kill them all initially for having the temerity to even implicitly oppose her rule, tyrant that she is, but Nathanos actually stayed her hand initially out of a healthy awareness of the bad optics. They were representatives of the Forsaken solely in the context of the Gathering itself, and they were actually the only ones in that regard, either. Having zero political power, and zero awareness of state secrets or military assets, their possible defection to the Alliance would've represented zero loss to the Forsaken in other terms. Also, back in the real world, last time I checked extrajudicial murder wasn't the go-to answer to any form of violence one sees - I mean I can see how you'd be mistaken there, given the givens, but gunning people down for the merest presumption of hostility isn't how justice actually works. Not to mention your analogy was flawed on its face since that's not what Sylvanas did, not even close. Murdering everyone involved in said possible instance of violence is what she actually did, victim and perpetrator alike. And no, I don't think it's a step too far, or even in "rigamarole" status, for Sylvanas to use her Dark Rangers to round up the Forsaken participants of the Gathering and ship them all back to the Undercity for trial. She could at least then identify actual perpetrators and complete innocents, probably making herself look better in the process. Of course, with the luxury of hindsight, we now know Sylvanas couldn't have given less of a shit about PR, optics, or her stewardship of her professed people. But I'm trying to address the plot of the Gathering without said luxury.

As for Calia, obviously she isn't being killed for treason, she's being killed because she loudly proclaimed a call to have said high oficials defect during a peace summit at the top of her lungs to the person she'd implicitly be trying to overthrow. If you want to make it look bad, you can say that Sylvanas had a eugenic motive, wishing to save the human race from someone this retarded having (more) children. No state in the world would let someone in that circumstance live unless they want to commit poltiical (and literal) suicide.

As for the others, Calia tells you outright:

Now, Calia could be wrong, but we know that when the horn sounds that some people kept sprinting for the walls and some have headed back. We also know that those heading back only do so after the horn has been sounding, turning away from their trajectory towards the keep - i.e defection. Sylvanas doesn't acknowledge that some of them weren't defecting, what she acknowledges is that some might have changed their mind and turned around after the horn had sounded and that such people were unreliable, which is obviously true.

They weren't high officials, again. They're just plain old Forsaken citizens, civilians insofar as that goes. I'd actually say it would be more justified for Sylvanas to kill Calia herself than to have killed *everyone* in sight - at least there she had a direct motive and even something approaching an understandable rationale. As a completely neutral and unaligned party, though, Calia's stupidity in this equation doesn't actually matter all that much. We also know that at least one of them was definitely not defecting, and in fact, declared herself loyal to Sylvanas, and she was murdered in any case without any hesitation on Sylvanas' part. So, again, you're left with the unenviable position of defending a complete tyrant who A.) didn't have a full picture of what was occurring, B.) saw that the defection wasn't complete and/or was in question, and then C.) murdered everyone anyways. Good luck with that.

[Super Dickmann]

Emphasis on "functional," and I'm glad you at least admit they had no actual political power, and thus weren't at all "high officials" as you previously claimed. Sylvanas actually did want to kill them all initially for having the temerity to even implicitly oppose her rule, tyrant that she is, but Nathanos actually stayed her hand initially out of a healthy awareness of the bad optics. They were representatives of the Forsaken solely in the context of the Gathering itself, and they were actually the only ones in that regard, either. Having zero political power, and zero awareness of state secrets or military assets, their possible defection to the Alliance would've represented zero loss to the Forsaken in other terms. Also, back in the real world, last time I checked extrajudicial murder wasn't the go-to answer to any form of violence one sees - I mean I can see how you'd be mistaken there, given the givens, but gunning people down for the merest presumption of hostility isn't how justice actually works. Not to mention your analogy was flawed on its face since that's not what Sylvanas did, not even close. Murdering everyone involved in said possible instance of violence is what she actually did, victim and perpetrator alike. And no, I don't think it's a step too far, or even in "rigamarole" status, for Sylvanas to use her Dark Rangers to round up the Forsaken participants of the Gathering and ship them all back to the Undercity for trial. She could at least then identify actual perpetrators and complete innocents, probably making herself look better in the process. Of course, with the luxury of hindsight, we now know Sylvanas couldn't have given less of a shit about PR, optics, or her stewardship of her professed people. But I'm trying to address the plot of the Gathering without said luxury.

If you want to argue that running the capital city with all its adjoining elements for a year doesn't predispose someone towards any kind of administrative, military or economic insight or that the treatment as being state representatives by both your actual head of state for the purposes of the Gathering, the leader of the opposing superpower they were trying to defect to and Calia herself, you're free to take that uphill jog, more power to you. I also don't think they were any loss of the Forsaken, but only on a meta sense in that they were plot tools used for an abysmal storyline, in the actual setting their relevance, both functional to the state and as its symbolic, identifiable representatives who's defection would have weight is readily obvious. The successor government names itself after them. Going on about murder is certainly very emotive, but the state isn't murdering you when it defends either its basic criminal justice functions or its basic functions of legitimacy. We know from Sylvanas's own mind that she considered this to be a plot by Anduin to use Calia as a patsy to get the Council to defect, something she only gives up after the act is already done as she's truck by the purity of Our Treasure. We know from a bird's eye view again, that at least a third and more likely everyone except Elsie was in the process of bailing at the time the horns were sounded, based on Calia's testimony. We are not arguing about ambiguities subject to some hidden knowledge, we, as the readers, know the responsibility of those involved, in fact, we know it better than the characters.

They weren't high officials, again. They're just plain old Forsaken citizens, civilians insofar as that goes. I'd actually say it would be more justified for Sylvanas to kill Calia herself than to have killed *everyone* in sight - at least there she had a direct motive and even something approaching an understandable rationale. As a completely neutral and unaligned party, though, Calia's stupidity in this equation doesn't actually matter all that much. We also know that at least one of them was definitely not defecting, and in fact, declared herself loyal to Sylvanas, and she was murdered in any case without any hesitation on Sylvanas' part. So, again, you're left with the unenviable position of defending a complete tyrant who A.) didn't have a full picture of what was occurring, B.) saw that the defection wasn't complete and/or was in question, and then C.) murdered everyone anyways. Good luck with that.

Killing Calia is a given, I don't think even the sophists here would seriously belabour that point. I'm mostly arguing about the execution of the Council, and even there I'm being charitable by applying an excessively high real life modern standard to Sylvanas's actions. Quite obviously as Warchief of the Horde, she's in her authority to off them from the get-go, as Thrall and Garrosh both did before and as even argued by Baine during Garry's trial.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No, the horn goes off as Sylvanas checks who's defecting. Then, someone shows up to tell Sylvanas that Calia is on the field:

did you actually read that quote? It doesn’t back up that every one was defecting Nathanos even points that out and Sylvanas her self says she wants to see who is which we then see by the anduin section which takes place as she blows the horn as the quote above says.

“They’re defecting,” Sylvanas snapped.

Nathanos was instantly alert, scanning the field with his spyglass. “Several of them are moving in the direction of Stromgarde Keep,” he confirmed, “but that may not be intentional.”

“Let’s find out,” Sylvanas said. She lifted the horn to her lips and blew three long, clear notes.

Now to see who comes when called—and who breaks and runs.

After this point, Anduin reacts to the horn, Calia is still talking to Elsie and urging her to defect saying "everyone" is leaving, which given she spoke to all of them she's a decent authority on and the horn sounds as Elsie rejects her. Then, moments later, they get shot.

Calia does not speak to every one about defecting, there is no gap in time between her talking to Parqual and Elsie for her to get more opinions.

She whirled toward Elsie, her hood falling off with her movement. “Elsie, there’s something you must know. And I pray to the Light that has sent me here this day that you will understand—and support it.” She swallowed hard. “Support...me.”

end of section

in the center of the field, Elsie stared at the queen of Lordaeron. “It’s not possible,” she said. But she knew it was true. Calia had taken care to keep her face hidden in the shadow of her hood. But now the hood was gone and she had turned to look directly at Elsie, and Elsie could not look away.

start of section

A to the horn this is what happens on the field and the section I posted above is what anduin sees both of witch take place at the same time as the part you posted about Sylvanas wanting to see who was actually defecting before she changes her mind after hearing about Calia.

As if in response, the horn sounded three sharp blasts. Elsie turned her gray-green face back toward the wall and the Forsaken banner that had been unfurled.
“I’m sorry, Your Majesty,” Elsie said. “I can’t betray my queen. Not even for you.” She turned and shouted, “Retreat! Retreat!”

Which anduin hears at the same time.


So from Calia perspective we know 5 are defecting, from Anduin’s we know some are going back before arrows start to fly, and from Sylvanas we know several are defecting and she wants to know who isn’t.

So that’s still just 5 of 12 with 6 up in the air.

[Super Dickmann]

did you actually read that quote? It doesn’t back up that every one was defecting Nathanos even points that out and Sylvanas her self says she wants to see who is which we then see by the anduin section which takes place as she blows the horn as the quote above says.

Did you read the post you quoted? That's my point, she sees people are seemingly defecting, opts to test it after Nathanos tells her they're milling about. She sounds the horn, then the henchman tells her Calia is about.

The scenes you list happen in that order, quite obviously, the point is that Calia was already milling about the field prior. When she's trying to sway Elsie into defecting, she says, explicitly, that everyone is leaving:

“Come walk with me. Parqual, the Felstones, all the others—see them? They’re defecting. Anduin will shelter and protect you all; I know he will!”

Now, Calia could be wrong, but there's no reason to assume so and the framing later where Sylvanas comments on how some turned back, but they could just be returning out of fear supports that they were initially heading in that direction and that Calia is correct.

[Powerogue]

its same as with Jaina, she came to KT, admited to what everybody already knew that she got some of them killed, and then bcs she is sad about it - which nobody but her mother even knows - she is not only pardoned, but become "queen"... how the hell would KT people who lost their loved ones bcs of her be fine with such bulshitery?!

Because she did something incredibly heroic for all of them to see that proved she was sincere and had their best interests at heart?


Just for reference, the Calia buildup you're asking for is there, it's just scattered like they tend to do which can make it confusing for people who don't read all the different sources:

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Calia_Menethil

Legion: Introduced the character in the priest order hall, establish that she's abandoned concern for the throne and is just focused on helping people in need.

Before The Storm: she becomes concerned about the forsaken, tries to help them, but is murdered by Sylvanas and raised deliberately into undeath because she has accepted at least some members of the forsaken need her help. They asked her to lead them and died for it.

Shadows Rising: With no leader, the forsaken are struggling and Calia takes this opportunity to offer help once again, particularly helping Derek and the new dark rangers. With the Desolate Council dead and Sylvanas gone, Voss and Calia are the only ones who step up to speak for the forsaken interim in meetings. They're not leaders, but someone has to show up.

SL epilogue questline: Major members of the forsaken are meeting to try to figure out how to reclaim Lordaeron from the blight problem, each voicing why they put up with, but do not trust, Calia. As she volunteers to get the plague sample, she is jeered by Faranell and Belmont on the way out, but succeeds. Over the questline every single major criticism of her is addressed and everyone recognizes Calia as, at least, useful.

Forsaken heritage: I don't recall her playing a major role but the council is present and I don't get the impression that Calia made any major pushback against the Forsaken using their traditional methods to purge invaders from their lands.

[Aucald]

If you want to argue that running the capital city with all its adjoining elements for a year doesn't predispose someone towards any kind of administrative, military or economic insight or that the treatment as being state representatives by both your actual head of state for the purposes of the Gathering, the leader of the opposing superpower they were trying to defect to and Calia herself, you're free to take that uphill jog, more power to you. I also don't think they were any loss of the Forsaken, but only on a meta sense in that they were plot tools used for an abysmal storyline, in the actual setting their relevance, both functional to the state and as its symbolic, identifiable representatives who's defection would have weight is readily obvious. The successor government names itself after them. Going on about murder is certainly very emotive, but the state isn't murdering you when it defends either its basic criminal justice functions or its basic functions of legitimacy. We know from Sylvanas's own mind that she considered this to be a plot by Anduin to use Calia as a patsy to get the Council to defect, something she only gives up after the act is already done as she's truck by the purity of Our Treasure. We know from a bird's eye view again, that at least a third and more likely everyone except Elsie was in the process of bailing at the time the horns were sounded, based on Calia's testimony. We are not arguing about ambiguities subject to some hidden knowledge, we, as the readers, know the responsibility of those involved, in fact, we know it better than the characters.

Last time I checked, the local head of the neighborhood watch wasn't in contention for political office or in possession of state secrets. That's less an uphill jog and more a quick trip to the kitchen to grab a glass of water, all in all not what I'd call a strenuous rhetorical exercise. They left a legacy in their wake, no doubt, which is less a remark on their political power and more on the egregious excesses of Sylvanas and how the new actual ruling council wants to set itself apart from her less-than-sterling example of leadership. Calia was trying to exhort more people to defect, not delivering exposition as to how many people were defecting. The Gathering itself was in chaos at the time the Dark Rangers were called down to do their culling, so Sylvanas' thoughts were so much guesswork on her part. For our part, though, we know the numbers and the actual rationale of those involved in either defecting, being loyal, or completely undecided. Those facts do not bear up your case in any sense. Be as flippant and sarcastic as you like - the text itself underlines your errors.

Killing Calia is a given, I don't think even the sophists here would seriously belabour that point. I'm mostly arguing about the execution of the Council, and even there I'm being charitable by applying an excessively high real life modern standard to Sylvanas's actions. Quite obviously as Warchief of the Horde, she's in her authority to off them from the get-go, as Thrall and Garrosh both did before and as even argued by Baine during Garry's trial.

Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct. I'm not arguing that Sylvanas didn't have the power to do what she did - because that would obviously be nonsense to argue. I'm saying what she did is part and parcel of what makes her a monster as a person, and that maybe a full-throated defense of her isn't the best approach. As I said, YMMV as concerns your own moral compass.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Did you read the post you quoted? That's my point, she sees people are seemingly defecting, opts to test it after Nathanos tells her they're milling about. She sounds the horn, then the henchman tells her Calia is about.

She does see people defecting, and as is pointed out it is several of them not all of them which is then backed up by anduin when he sees some heading back to Sylvanas right after the horn is blown.

The scenes you list happen in that order, quite obviously, the point is that Calia was already milling about the field prior. When she's trying to sway Elsie into defecting, she says, explicitly, that everyone is leaving:

Calia was not talking to any one about defecting before Parqual approached her, she didn’t know any one had even thought of it before Parqual and she does not talk to any one else about it after Parqual.

We are in Calia’s head we know she knew nothing about the defection and we know exactly who she saw defecting, at best she’s taking a wild guess and saying every one when we know it isn’t true, at worse she indicating every ones in Parqual‘S group. Nothing in the book supports that she could know more then that and there is no time where she off screen where she could learn more.

Now, Calia could be wrong, but there's no reason to assume so and the framing later where Sylvanas comments on how some turned back, but they could just be returning out of fear supports that they were initially heading in that direction and that Calia is correct.

Sylvanas never mentions any turning back.

“My queen, what are you doing?”
Sylvanas heard the shock in her normally calm champion’s voice. She chose to overlook it. On the surface, what was unfolding below— the firing of arrows, the screams and pleas of the Desolate Council as they tasted their Last Deaths could seem perplexing and disturbing.
“The only thing I can do and still hang on to my kingdom as it is,” she said. “They were defecting.”
“Some were running back here, to safety,” he replied.
“They were,” she agreed. “But how much of that was fear? How tempted were they until that point?” She shook her head. “No, Nathanos. I cannot take the risk. The only Desolate Council members I trust are the ones who returned to me early on, broken and bitter. Truly Desolate. All the others...I cannot allow that sentiment, that hope, to grow. It is an infection ready to spread. I have to cut it out.”

all she mentions is that some could have been tempted but as we know from Anduin’s perspective they were already on there way back before they had any reason to fear.

So at best she killed loyalist so they wouldn’t think of defecting not because they actually were.

[Lolites]

Because she did something incredibly heroic for all of them to see that proved she was sincere and had their best interests at heart?

which i doubt is something regular kultirans know or even fully understand...
but even if so, she is still responsible for some of them loosing their family members, hell they made a song about it, somehow nobody even bringing that up after her "promotion" seems stupid as hell
then again, her ethnic purge of dalaran is barely mentioned either, so i guess she have pass on people dying bcs of her...

Just for reference, the Calia buildup you're asking for is there, it's just scattered

im aware of the buildup, and i still think its enough for her to be tolerated in UC, or to serve as connection with alliance, not enough for her to be in ruling body

i guess we just have to agree to disagree

[The Stormbringer]

I don't understand some of you. "The Forsaken were always evil, cruel, mean, and not nice!" Except for the ones that weren't...? You had people who were just trying to continue their lives as tailors or blacksmiths or whatever. You had a wizard so powerful he broke from the control of the Scourge and lived as a hermit because he thought the whole world was mindless undead. You had Forsaken leaving to go join the Argent Dawn and Argent Crusade to fight alongside the living willingly. You had Forsaken that wanted to reunite with their families and were hopeful for the future. You even had Forsaken wielding the Light to heal others despite the pain and suffering of existence it made them feel. They were people, and like all people, they came with different motivations, personalities, viewpoints, alignments, and more. Stop painting the Forsaken with one big monochrome brush of "grrr evil bad undead", will you?