Did Forsaken lore do a 180?

[Speaknoevil]

But what about competition? By making choices and prevailing against someone else, you inevitably cause harm. Also, chaos is destruction, and you need to destroy parasites - in all senses. Sometimes, you have to cause a ripple of chaos against yourself, to improve yourself and burn the unnecessary. Order is not good by intention, just in case; one can create harmful and, well, to put it simply, bad things (in all imaginable senses, take your pick). Intentional destruction can be benevolent.

Cutting away gangrene, cauterizing a wound, this is self preservation.

Obviously not evil.

We're arguing semantics for no reason, clearly you understand the concept of what I'm saying.

PS: Destruction can be chaotic, is not always.

[Deleted]

Like I already said, awareness attempting to create entropy is evil.

The previously stated action taken by the hypothetical man was in the effort to retain order, with virtuous intent.



Light is not a shadow because it causes a shadow to be cast, and that is what you're implying.

are we talking about WoW chaos, or real moral chaos

in WoW, good, evil,chaos,and law are the points on the "moral compass" you can be lawful evil by destroying things in a logical way, like a lawyer, or chaotic evil by burning things to the ground

this is a simple guide :P

[Haven]

think of forum trolls, now imagine one of them trying to wrap their neuron around the concept of grey morality, now laugh, it's fun seeing trolls hurt themselves :P

That's Havens fucking power of derailing a thread, ANY thread to a discussion on what is good or evil by making posts that are several miles long.

Havens fucking power

I just love the sound of it. A lot!

But really, all things boil down to that, you can't have a discussion without a deconstruction, and everything ends up with people simply being different and having different standarts in the fundamental matters of morality and one's perception of the world and human motivations. I like it; I like to make people think about what they are and what matters to them. My small attempt at being a Zen teacher.

[Deleted]

well if you were Malkavian it would make perfect sense

It makes sense to me, but not Chaos :P

[Combatbutler]

I just love the sound of it. A lot!

But really, all things boil down to that, you can't ave a iscussion without a deconstruction, and everything ens up with people simply being different and having different standarts in the fundamental matters of morality and one's perception of the world and human motivations. I like it; I like to make people think about what they are and what matters to them. My small attempt at being a Zen teacher.

Amen to that

---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 01:13 AM ----------

It makes sense to me, but not Chaos :P

Order is an illusion if you think about it really hard

[GeorgeParty]

But you cannot order chaos because in order is potential chaos and to order chaos you have to understand chaos but to understand chaos your ordered mind has to become chaos so the order you create is in reality chaos

brain hurts...

[AedanWolfe]

Why there are still people who can't allow a morally questionable playable faction?

I wanted to play undead for following reasons:

1st. i found bone parts and overall looks nice
2nd. After some lore studies i started loving apotecathry aspect of Forsaken
3rd. they are morally questionable faction and now i like them even more because of this

thats more blizzards fault or maybe there writers as far as wow is concerned.

when i looked up horde the first time, in no place did i feel that they were evil, or morally questionable (from a wow standpoint), if anything they were painted as the underdog.

my first character was also a tauren, while no race can claim absolute purity, tauren are in the top 3 of this games benevelent races.

now im supposed to swallow that im a bad guy?

I think thats peoples reactions who get upset over it.

oh, and trolls of course.

just please dont tell me to reroll alliance, i cannot stand alliance lore ingame, i hate its zones, and i hate humans/draenei with a white hot passion lol.

[Haven]

well if you were Malkavian it would make perfect sense

What doesn't make sense for Malkavian anyway?

Cutting away gangrene, cauterizing a wound, this is self preservation.

Obviously not evil.

We're arguing semantics for no reason, clearly you understand the concept of what I'm saying.

PS: Destruction can be chaotic, is not always.

Destruction by its nature is chaotic. It's in the physical meaning of the term. Even if it's an interim step, it is still intentional creation of chaos. Of course, life itself is a thing of order and a pretty complicated one, so if we're to benefit ourselves, end result of any sane rational action is aimed towars increasing order. We're not supposed to be talking about end results here, because no sane person aims towards chaos, everyone has a rational reason that benefits him in some way. It's not about the ends, it's about the means. And means can be both chaotic and ordered while serving appropriate cause.

[Combatbutler]

thats more blizzards fault or maybe there writers as far as wow is concerned.

when i looked up horde the first time, in no place did i feel that they were evil, or morally questionable (from a wow standpoint), if anything they were painted as the underdog.

my first character was also a tauren, while no race can claim absolute purity, tauren are in the top 3 of this games benevelent races.

now im supposed to swallow that im a bad guy?

I think thats peoples reactions who get upset over it.

oh, and trolls of course.

just please dont tell me to reroll alliance, i cannot stand alliance lore ingame, i hate its zones, and i hate humans/draenei with a white hot passion lol.

The alliance is right in this war but so is the Horde both have their legitimate reason to beat the crap out of each other

Waht doesn't make sense for Malkavian anyway?

Everything makes sense to them because they can see the fabric of the universe but the downside is you are utterly insane but damn are Malkavians awesome only second to the Tremere

[Speaknoevil]

Waht doesn't make sense for Malkavian anyway?

Destruction by its nature is chaotic. It's in the physical meaning of the term. Even if it's an interim step, it is still intentional creation of chaos. Of course, life itself is a thing of order and a pretty complicated one, so if we're to benefit ourselves, end result of any sane rational action is aimed towars increasing order. We're not supposed to be talking about end results here, because no sane person aims towards chaos, everyone has a rational reason that benefits him in some way. It's not about the ends, it's about the means. And means can be both chaotic and ordered while serving appropriate cause.

So we agree.

When chaos is applied to create order, it then ceases to be chaos.

[Combatbutler]

So we agree.

When chaos is applied to create order, it then ceases to be chaos.

But in every order lies the seed of chaos

[Deleted]

Waht doesn't make sense for Malkavian anyway?

Destruction by its nature is chaotic. It's in the physical meaning of the term. Even if it's an interim step, it is still intentional creation of chaos. Of course, life itself is a thing of order and a pretty complicated one, so if we're to benefit ourselves, end result of any sane rational action is aimed towars increasing order. We're not supposed to be talking about end results here, because no sane person aims towards chaos, everyone has a rational reason that benefits him in some way. It's not about the ends, it's about the means. And means can be both chaotic and ordered while serving appropriate cause.

life is anything BUT ordered :P
we have SO many freely moving parts, our blood is liquid and therefore incredibly chaotic, and that's on a relatively large level, our existance changes so many things in such random ways.
life is quite possibly the most chaotic thing there is, except maybe the universe itself


again, order and chaos seem to be a grey thing, it depends on intent

to bring back my argument from before, if a paladin saves someone on orders from his king, is it chaos? you say no.
if the king wants the rescued person for the purpose of causing chaos, was the paladin causing chaos? even if he has no intent? in which case, is he an evil paladin?

it's another compex moral thing

[Speaknoevil]

But in every order lies the seed of chaos

Light is not shadow because it can cause a shadow to be cast.

[Combatbutler]

Light is not shadow because it causes a shadow to be cast.

but light cannot exist without a shadow because you need balance (balance != Order)

[Deleted]

Light is not shadow because it can cause a shadow to be cast.

darkness cannot exist without light, but if there was no darkness, how would we recognize the light?

[Talen]

Humans engaged in it looooooong before Forsaken even existed. All the living have.

But not as a matter of state policy. Murder is, by and large, something most societies frown upon. The Forsaken see nothing wrong with taking a living, breathing human beign and seeing how much to his body they can cut up while he's still alive.

What we consider evil as a society is the norm for the Forsaken.

EJL

[swissaccount]

sylvanas is the most interesting horde character imo. thrall is overrated and fake, but sylvanas is unique because her true motives are unknown to the horde, except for some hints of distrust

the forsaken hates the living... that's never gonna change

[Combatbutler]

But not as a matter of state policy. Murder is, by and large, something most societies frown upon. The Forsaken see nothing wrong with taking a living, breathing human beign and seeing how much to his body they can cut up while he's still alive.

What we consider evil as a society is the norm for the Forsaken.

EJL

Because they see humans the same way as humans view them pests

[Haven]

Everything makes sense to them because they can see the fabric of the universe but the downside is you are utterly insane but damn are Malkavians awesome only second to the Tremere

You're talking to the man that played through VtMB four times (gangrel, malkavian, tremere, nosferatu) and spent hours on vampire wiki

So we agree.

When chaos is applied to create order, it then ceases to be chaos.

I prefer to still call it chaos. I like to accentuate the balance of things. In a broader sense, it applies to violence, self-destruction, negativity, aggression and such; despite that we may not entirely like them, we need them and use them. Keeping track of balance helps preserve self-control and not get engulfed in self-righteousness. One of the principles of Zen Buddhism is that revulsion is a poison of mind; branding something as "evil" or "negative" leads to rigid thinking.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

The Forsaken kill a human "ZOMG...they are murdererz!"

The Humans kill a Forsaken "it's cool Broseph... He had it coming"