DW Frost 4.0.6 Spec

[liquidrage]

So Consider isn't updating the EJ threads till later this evening.

In the mean time it looks like the new frost build may be:
http://wowtal.com/#k=J0LWs0p.aei.deathknight.XTTog

Obviously row 2 of frost has 2 points you use how you see fit or based on encounter.
AoE heavy fights IT Glyph instead of OB. Glyph of Dark Succor takes up a spot in the craptastic Major glyphs.

Thoughts?

[Mufasaprime]

id go more this spec since from what i have experiance, imrpoved frost presence is terrible since you should always be in unholy presence

http://wowtal.com/#k=ewA7K92i.aei.deathknight.

[Direknyte]

id go more this spec since from what i have experiance, imrpoved frost presence is terrible since you should always be in unholy presence

http://wowtal.com/#k=ewA7K92i.aei.deathknight.

Of course, he did say DW build... >.>

[Mufasaprime]

Of course, he did say DW build... >.>

ah, well then, same idea, just move the talents over from 2hander speciality to DW, and my spec was more pvp

[Findus707]

id go more this spec since from what i have experiance, imrpoved frost presence is terrible since you should always be in unholy presence

http://wowtal.com/#k=ewA7K92i.aei.deathknight.

DW frost, not 2H
And that is a... part PvP specc ?

[Mufasaprime]

DW frost, not 2H
And that is a... part PvP specc ?

yeah check the post above you

[kalathoran]

i saw some posts on EJ stating that on simulators dw frost was actually performing better in unholy presence, im assuming that the increased haste for more KM procs and faster rune cooldowns for more obliterates could make up for it. havent tested it personally, but id love to hear/see some numbers if anyone has crunched/live tested.

as a second note, ive been dying to see if w/ the 12% bonus to weapon attacks that 2h is getting if it has pulled ahead of the dw build yet

[BlackS0ull]

Hello all,

With the new patch I should change the current talent tree that I have, by remove the 2 points from Improve Blood Tap and the 1 point from On a Pale Horse and put them all 3 points on Virulence,

but the problem is ... to change also to unholy presence, because now I'm DW on frost, on Frost Presence.

What are your recommendations ? to change to Unholy Presence ?

[Kwontanamo]

I've noticed the same thing as kalathoran, but I'm too afraid of change to test it out in a raid until Consider posts something. I've tried various setups and 2h Frost never seems quite on par with DW, regardless of presence.

[liquidrage]

To give an example:

Night before the patch I did Arg and hit 16.7 dps

Using the above spec and in frost presence last I did Arg again and hit 17.5 dps

RNG wasn't any better second time around. And that's actually including my daybreaker helm was nerfed quite a bit (though still better then 346 helms so still wearing it).

The DPS gain was all disease dmg and not a single HB missed. I doubt Unholy presence is better, but hey, if the maths bear it out who am I to argue? That would be the best thing for us since we're still apparently trailing Unholy buy a tiny bit and if we were to use Unholy presence I imagine Blizzard might boost it a tad since I doubt they want frost dw in unoly presence.

[Nikkaszal]

I'm still running exactly the same spec as pre-patch.

2/2 Imp Blood Tap, 3/3 Epidemic (no Virulence), 2/2 Endless Winter.

Nothing will ever take my free interrupts away from me.

[Shirosaki]

I'm still on the fence as to whether 30% disease damage is better, or an extra OB every minute (epidemic).

I pulled 17.8k on argaloth last night with the latter, so I'll probably stick with that. It'd be REALLY interesting to see if unholy presence ends up being superior though.

[kalathoran]

just tried dw frost as frost presence to 5 mill damage and took me 7:34. i did unholy presence to 5 mill damage and it took 8:18. i removed trinkets to avoid as much rng from procs as i could and only maintained horn of winter as far as buffs go since it should be in the rotation anyway as a gap filler. id love to hear other peoples results as this seems to go against the simulators, also, id like to say this was on raid target dummy in sw, the one not near any other dummies for aoe splash damage to mess up numbers.

[skryll]

I'd remove the point from butchery, and pale horse and lichborne (wtf?) and go 2/2 EW and 1/2 chilblains. EW is a great talent for Nef and chilblains will help you with any fight that you have to kite things (Magmaw, possibly Nef depending on how your strat is).

[liquidrage]

I'd remove the point from butchery, and pale horse and lichborne (wtf?) and go 2/2 EW and 1/2 chilblains. EW is a great talent for Nef and chilblains will help you with any fight that you have to kite things (Magmaw, possibly Nef depending on how your strat is).

There is no reason to say that in a general spec. When I do Mag or Omno or Mal or whatever I respec if I have a special need for chilblains or endless winter. As everyone should. You don't just take that crap in place of dps boosting talents and run around with a gimped spec all the time.

There are 2 points in Frost Row 2 that are optional to how you see fit for the encounter at hand. You might need the self heal, you might be casting int a lot, you might be stunned a lot. None are special but can help when needed.
Chilblains has no place in a frost spec except when you know you have to spec for it for a specific encounter because unlike the 2 points in Row 2 that can be moved around that you have to take somewhere, the point(s) in Chilblains are points you could put in other DPS talents. Butchery is a flat out DPS gain albeit a small one, and I would never take points out of it unless the points were needed elsewhere.

[skryll]

Butchery, especially the 1 point verison, is only a dps gain if you don't waste any RP whatsoever. You only gain 60 RP over a 5 minute fight which, while is technically a dps gain, is only so under perfect conditions.

I've never seen lichborne used in a serious PvE spec (aside from some tanking specs early on). Pale Horse is nice for flying around, but I can't think of any situation that it's been useful in PvE, whereas every melee class should be interrupting everything possible, saving 10 or 20 RP is going to be a gain if you interrupt more than once. Nef, Omnitron, Council (if you're on the boss that needs interrupts) can all take advantage of this. In fact, if you spec into EW and interrupt at least 3 times during a 5 minute fight, you have effectively matched 1/2 Butchery in RP/DPS gain.


Chilblains is much more open to interpretation. If you do anything with the adds on magmaw this is a huge pickup (especially on hard mode where you have to work with the 2nd set of adds that are being dragged around), same with nef or maloriak. To completely discount the talent is way off base, in my opinion.

[Alanar]

id go more this spec since from what i have experiance, imrpoved frost presence is terrible since you should always be in unholy presence

http://wowtal.com/#k=ewA7K92i.aei.deathknight.

nope m8 this spec is fail., u retain runic generation from Ifp, when ur in unholy press.

[liquidrage]

Butchery, especially the 1 point verison, is only a dps gain if you don't waste any RP whatsoever. You only gain 60 RP over a 5 minute fight which, while is technically a dps gain, is only so under perfect conditions.

I've never seen lichborne used in a serious PvE spec (aside from some tanking specs early on). Pale Horse is nice for flying around, but I can't think of any situation that it's been useful in PvE, whereas every melee class should be interrupting everything possible, saving 10 or 20 RP is going to be a gain if you interrupt more than once. Nef, Omnitron, Council (if you're on the boss that needs interrupts) can all take advantage of this. In fact, if you spec into EW and interrupt at least 3 times during a 5 minute fight, you have effectively matched 1/2 Butchery in RP/DPS gain.


Chilblains is much more open to interpretation. If you do anything with the adds on magmaw this is a huge pickup (especially on hard mode where you have to work with the 2nd set of adds that are being dragged around), same with nef or maloriak. To completely discount the talent is way off base, in my opinion.

I flat out said you pick Chilblains when you need it for encounters. The same for endless winter.
Over half the raids in T11 right now you won't interrupt a SINGLE thing. How is endless winter helping you in those? Oh, that's right, it's not.
Yes, I'd much rather get a free int I don't ever use then a self heal that will keep you alive during Fued, or any of the other potential places where you might actually, you know, need to be healed.

Again, there are TWO points in Row 2 that you move around as needed. I said that from post one in this thread and am still saying it.
And 2 points taken out of non-frost trees if you need Chilblains. You KNOW when you need to do these, if you're not re-speccing for them but just running around with them all the time, that's your fault not mine. I'm perfectly capable of clicking a button and spending 66g to respec the few "optional" points we have to meet the needs of a specific encounter. If that means endless winter or lichborne or chilblains that's what I do. Those are ENCOUNTER SPECIFIC, not overall part of a build.

[Varyk]

http://wowtal.com/#k=716sWDCt.aei.deathknight.iM3Sj

[skryll]

liquid, I think you're missing my overarching point here:

1/2 butchery is 60RP gain on a 5 minute fight. Unless you never waste any RP, it's not a DPS gain. If you are perfect, never make any mistakes and never waste any RP, and don't have any interrupts, it is a gain.

However, if you have 3 interrupts in a 5 minute fight you automatically equal out the RP gain of butchery, more than 3 and you see a net dps gain, this is going to be most notable on nefarion p2, but will also be helpful on omnitron and possibly maloriak. If you go 2/2 butchery, this is a different conversation altogether, though I think you could still make the argument that on Nef it is a net dps gain (chances are you will do at least 6 interrupts unless your raid is just burning down those adds quickly).

As far as lichborne goes, I don't think there is any fight where this is necessary. On the only fight where health really matters, Chimeron, a single death strike couple with some hots from your healers should easily put you over the needed 10k HP. Otherwise, if you're having to stand around and heal yourself with lichborne, the argument should really be about how ineffective your healers are, and not the talent. If I'm wrong and there's a fight that it is absolutely necessary for, please tell me, I am 12/12 normal mode progression, doing hard modes this week, but I do think I have enough real world experience to comment on this.

In regards to respeccing in and out of chilblains, I've only advocated putting one point into it, not two. One point is more than enough for all normal mode progression, though for magmaw HM you may consider 2 if you are assigned to the parasites - I'll be able to comment on this more in the next week or so, until then it's completely my guess. Chilblains can also help with add control on maloriak, nef, and thrones, and possibly omintron, though I can't remember if those adds can be slowed or not.

As a general spec though, I do think you'll find more use out of 2/2 EW, 3/3 Vir, and 1/2 Chilblains. Interrupts are used on trash, slows never hurt (usually!), and higher disease damage is never a bad thing, especially after our HB nerf. And at the end of the day, I think we can (should) both agree that the net dps difference between what we are discussing is almost negligible.