[Priest] State of Shadow - 4.1.0

[spiralout]

I agree. There have been some boss fights where I will go through 2 or 3 ENTIRE Living Bomb cycles (as well as refreshing Scorch, etc) before I ever get my first Hot Streak to pop. Does Blizzard not realize how much DPS that is costing Fire Mages? I mean, are they that f****** retarded? Come on Blizzard, use your heads for once when it comes to balancing mages. You've screwed us over for enough years as it is.

Same argument, only changed the pronouns. Drop the QQ.

Not the same argument at all, Kelesti, Zephyr was complaining about the RNG aspect of our Mastery, not just RNG hated me for a few and I didn't crit.
What did we ever do to deserve to have the most smart ass, anti-shadow mod at MMO champ as the moderator of our priest forums?
I'm sure you might have made some positive posts about shadow somewhere in here, but off the top of my head, all I remember seeing from you concerning shadow are in the vein of "stfu with the QQ", "shadow deserved that", "it's called balance", etc. IMO, stick to your holy threads.

[Arlee]

Not the same argument at all, Kelesti, Zephyr was complaining about the RNG aspect of our Mastery, not just RNG hated me for a few and I didn't crit.
What did we ever do to deserve to have the most smart ass, anti-shadow mod at MMO champ as the moderator of our priest forums?
I'm sure you might have made some positive posts about shadow somewhere in here, but off the top of my head, all I remember seeing from you concerning shadow are in the vein of "stfu with the QQ", "shadow deserved that", "it's called balance", etc. IMO, stick to your holy threads.

Those things you listed... they are not antishadow... unless you believe that people who like shadow can only ever say that anytime blizz does something that takes something away from shadow that it is awful and how dare they... I guess I am pretty antishadow too then... odd, I totally thought I loved being a shadow priest....

[Deleted]

They unfortunately didn't nerf Howling Blast/Serpent Spread, or Demonology/Starfall, so content was balanced around having those which unfortunately butchered the design, and now are having to buff to compensate.

I'm not sure about the others, but Howling Blast is taking an AoE nerf. The splash damage will now only do 50% of it's normal damage, but the damage done to the target is increased but I can't remember the percentage increase.

[spiralout]

I'm not sure about the others, but Howling Blast is taking an AoE nerf. The splash damage will now only do 50% of it's normal damage, but the damage done to the target is increased but I can't remember the percentage increase.

Gotta remember, that was said 6 and a half weeks ago when the current state of the spec thread was buried by a mod to start this current one.

@Arlee
Maybe I should have said "most smart ass, apathetic towards shadow" instead. It still stands that people were talking about the most legitimate gripe about shadow's RNG based mastery, a way to proc an orb on demand, to eliminate the ramp up time that happens on orb draught sometimes and Kelesti quoted one out of context, changed some words to make it look like a typical gripe, then responded with a stop the QQ. And this from a moderator.

[Arlee]

@Arlee
Maybe I should have said "most smart ass, apathetic towards shadow" instead. It still stands that people were talking about the most legitimate gripe about shadow's RNG based mastery, a way to proc an orb on demand, to eliminate the ramp up time that happens on orb draught sometimes and Kelesti quoted one out of context, changed some words to make it look like a typical gripe, then responded with a stop the QQ. And this from a moderator.

See I would disagree with you about the legitimacy of the gripe about how the shadow priest rng works. Personally I really like and it helps to keep things from getting mind numbingly boring. Sure it is annoying when you go awhile without proc'ing and orb. However, those long breaks don't seem to happen very often especially once you get a fight going. The hardest part is when it happens in the beginning of a fight which just increases our ramp up time. However, the lead in time on a boss fight compared to the rest of the fight is minimal. So I honestly feel like gripes over the rng are overblown. But you know people are entitled to feel that way and can certainly see why someone might choose to look at it as being completely awful.

As for the other part... you do know if you have an issue with how a moderator handles things on their forum you can always send Sunshine or Boub a pm. They are extremely helpful/patient. Also, I tend to give Kel a bit of leeway because I can imagine seeing people rehash the same stuff repeatedly can get frustrating. But if you feel like any mod is out of line, it is your right to message boub and sunshine.

[Kelesti]

@Arlee
Maybe I should have said "most smart ass, apathetic towards shadow" instead. It still stands that people were talking about the most legitimate gripe about shadow's RNG based mastery, a way to proc an orb on demand, to eliminate the ramp up time that happens on orb draught sometimes and Kelesti quoted one out of context, changed some words to make it look like a typical gripe, then responded with a stop the QQ. And this from a moderator.

And I've contributed to discussions on how it should be solved, but the severity of the opening DPS rotation is fairly miniscule when it comes to total damage done, just like Shadow Weaving was before it (race up to five, getting the perfect "opening" really didn't mean as much as the general flow once everything was going anyways).

I do agree with Arlee that the issue is overplayed, and insignificant. I also would like one way to mitigate but not eliminate the RNG aspect of Shadow Orbs (Masochism causes a Shadow Orb to also spawn on casting Death, but that's on a 45 second ICD). In a spec that hasn't really changed the way it plays in four and a half years (two and a half if you weren't Undead) Shadow Orbs are the only thing fresh going for a dynamic rotation, and I'd like to applaud Blizzard for being able to think outside the box with this one. I like it.

Call me "un-shadow" or telling me that I should stick to Holy threads doesn't really change that. Yes, I'm a little bitter when people blow things out of proportion. It's also what I get, for sticking my head into the Paladin boards more than is healthy for a person. I don't recommend it at all, but hey. I apologize if my attempt to prove a point that a poster's complaint with RNG is not only a Shadow concern. I could have, perhaps, used better words other than "Stop the QQ". I could also have continued, following through with someone lacking Elemental Overload procs and taking the better part of a minute before they get to actually use Earth Shock/Fulmination, leading into "RNG issues affect all classes. This at least keeps Shadow dynamic, let's keep things a little more reasonable here".

In which case, would have been a more professional response.

The problem is, the general public doesn't really care what I post when I disagree with them, so yes, I get a little bitter.

[Zephyr Storm]

See I would disagree with you about the legitimacy of the gripe about how the shadow priest rng works. Personally I really like and it helps to keep things from getting mind numbingly boring. Sure it is annoying when you go awhile without proc'ing and orb. However, those long breaks don't seem to happen very often especially once you get a fight going. The hardest part is when it happens in the beginning of a fight which just increases our ramp up time. However, the lead in time on a boss fight compared to the rest of the fight is minimal. So I honestly feel like gripes over the rng are overblown. But you know people are entitled to feel that way and can certainly see why someone might choose to look at it as being completely awful.

It's not insignificant when you can go multiple rotations, MULTIPLE times throughout an entire boss fight without proccing an orb. Yeah, it's happened to me, and guess what? It lowers the hell out of your dps. And it helps keep things from getting boring? So to you, fun is when the mastery of your class IS NOT working and making you a weak link in your group's chain? Sounds like a lot of NOT fun to me. Pardon me for wanting a mastery that isn't completely random. Hell, Blizzard took the time to make Ret paladins' mastery not RNG based because of the very issue that has been affecting priests all along as well. Not everyone has the same viewpoint as you in terms of spriest mastery. In fact, most spriests that I've talked to hate how our mastery works and wants Blizzard to do something about it. So in my experiences, you're definitely the minority.

---------- Post added 2011-04-26 at 02:32 AM ----------

I do agree with Arlee that the issue is overplayed, and insignificant. I also would like one way to mitigate but not eliminate the RNG aspect of Shadow Orbs (Masochism causes a Shadow Orb to also spawn on casting Death, but that's on a 45 second ICD). In a spec that hasn't really changed the way it plays in four and a half years (two and a half if you weren't Undead) Shadow Orbs are the only thing fresh going for a dynamic rotation, and I'd like to applaud Blizzard for being able to think outside the box with this one. I like it.

Randomness is not fresh or exciting or any other stupid word you choose to describe the RNG of shadow mastery. Randomness is NEVER a good thing when you're trying to do consistent dps. I'm glad you enjoy a mechanic that actually makes our class/spec WEAKER than alot of other dps classes/specs. But go right on ahead supporting Blizzard's retarded attempt at making shadow dps "fresh" or "exciting" or "fun".

[Töasty]

Just delete mastery from the game, give us more haste!

[spiralout]

Kelesti, you say that you would like one way to mitigate, not eliminate, the RNG aspect of orbs by having something, on a CD, that will generate one. That's exactly what Zephyr, whose words you twisted around and told to stop QQing, was talking about when they quoted Ceodec's earlier post about shadow issues that haven't been addressed, a way, on a CD to generate an orb, not just general QQ about RNG. I love the way shadow plays now more than ever. I went from hating our RNG mastery before Blizz finalized it, to loving the dynamics of it now and the only thing I see that would improve shadow is that way to generate an orb on CD and fix the MF bug.

I agree that the ramp up from not having an immediate orb proc is overall miniscule, but it really sucks to see that Revalation proc come and go without ever being able to get ES up to take advantage of it. Ooh, a big mastery proc, wait, umm, what's this? the mastery boost to my dots seems to not be working atm because I dont have an orb to spend...(yes, I know mastery affects the +% bonus to MB also) Not the end of the world, but it still sucks.

The reason that I say stick to the holy threads is that I don't read those. I read the threads here pertaining to shadow a lot now that spriest.com and Veil's site have slowed down and you have such a shitty attitude in the majority of those. If your attitude is the same in the holy threads, then that kind of sucks for those that read both. I've actually read replies from you, that were so blatantly smart ass and rude, that you went back and edited them without them being commented on.

I've read replies from you, that were so blatantly smart ass and rude, that people actually asked how you got Mod status here. Maybe it's just your shitty overall attitude that makes me feel like you're un-shadow, but damn, if you're going to moderate, lose it. There's too much of that crap on these forums as is.

[Zephyr Storm]

<When quoting, please don't quote an entire wall of text, to just /agree>

/cheer ^_^

I agree. For someone who plays a priest and is suppose to be supporting priests in patches, forums, etc, etc, he/she seems to hate on the shadow side of things a lot. Supporting Blizzard's antics on nerfing shadow priests or agreeing with a RNG mastery for a dps class that can be unreliable when it's most crucial, it seems like he/she WANTS shadow priests to be second rate. Makes no sense whatsoever. But maybe he/she sucks at shadow and wants everyone else to suck along with him/her. That's my best guess anyway.

And thanks for adding nothing to the discussion at all. Thanks for coming out, we'll see you around next time. --Kel

[Arlee]

It's not insignificant when you can go multiple rotations, MULTIPLE times throughout an entire boss fight without proccing an orb. Yeah, it's happened to me, and guess what? It lowers the hell out of your dps. And it helps keep things from getting boring? So to you, fun is when the mastery of your class IS NOT working and making you a weak link in your group's chain? Sounds like a lot of NOT fun to me. Pardon me for wanting a mastery that isn't completely random. Hell, Blizzard took the time to make Ret paladins' mastery not RNG based because of the very issue that has been affecting priests all along as well. Not everyone has the same viewpoint as you in terms of spriest mastery. In fact, most spriests that I've talked to hate how our mastery works and wants Blizzard to do something about it. So in my experiences, you're definitely the minority.

I agree it is possible for that scenario to happen... but more often it doesn't happen. In fact it is fairly rare for it to happen. I can understand wanting something to always happen when x happens. It would make playing the class much easier if you could always predict when you would get an orb or even that every time you have MB up you will have an orb. However, that would also be way more boring for those of use who don't like playing mindlelssly.

Yes this throttles our potential dps some.... but you are seriously mistaken and showing a lack of understanding of other dps classes if you think they aren't also throttled in some way as well. Also, if you are holding your group back you are doing something wrong. Spriests tend to lead the dps on most fights. Also, in my experience you are part of the loud minority... so now what?

Just delete mastery from the game, give us more haste!

Actually our mastery is a good part of why haste is even more important for us now. The more haste you have the quicker your sw: pain ticks and the more mf you can cast in a specific amount of time which gives you more opportunity to proc orbs. Take away mastery and haste would be less important (not saying it still wouldn't come out on top but it wouldn't but on top by as much).

[Kayona]

It's not insignificant when you can go multiple rotations, MULTIPLE times throughout an entire boss fight without proccing an orb. Yeah, it's happened to me, and guess what? It lowers the hell out of your dps. And it helps keep things from getting boring? So to you, fun is when the mastery of your class IS NOT working and making you a weak link in your group's chain? Sounds like a lot of NOT fun to me. Pardon me for wanting a mastery that isn't completely random. Hell, Blizzard took the time to make Ret paladins' mastery not RNG based because of the very issue that has been affecting priests all along as well. Not everyone has the same viewpoint as you in terms of spriest mastery. In fact, most spriests that I've talked to hate how our mastery works and wants Blizzard to do something about it. So in my experiences, you're definitely the minority.

---------- Post added 2011-04-26 at 02:32 AM ----------



Randomness is not fresh or exciting or any other stupid word you choose to describe the RNG of shadow mastery. Randomness is NEVER a good thing when you're trying to do consistent dps. I'm glad you enjoy a mechanic that actually makes our class/spec WEAKER than alot of other dps classes/specs. But go right on ahead supporting Blizzard's retarded attempt at making shadow dps "fresh" or "exciting" or "fun".

I know the issue of getting the first orb after 30sec+ but in my experience you loose "only" 100k to 200k damage which isn't a bib deal in a fight where you should do between 6.000k to over 10.000k damage overall. Yes, you loose it but the probability of not getting an orb in the first DoT-Cycle should be near 0%.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is calculated without Haste or anything else but it shows that the probability of not getting an orb is near 0% if you apply the Law of lagre numbers which I can explain in german but in english I don't know the right terms to use. Please read the wikipedia article if you don't know what this law is about.

In infinite fights, you should have an average of 2,7 orbs when you cast the first MB thus there is no need for blizzard to change the way our mastery works.

But beside this, I would like to see a CD which we can use of the GCD to get one orb. A 6min CD would be fine for the start and a second time in long fights if you have problems or to boost our damage a little bit (after loosing about 4,8% due to the nerf of DI).

[Deleted]

You dont need 15 or 18 seconds to refresh SW:P beceause you refresh it every time you cast MF. So the sooner you get the orb, the sooner you get an improved SW:P. And 12 seconds casting MF? WTF...

[Kayona]

It is 10sec MF. VT has a duration of 15sec that you need to refresh it at 13,5 and cast MB at 12.
And I don't see where I said you refresh SW:P.

These are the first 15sec of a normal fight. MF stands just for every single MF-tick (each with a 18% chance to proc an orb)

[MoanaLisa]

People would be more convincing if they would just stick to game mechanics and leave the personal BS out of their posts. Everyone has a right to an opinion, even moderators.

Grow up.

EDIT: Just to be clear so you can hate on me as well, I don't mind the RNG associated with our mastery.

Games have random elements or else they're not games. I get as frustrated as anyone when I don't proc an orb right away but I'm philosophical about the fact that this is a game we're writing about and it doesn't happen all that often. It's pretty random when it happens. QED.

Take away the randomness and it's not much more interesting than being rats in a maze (or being an arcane mage during Wrath).

Really good shadow priests embrace the RNG, adjust and make the best of whatever situation they're in. The best ways of doing that are a great thing to talk about on forums.

Coming to forums and whining/crying/bitching about design issues doesn't help anyone become a better player.

[Kelesti]

Kelesti, you say that you would like one way to mitigate, not eliminate, the RNG aspect of orbs by having something, on a CD, that will generate one. That's exactly what Zephyr, whose words you twisted around and told to stop QQing, was talking about when they quoted Ceodec's earlier post about shadow issues that haven't been addressed, a way, on a CD to generate an orb, not just general QQ about RNG.

On the contrary:

Randomness is not fresh or exciting or any other stupid word you choose to describe the RNG of shadow mastery. Randomness is NEVER a good thing when you're trying to do consistent dps. I'm glad you enjoy a mechanic that actually makes our class/spec WEAKER than alot of other dps classes/specs. But go right on ahead supporting Blizzard's retarded attempt at making shadow dps "fresh" or "exciting" or "fun".

Zephyr Storm's someone with a history that I've been keeping my eye on. If it wasn't him, well, perhaps my response would have been different.

I agree that the ramp up from not having an immediate orb proc is overall miniscule, but it really sucks to see that Revalation proc come and go without ever being able to get ES up to take advantage of it. Ooh, a big mastery proc, wait, umm, what's this? the mastery boost to my dots seems to not be working atm because I dont have an orb to spend...(yes, I know mastery affects the +% bonus to MB also) Not the end of the world, but it still sucks.

That does suck. Unfortunately, Mastery procs are kinda bleh for the spec, just like Mastery as a stat is terrible for a spec like Arms. Let's hope we get a haste proc trinket, or more SP/Intellect in the next tier of gear.

The reason that I say stick to the holy threads is that I don't read those. I read the threads here pertaining to shadow a lot now that spriest.com and Veil's site have slowed down and you have such a shitty attitude in the majority of those. If your attitude is the same in the holy threads, then that kind of sucks for those that read both. I've actually read replies from you, that were so blatantly smart ass and rude, that you went back and edited them without them being commented on.

/shrug

Because I can self-moderate? You'd be surprised how many of my own posts on the Edit page end up sitting down there on the backspace key. And I do admit I didn't hold myself professionally, above.

I've read replies from you, that were so blatantly smart ass and rude, that people actually asked how you got Mod status here. Maybe it's just your shitty overall attitude that makes me feel like you're un-shadow, but damn, if you're going to moderate, lose it. There's too much of that crap on these forums as is.

You're welcome to go through my post history a few years back, because I've been posting like this since before I had the job. You're welcome to contact Sunshine or Bibi either on IRC or through a Private Message (recommending Sunshine, Bibi's usually busy).

[Aica]

I'm sorry, but dealing with short-term orb droughts is interesting mechanics. It's one of the few ways a priest can improve his game. In fact, dealing with Empowered Shadows upkeep is the only thing new to the shadow priest rotation for, as Kelesti said, 2+ years. Making Empowered Shadows passive would mean we'd be back to TBC casting mechanics.

Long term droughts aren't fun, but a relatively short orb proccing cooldown gets rid of the short-term droughts entirely. I wonder if it would be worth it to attach orb gain to dispersion.

[Kelesti]

Dealing with 10s-20s short-term orb droughts is one of the few ways a priest can improve his game. That alone makes the orb mechanic interesting.

Long term droughts aren't fun, but a relatively short orb proccing cooldown gets rid of the short-term droughts entirely. I wonder if it would be worth it to attach orb gain to dispersion.

It wouldn't be. Because that's time spent not casting Mind Flay for chance to earn orbs with DPS, while doing 0 damage, to get an orb.

You wouldn't wnat to cast Dispersion for that orb until Empowered Shadows fell off entirely. And then, well, you just gibbed yourself out of mana/defense cooldowns to do that. Dispersion's too top heavy, and requiring cancelaura macros to make it work for an Orb is just a little too top heavy. That's why I like Death.

[Aica]

It wouldn't be. Because that's time spent not casting Mind Flay for chance to earn orbs with DPS, while doing 0 damage, to get an orb.

To be fair, you generally wouldn't want to be casting Death for that orb until ES drops entirely, either, since you can still spend some small amount of time without the ES buff up and still have a minimal dps loss. Besides, casting Death when you don't need to is almost as much a DPS loss as casting dispersion.

Granted, Dispersion is already used for too many situations already, like you've said, and I've spent so much time with dispersion macroed that I've forgotten that the /cancelaura isn't baked in.

There are some other issues with tying an orb-proc cooldown to Death, though. It's one of the spells that is generally cast when movement is required, and is used on CD on any low health targets, so if the proc is uncontrolled the orb won't always pop when it's most required. How would you track the cooldown of the proc mechanic if it's not part of an activated ability and functions more like an ICD?

If it would be an activated ability, wouldn't it be better to desynch it from Death, and just have it function similarly to Empower Rune Weapon? Something like, "Grants 3 orbs and X% of mana" on a 2+ minute cooldown.

[Arlee]

That's why I like Death.

Mmhmm, I knew it... freaking deathy....