[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[RobertoCarlos]

Agreed - and I like the WoW/HS analogy.

I still think the most open-ended spin-off possibility would be Arya going West of Westeros.

You do almost anything, even bring back people who fell off the storyline.

The Jon Snow spinoff never seemed very interesting - the WW are gone...it's just winter landscape with a brooding Snow.

Well Kit Harrington himself said it was cancelled because they "couldnt find the story" so bascially they were just gonna make a show off of game of thrones popularity and the fact kit harrington isnt batting off offers from all over hollywood and has a free schedule.

I think a cool story post game of thrones would have to be the prequel of the rebellion war. Done right its got all the elements of action, big characters, twists and turns. And would only add to the legacy if it was good because then by the time you start game of thrones with Ned stark etc the character would be even more richer and his end more tragic again.

Just like they should do a first age of the lord of the rings

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Just caught another short scene in S3 where Barristan and Daenerys are talking about what the mad king did, and how she won't become the mad king, etc. It includes a line of the mad king "burning sons in front of fathers". And then we see in S8 she does just that. Definitely a small tid bit, but more "evidence" that her decline to madness was planned all along.

There's a pretty big difference between burning sons in front of their fathers for shits and giggles and burning people you are actively at war against.

And no one has ever said that Daenerys decline into madness wasn't planned...just that it was poorly executed.

[Adamas102]

All evidence to the contrary....
You get how ironic your statement is, right? Because you seem to care a TON to continue both responding to my posts and then shitposting when you do. If you really believe the above, stop responding. We'll all wait while you own-goal yourself again.

It's a thread that's both for the shows AND the books, you moron. When I saw this thread pop up on my front page I expected more talk about spinoffs, not more of your nonsense. "Hey guys! I noticed that this character talked about something in one season and then several seasons later this character did something completely different and unrelated. Connection! All planned!" After almost 2 months of no posts that's really what you wanted to kick things off with? It's like you're a sucker for punishment.

To start with the idea of Daenerys going crazy being "planned", no one is arguing against that. I think we're all pretty sure that's what D&D had in mind (and may even by what GRRM has in mind, though we do know that the showrunners deviated from a lot of his plans). The argument has always been around whether or not that arc was set up and execute well. The answer to that has always been a resounding NO. They spent most of the earlier seasons sticking fairly closely to the books with no indication that Dany suffered from schizophrenic delusions like her father or had any auditory triggers that led to uncontrollable rage or that her response to losing someone she loved was to murder thousands of innocents, instead showing her learning about and overcoming the grim legacy of her family while surrounding herself with trusted advisors that she listened to and becoming a champion of the common people, and then in the final season they decided to go with "well, she just got so sad that she decided to overturn all her previous character development and just go full on psychopath".

You misread what I said, and you don't understand foreshadowing. Danny didn't say she wouldn't do it, Barristan said that's what her father did. That scene, as well as many others, show her descent was planned and justified.

You're pointing to something that happens on screen as a precursor of something that happens later. You didn't say "foreshadowing" but that's exactly what you're trying to claim. You've never understood how foreshadowing is handled in this story (both the books and the show).

Barristan tells her what her father did. She says "I'm not my father". That is very much her saying that she wouldn't do what her father did. How the fuck can you not connect THOSE dots when your entire shtick is finding connections where none exist?

In no way does that dialogue show "her descent was planned and justified". The importance of the conversation pertains to Dany finding out that the rumors about her father's madness were true and not just propaganda. That's it. Remember, she never met her father, and she would only have known of him from whatever rumors she heard or lies her brother told her. You also conveniently left off the rest of what Barristan said, about the Mad King burning people with wildfire and laughing as they died (VERY important details pertaining to his madness), neither of which she did. You're just grasping at straws.

She literally burned a son in front of her father. It's another small piece of the overall puzzle clearly demonstrating her descent into madness was always planned.

When did she burn a son in front of her[sic] father? Are you referring to the Tarly's? If so she didn't burn one in front of the other, she executed them side by side. There's nothing "mad" about what she did there. And before you start with, "it's close enough" it really isn't. As explain both by me and by Bomber there's a HUGE difference between relishing in pain and torture compared to dealing with enemy combatants who after given options DECIDE THEMSELVES to face execution.

That was also such a dumb, pointless scene. Tyrion has no good reason to be upset about it. Randyll was an unpopular dick who had already proved his allegiances were fluid when he joined the Lannisters, Dickon was barely a character, and Tyrion should know that there are other Tarly heirs who might be more likely to come to Danaerys' side. There was really no strategic or story relevant reason to keep them alive. But of course by this point this was just part of Tyrion's "dumbing down" arc.

I noticed how you didn't respond to the last person who brought up the ending.

Yeah, Vardoc also said some pretty dumb stuff. A metaphor for how people are blinded by looks? What a silly thing to say.

As for pointing to that line from season 2, that just proves that they also have no understanding of character arcs or how foreshadowing is actually handled in these stories. No, her anger when she is still trying to cultivate her power and is being taken advantage of by almost everyone around her isn't an indication of her being crazy. In fact, the very scene you referenced is an important part of her arc AWAY from how she understands her Targaryen legacy as it's the scene where she learns the truth about her father and rejects that legacy.

[Varodoc]

Agreed - and I like the WoW/HS analogy.

I still think the most open-ended spin-off possibility would be Arya going West of Westeros.

You do almost anything, even bring back people who fell off the storyline.

The Jon Snow spinoff never seemed very interesting - the WW are gone...it's just winter landscape with a brooding Snow.

The Jon Snow spinoff just sounded like desperate wanking from the fanboys who wanted Jon Snow to be the Big Hero.

- They wanted Bran to suddenly go evil and be the bad guy;

- They wanted Jon Snow to come south, kill Bran, and become king;

- They waned Daenerys to somehow be revived ????

- They wanted "Somehow the Night King returned"

Basically, they wanted the Jon Snow spinoff to be Season 8 2.0 with all the fan-service endings that the actual season didn't get (Jon as king, Daenerys happy ending, epic 1v1 between Jon Snow and Night King, Bran not the king).

Just another spin-off that would have lived in GoT's shadow and nothing more.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, Vardoc also said some pretty dumb stuff. A metaphor for how people are blinded by looks? What a silly thing to say.

As for pointing to that line from season 2, that just proves that they also have no understanding of character arcs or how foreshadowing is actually handled in these stories. No, her anger when she is still trying to cultivate her power and is being taken advantage of by almost everyone around her isn't an indication of her being crazy. In fact, the very scene you referenced is an important part of her arc AWAY from how she understands her Targaryen legacy as it's the scene where she learns the truth about her father and rejects that legacy.

She "rejected that legacy" and yet she started a war against Westeros and burned a father and a son to ashes?

Something doesn't add up.

[Syegfryed]

The Jon Snow spinoff just sounded like desperate wanking from the fanboys who wanted Jon Snow to be the Big Hero.

He was meant to be the "big hero", isn't he stark AND targeryan? the literal "ice and fire" stuff?

I still think at this point is not that much important cause Martin will never finish it the series anyway

[Varodoc]

He was meant to be the "big hero", isn't he stark AND targeryan? the literal "ice and fire" stuff?

I still think at this point is not that much important cause Martin will never finish it the series anyway

Well, No, that's just what the Targaryen with their ego and arrogance believe.

Of course the arrogant, self-centred, and egotistical Targaryen would think that the "big hero" has to be someone from their bloodline.

[Syegfryed]

Well, No, that's just what the Targaryen with their ego and arrogance believe.

Of course the arrogant, self-centred, and egotistical Targaryen would think that the "big hero" has to be someone from their bloodline.

I mean, it is literally in the name of the chronicles, the chronicles of ice and fire, and Martin was setting up Jon Snow for quite some time to be the "big hero" or big shot in the end.

Someone need to stay at the top eventually in the end and George always work with LOOOOOOONG foreshadow and pays off

[MCMLXXXII]

I mean, it is literally in the name of the chronicles, the chronicles of ice and fire, and Martin was setting up Jon Snow for quite some time to be the "big hero" or big shot in the end, someone need to stay at the top eventually in the end, and George always work with LOOOOOOONG foreshadow and pays off

Exactly this.

[Varodoc]

I mean, it is literally in the name of the chronicles, the chronicles of ice and fire, and Martin was setting up Jon Snow for quite some time to be the "big hero" or big shot in the end.

Someone need to stay at the top eventually in the end and George always work with LOOOOOOONG foreshadow and pays off

Nah. The only relevant GRRM content is that the Targaryens are self-deluded by dreams and think they are the big heroes.

A Stark killing the White Walkers is a perfect and poetic middle finger to the Targaryens and their self-delusion and saviour complex, and is also in line with the idea that prophecies are fickle and ambiguous.

[Syegfryed]

Nah. The only relevant GRRM content is that the Targaryens are self-deluded by dreams and think they are the big heroes.

A Stark killing the White Walkers is a perfect and poetic middle finger to the Targaryens and their self-delusion and saviour complex, and is also in line with the idea that prophecies are fickle and ambiguous.

Jon is a stark, so it is part of the prophecy anyway.

And he never said the prophecies are false either, they are touching that kind of stuff in house of the dragon where they show to have some magic power due to mingling their blood with the dragons

There is no way that he did not set Jon to be the "big shot" in the end, with how things were going. Its just that we will never see it happening.

Just as a sidenote, is funny that you are talking like that about the targaeryans... when they are meant to be George version of elves.

[Varodoc]

Jon is a stark, so it is part of the prophecy anyway.

And he never said the prophecies are false either, they are touching that kind of stuff in house of the dragon where they show to have some magic power due to mingling their blood with the dragons

There is no way that he did not set Jon to be the "big shot" in the end, with how things were going. Its just that we will never see it happening.

I didn't say the prophecy is false, I said it is ambiguous and fickle.

In-universe, this "prophecy of ice and fire" was made by the Valyrian smiths who carved it into the dagger. Of course the Valyrians would think that the big hero must come from their bloodline. Of course they would think that a Valyrian must rule the kingdoms.

And again, this is what you and the rest miss. That the "prophecy" in-universe is interpreted from the Targaryen perspective, thus it is biased. They couldn't foresee someone not of the Targaryen bloodline killing the White Walkers, which is why Arya ultimately works to highlight the overarching narrative that prophecies are fickle and ambiguous.

Just as a sidenote, is funny that you are talking like that about the targaeryans... when they are meant to be George version of elves.

Not really. Targaryens are still humans. The closest races to your typical high fantasy Elves would be the Others (who are fair and beautiful in the books).

Last I checked, Warcraft Elves were not nearly as deluded and egotistical as the Targaryens. Literally starting a continent-wide war because a dream said so.

Did Warcraft Elves ever start a war because a dream told them so? I don't think you realize just how deluded and egoistical the Targaryens are.

[Syegfryed]

I didn't say the prophecy is false, I said it is ambiguous and fickle.

In-universe, this "prophecy of ice and fire" was made by the Valyrian smiths who carved it into the dagger. Of course the Valyrians would think that the big hero must come from their bloodline. Of course they would think that a Valyrian must rule the kingdoms.

And again, this is what you and the rest miss. That the "prophecy" in-universe is interpreted from the Targaryen perspective, thus it is biased. They couldn't foresee someone not of the Targaryen bloodline killing the White Walkers, which is why Arya ultimately works to highlight the overarching narrative that prophecies are fickle and ambiguous.

Ok, and who else would fit the prophecy that is not someone of ice and fire? aka stark and targaeryan? its ok to be skeptical, but some stuff is just how it is

The thing about being ambiguous is because its not someone that is just targaryan, and they though it would be then, but its basically a stark with "fire", which Jon fits

Not really. Targaryens are still humans. The closest races to your typical high fantasy Elves would be the Others (who are fair and beautiful in the books).

George Targeryans are meant to be a "dark mirror" or tolkien elves, so they are based on the elves, but with a twist

Last I checked, Warcraft Elves were not nearly as deluded and egotistical as the Targaryens. Literally starting a continent-wide war because a dream said so.

Did Warcraft Elves ever start a war because a dream told them so? I don't think you realize just how deluded and egoistical the Targaryens are.

they did star one because they though some trees were sacred, and before because they want to live in other people territories, not a dream but i would say they are as much deluded and egotistical.

[Mehrunes]

Secondly, Dany didn't "burn sons in front of fathers". If you're talking about her burning the Tarlys then you're talking about something completely different. Aerys burned people for fun, or because they annoyed him. THAT'S madness. Executing enemy combatants after giving them an option to change allegiances is in no way the same thing.

Not to mention that Tarly was burned alongside his son and not in front of him. Also, putting aside @cubby being deliberately obtuse as to what the actual criticism in regards to Daenerys' fall from grace (i.e. the pacing and overall execution), I'm sorry, but how is this supposed to be some grand revelation even if cubby managed to get the relative directions of fathers to sons right? The prospect of Daenerys becoming like her father was force-fed to the viewers with repeated mentions of things like how gods throw a coin whenever a Targaryen is born.

As for the Jon Snow spin-off, what surprises me is the development even lasted this long.

[eschatological]

In-universe, this "prophecy of ice and fire" was made by the Valyrian smiths who carved it into the dagger. Of course the Valyrians would think that the big hero must come from their bloodline. Of course they would think that a Valyrian must rule the kingdoms.

Lots of prophecies in ASoIaF are thought to be "bogus" by the reader and worked for/against by various characters only for them to fail, but the prophecies generally end up true.

Some examples that are not from "arrogant Valyrians:"

1. Cersei's prophecy from a witch about how she will birth 3 children and her husband hundreds, and all her children will wear golden crowns and die. She becomes overly protective, working overtime to never have harm to her kids...but the prophecy comes true.

2. The witch who tells Dany she'll never have a kid again until the "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before." In the books, this prophecy is thought of as a "never again" kind of thing by Dany, but unknown to her many of these elements are coming true: a Martell of Sunspear dies ("sets") in the east, the house of the seafaring Ironborn has dried up with no true heir, and the Mountain has become a dry, undead creature who will inevitably fall. And there's some suggestion that Jon is magical as fuck and may be able to get her pregnant again.

3. Speaking of Jon/Dany, the prophecy of Azor Ahai suggests (which is a R'hllor prophecy, not a Valyrian one specifically) the Prince who was Promised will be able ot awake dragons from stone (something Dany has already done), and will forge a sword of living flame. In the books/show, Melisandre thinks/tries to make this person Stannis, but fails, while the prophecy seems to be coming true elsewhere.

4. All of Bran's 3ER visions are a sort of prophecy inasmuch as they tell the future....and it comes true. His father dies, and he sees it beforehand. The sea comes to Winterfell, and Theon invades. And so on, and so forth.

It's pretty much a theme of the books - prophecies which are twisted and disbelieved and worked against - but come true nonetheless, though not always how the believers in those prophecies believe.

[Varodoc]

It's pretty much a theme of the books - prophecies which are twisted and disbelieved and worked against - but come true nonetheless, though not always how the believers in those prophecies believe.

Yeah, and the prophecy came true, simply not the way the Targaryen supremacist believed (aka it wasn't a Targaryen who ended the Long Night, nor was a Targaryen ruling the kingdoms).

What is the problem here?

[RobertoCarlos]

Yeah, and the prophecy came true, simply not the way the Targaryen supremacist believed (aka it wasn't a Targaryen who ended the Long Night, nor was a Targaryen ruling the kingdoms).

What is the problem here?

It seems like you're forgetting the TV show writers subverted expectations instead of living up to said prophecy.

Everyone expected Jon to have the epic battle with the witch king sorry I mean the tall Norwegian dude with blue eyes and a weak chest because the red priestess mentioned something about eye colors back in season 2 so of course it had to be arya and not Jon. Makes total sense...

I still don't understand why the brothers without banners came into the story at all. Like their literal only reason to exist was to show off resurrection and there was no point in Jon being brought back anyway

[Jastall]

Game of Thrones was the most popular and iconic TV show of the 2010s.

House of the Dragon and Dunk and Egg TV shows of the 2020s are completely living in the shadow of GoT and are trying desperately to milk the brand, but they will never be nearly as popular or iconic as GoT in the 2010s.

Despite the hate S8 gets from the sheeple who named their kid "Khaleesi", GoT remains a highly-profitable brand or they wouldn't be making two spin-off shows about it.

I was a Stannis fan if anything, and even if he met an ignominious fate he still wasn't done half as dirty as Dany was. At least his final moments were as himself, rather than being turned into Literally Hitler so the show could speedrun its conclusion and D&D could move on to fail to make something else.

[Varodoc]

I was a Stannis fan if anything, and even if he met an ignominious fate he still wasn't done half as dirty as Dany was. At least his final moments were as himself, rather than being turned into Literally Hitler so the show could speedrun its conclusion and D&D could move on to fail to make something else.

Uhm, all Daenerys did in the final episode was repeat the exact same speech she made in S6.

Did you seriously think that GRRM would vindicate and validate Daenerys' motives when the entire story is a critique of absolute monarchy?

[RobertoCarlos]

Uhm, all Daenerys did in the final episode was repeat the exact same speech she made in S6.

Did you seriously think that GRRM would vindicate and validate Daenerys' motives when the entire story is a critique of absolute monarchy?

No...

Even nerfed tyrion finally clicked she was up to no good because they threw all sublety and nuance out the door and made her hitler and made it obvious she had gone bat shit because her translator got killed

[Varodoc]

No...

Even nerfed tyrion finally clicked she was up to no good because they threw all sublety and nuance out the door and made her hitler and made it obvious she had gone bat shit because her translator got killed

What do you mean "No"? I am objectively correct. It's literally the exact same speech:





Again, the entire point of Daenerys story is how easily good looks and heroic music can trick the masses. She literally said that they would "tear down their stone houses" and no one cared just because Generic Heroic music was playing on the background.

What happened in S8 is that she, well, tore down their stone houses. Like she clearly said she would in S6.