[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[RoninaThorstone]

Wildstar's 40 man raiding scene is a bit brave on part of the development team. They're basically aiming the game at a crowd which has dwindled a lot and competing directly with WoW, and Blizzard's PvE encounter development has benefited massively from time (something Wildstar wont have the benefit from). It's going to be tough. Not sure it'll even work out.

I suspect that it will be one of the few draws of wildstar. Where else will you get 40 man raiding? Even if it's a niche market, they will have a market.

[wombinator04]

Well I hope the 40 man raids are good. I really want to experience 40 man raids, I never played vanilla WoW. I don't really like PVE, but playing with 39 other people will make anything fun. Also I love chaotic situations in games, and in my mind, 40 man raids will ooze that.

[Remilia]

I suspect that it will be one of the few draws of wildstar. Where else will you get 40 man raiding? Even if it's a niche market, they will have a market.

EQ1 if you want 54(?) man raiding.

[Floopa]

The problem is the raiding content though? Can it compete with WoW? There are only very few people in the world who can actually say for certain yes or no regarding that question.

[Kelimbror]

Well I hope the 40 man raids are good. I really want to experience 40 man raids

No you don't. You don't know this, but you really don't.

I never played vanilla WoW. I don't really like PVE, but playing with 39 other people will make anything fun.

...no it won't. I fear for your sanity when this game comes out. It may drive you to rage for more dots over Ventrilo.

Also I love chaotic situations in games, and in my mind, 40 man raids will ooze that.

It will ooze 25 people getting carried by 15 people...just like in vanilla wow. While I think it's cool they are going to try it, 40 man raiding is just small scale raiding with arbitrary requirements. Moar damage, moar dps, moar dots, less space. There's nothing inherently more difficult in the mechanics that requires an advanced level of skill just because there are more bodies in a room.

It will be fun at first, but over time the difficulty in sustaining that number of people combined with the aggravation they bring a raid group will invoke nightmares from ex WoW players and the will go running back to LFR's open arms.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Basically what I said a few pages back: they will attract a bunch of young players who have heard about the "glories of vanilla wow" and a bunch of old players who "miss those days." Both will realize 40 man raids suck the moment they actually have to start recruiting, and frankly I doubt WS will even have enough people to support a "niche market."

[Darksoldierr]

Yes, 40man raiding's biggest problem, is that you need 40~ people online at the same time and want to do the same thing. I loved vanilia, but 25man raiding was a good decision overall.

[Deleted]

Basically what I said a few pages back: they will attract a bunch of young players who have heard about the "glories of vanilla wow" and a bunch of old players who "miss those days." Both will realize 40 man raids suck the moment they actually have to start recruiting, and frankly I doubt WS will even have enough people to support a "niche market."

Depends on the grind to be able to take part. As far as I understand that old AQ and Naxx required pretty hardcore gearing as in, recruiting was much harder. The easier they make participation the more people will join.
And... scrap the subfee tbh :P

Other than that they also offer pvp, and there is always starving pvp players out there... since no mmo handle pvp well enough to keep most of them :P

... but still... scrap subfee for a living playerbase for christ sake :P

[Ashana Darkmoon]

In a decent guild (with reasonable luck) you could gear up a recruit to a capable level in few weeks, less if they were a healer (just because gear wasn't as important). Ilvl inflation wasn't nearly as absurd as it was now, so even if you just plowed through a raid tier 1-2 back the gear was still ok.

Recruiting was still awful despite that. You need a massive, massive server to be able to support 40 man raiding (most guilds only progressed through Naxx once server xfers were put in). And frankly in the era of LFR and whatnot, I think even less people will be motivated to put up with the logistical insanity.

I will give them some kudos for going all the way though - big raids, leaderboards, lots of things hardcores have been complaining about for a long time. But I suspect that the noise is louder than the signal (as usual) and the model will require some serious rethinking early on.

[Deleted]

In a decent guild (with reasonable luck) you could gear up a recruit to a capable level in few weeks, less if they were a healer (just because gear wasn't as important). Ilvl inflation wasn't nearly as absurd as it was now, so even if you just plowed through a raid tier 1-2 back the gear was still ok.

Recruiting was still awful despite that. You need a massive, massive server to be able to support 40 man raiding (most guilds only progressed through Naxx once server xfers were put in). And frankly in the era of LFR and whatnot, I think even less people will be motivated to put up with the logistical insanity.

I will give them some kudos for going all the way though - big raids, leaderboards, lots of things hardcores have been complaining about for a long time. But I suspect that the noise is louder than the signal (as usual) and the model will require some serious rethinking early on.

Sure it's louder, we saw that in beginning of cata when raids and heroics were hard and participation low and people left :P Didnt work, because at the end of the day even hardcores adapt.
Make megaservers, we dont need trillions of smaller servers... Eve online spirit ftw Or have free server guesting or ability to group with people on other servers. There are always ways to make things easier, spamming trade for members is only like 10 people out of a million that enjoy :P Nah, I dont have any numbers on it, but most people dont find that amusing.
But is there really a need to make 40-man raid the hardest of endgame content? I think that if it's on a level that it takes place on the "gearing up" level people might need it to do later raids like 25-man.
I still believe that easier participation, and sure... easier ways to recruit will help. People are lazy today but game developers can adapt to that.

[Arlee]

Well I hope the 40 man raids are good. I really want to experience 40 man raids, I never played vanilla WoW. I don't really like PVE, but playing with 39 other people will make anything fun. Also I love chaotic situations in games, and in my mind, 40 man raids will ooze that.

I am mixed about it. On the one hand I really enjoyed 40 man raiding, it was a ton of fun and it really did feel epic fighting with that many people.

On the other hand I remember all the extra time I had to put into rosters, and making sure things were balanced, and begging people to play certain specs because it's what the raid needed. Then plus it isn't just 40 people, you need alternates too because even in the hardest core guild life happens and you need to rotate people. And you have to make sure the alternates get in enough to keep them happy, and that they get good enough gear that when they need to come in on a progression night it's not hindering your raid.

Plus if you are a good raid leader you'll work on developing a rapport with each and everyone of those people, and that takes a lot of time. Plus you need that so they trust you to not dick them over when you need to ask them sit out or do something you know they won't really want to do. Additionally you need that for when issues arise, and trust me with 40+ all trying to raids issues will arise. There were some days where I literally would spend my entire time to play (and this was back when I was playing 8+ hours a day playing) on dealing with interpersonal issues. Granted a lot of that had to do with our guild leader not really being good, but still. No matter how careful you are things happen.

Plus then you have the loot aspect. No matter what system you use if the leaders are trying to at all be "fair" loot will take a bunch of extra time. Back then we use sum zero dkp and I remember it would take a good hour to update everyone's dkp after raids so when people looked at the website it would be up to date. Sure there are better tools for it now, and probably better systems, but like I said trying to be "fair" to 40 people is not a small task at all.

I recognize that my experiences taint my outlook, and yea if you aren't one of the people organizing it is easier on you. But it can still be pretty stressful. So I am mixed on if I want to pursue 40 man raiding or not. I hope it does workout for Wildstar though.

[Keren]

I am mixed about it. On the one hand I really enjoyed 40 man raiding, it was a ton of fun and it really did feel epic fighting with that many people.

On the other hand I remember all the extra time I had to put into rosters, and making sure things were balanced, and begging people to play certain specs because it's what the raid needed. Then plus it isn't just 40 people, you need alternates too because even in the hardest core guild life happens and you need to rotate people. And you have to make sure the alternates get in enough to keep them happy, and that they get good enough gear that when they need to come in on a progression night it's not hindering your raid.

Plus if you are a good raid leader you'll work on developing a rapport with each and everyone of those people, and that takes a lot of time. Plus you need that so they trust you to not dick them over when you need to ask them sit out or do something you know they won't really want to do. Additionally you need that for when issues arise, and trust me with 40+ all trying to raids issues will arise. There were some days where I literally would spend my entire time to play (and this was back when I was playing 8+ hours a day playing) on dealing with interpersonal issues. Granted a lot of that had to do with our guild leader not really being good, but still. No matter how careful you are things happen.

Plus then you have the loot aspect. No matter what system you use if the leaders are trying to at all be "fair" loot will take a bunch of extra time. Back then we use sum zero dkp and I remember it would take a good hour to update everyone's dkp after raids so when people looked at the website it would be up to date. Sure there are better tools for it now, and probably better systems, but like I said trying to be "fair" to 40 people is not a small task at all.

I recognize that my experiences taint my outlook, and yea if you aren't one of the people organizing it is easier on you. But it can still be pretty stressful. So I am mixed on if I want to pursue 40 man raiding or not. I hope it does workout for Wildstar though.

I can fully understand those feelings!
[+] really epic and chaotic feeling
[-] kindergarden to organise
[-] it admin to maintain lootsystems
[-] murning about how 20man would be better/faster/easier/has more glory/competition etc. whatever

I would only join a 40man raid if I will have no jobs to do in organisation. Iv'e nothing against raid leading, but guild- and dkp organisation are the hell :/

[Intropid]

I want to ask a question, that has been lingering in other forums and I'm curious on some champions opinions on this subject.

Will the art style hinder the game in any capacity or will it help it?

The art style seems to have many mixed feelings regarding it. Most people call it "Cartoony" which they aren't wrong, although I disagree that it will hinder mostly because of one major point

World of Warcraft has a cartoony style. Wildstar is taking it to the next-level, completely exaggerating. Some people are calling it a "Pixar Style" which I think best describes it. A realistic and serious look would look...disturbing with what the kind of over-the top wackiness the game is going for.
"Shit's about to get fucking real." Can't picture a real human being say that, although I could picture a 12 foot robot saying that.

Do you think the art style will hinder the game?

[Kelimbror]

Can't picture a real human being say that

I guess you've never been to Jersey.

[Arlee]

Not in any significant way imo. Sure there are some people who won't play it because they don't like the art style, but that would be true of any style they picked. The things which will make or break the game have a lot more to do with gameplay than art style.

[Intropid]

Not in any significant way imo. Sure there are some people who won't play it because they don't like the art style, but that would be true of any style they picked. The things which will make or break the game have a lot more to do with gameplay than art style.

Yeah, you're right. Although you'd be surprised how many people like to nit-pick especially at MMO's. On what's been shown to the public on combat, it's fairly innovative although I don't think the average consumer will do that much research. Most people are diverting there eyes at:

1) The payment model.
2) How similar it is to World of Warcraft.
3) The payment model.
4) How similar it is to World of Warcraft.

[Deleted]

its so much easier now with addon's to tell whose being carried in raids.

Having two or three 20 man raiding guilds work together for the 40 man's will make raiding easier too imo.

[Kelimbror]

Yeah, you're right. Although you'd be surprised how many people like to nit-pick especially at MMO's. On what's been shown to the public on combat, it's fairly innovative although I don't think the average consumer will do that much research. Most people are diverting there eyes at:

1) The payment model.
2) How similar it is to World of Warcraft.
3) The payment model.
4) How similar it is to World of Warcraft.

Another theory is that people can see how the combat isn't that innovative and have iterated on why for multiple pages now. There's also how their stated design intentions haven't matched what was seen in beta to the point that they admitted they needed an extra year and to basically redesign the game that had been experienced so far.

It's amazing how the average MMO-C poster will criticize others without doing that much research.

[Intropid]

Another theory is that people can see how the combat isn't that innovative and have iterated on why for multiple pages now. There's also how their stated design intentions haven't matched what was seen in beta to the point that they admitted they needed an extra year and to basically redesign the game that had been experienced so far.

It's amazing how the average MMO-C poster will criticize others without doing that much research.

Kind of de-railing just real quick. One should not criticize another on doing research on a game or even a particular thing that could potentially swallow some money and or time. It's called being a smart-consumer P:

Anyway, what they are calling "active combat" is innovative. Although not to the extent that the developers are saying it is. Seems like this active form of combat is the new style of mmo's going for:

- Active.
- Few number of hotkeys.
- Having to consistently move no matter the role. (which i'm fine with. you shouldn't be able to smoke a cig or watch tv when raiding)
- Instead of 30 abilities, you have 5-7 abilities that you actually use. I mean let's be real, in WoW out of your tons of abilities that you have on your bars. How many do you actually use?

All of this has been done before. Although Wildstar is innovating it further, although not "THIS IS COMPLETELY NEW GUYS. LOOK AT THIS. LOOK AT THAT" kind of attitude.

[zito]

- Active.
- Few number of hotkeys.
- Having to consistently move no matter the role. (which i'm fine with. you shouldn't be able to smoke a cig or watch tv when raiding)
- Instead of 30 abilities, you have 5-7 abilities that you actually use. I mean let's be real, in WoW out of your tons of abilities that you have on your bars. How many do you actually use?

By your definition, any game with combat mechanics fits your definition of active combat meaning Every. Single. Game.